Weekender XLBS: The Daring Raid Of St Nazaire & What’s Next For Warlord Games?
March 26, 2017 by dignity
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Happy Sunday!!
St Nazaire huh? OK – I’ll roll with it for now,but you’d better have a damned good justification and nail it historically.
Uh-oh… Warren and historical accuracy? Unless Jim has been sat at the other end of a line with a monitor and a button he can press every time Warren mangles history, a button that delivers a nasty electric shock. That is how Jim’s going to operate isn’t it?
My justification is i think it will make for one of the most interesting ‘gamifications’ of a mission out there.
There are distinct phases to the operation and sooo much going on, its challeging but i think coukd be a really meaty scenario!
And the opportunity to add in some custom game mechanics is pretty irresistable!
Interesting idea. I will be interested to see how the naval and landing parts are meshed together on one or more tables
The challenges are really interesting in this obviously scale (we’ll run 15mm this time) and ratio (got to bring the mini count down to a managable level) are big ones, but also working out the various objectives that made up the operation… then the crucial aspects of what timeline events do we run on rails (is it a given the destroyer makes it, or detonates when it did) and what events do we gamify.
@warzan If your doing it in 15mm i suggest a Skirmish rule set like Chain of command or dropping bolt action down to 15mm.
there are at least two scenarios
1. the approach with the boats and the Campbeltown see how many men you can get there,
2, the fight on the docks
Getting the Campbeltown built will be interesting there is a 1:600 scale model available, but 1:100 scale is frigging huge for a game,
You could do the appraoch in a smaller scale maybe 1:350/6mm and then the fight in the docks at 15mm
I think the plan is to keep it all on one table if at all possible. I’m currently scoping out the size and makeup of the table based on reference maps and aerial photos of the time, based on a 1:100, 8×4 table. That said, having a much smaller map off to the side that represents, tracks, and resolves the initial approach might be a good idea. I hesitate to make this a full part of the game because it’s almost entirely one sided. The Germans shooting at the British Campbeltown and MLs, and not much shooting back (mostly machine… Read more »
the Avalon Hill solo game version of the raid had some interesting mechanics on the ship’s approach!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scjXp7Vg6Ec
Well if Donald Featherstone, one of the pioneers and soulfathers of our wargaming hobby, says it’s one of the coolest raids then OK.
Donald often agrees with me 😉 lol
Justification? The justification is that it’s awesome. 😀 Granted, some of the construction and game design elements will pose a significant challenge. Building the destroyer at 1:100 scale would actually be easy enough (been scratch-building WW2 warships since I was 11 … and that was a LOOOOONG time ago). It’s getting across the Atlantic that will be tough. Also, building those twelve Motor Launches will be a bit of a challenge. Where I really sympathize with the team is the construction of the port itself. Urban boards are always tough because of the number of buildings. Also, this will be… Read more »
If its 15mm plenty of train scenary available for dockyards at HO scale I think is equiv to 15mm. And why not do a 12′ x 4′ table, to fit everything on, plus you would have the ability to split into 3 4×4 battles to play concurrently…
It’s close, @nakchak . I think HO scale is 1:87, and 15mm is technically 1/100. Might be close enough, though. I would say it is, since infrastructure at a port tends to be oversized and in such a case the 1:87 “discrepancy” would actually work to our advantage. 😀
Great idea!
Here is a thought, make the table U shaped with the water area open for people to get in and around. With the set up area that the boot camps use there would be lots of room to put it together. Seeing as there really wouldn’t be any reason to start the game until the attack is in full swing, as the defense would easily just decide to bombard the ship early.
Thus the ship is beached on the gate and the launches have landed… now it is time to get to work.
St Nazaire was the one that has space marines in it wasn’t it? 😀
Happy Sunday
Happy sunday!
Lovely 4ground building, looking forward to seeing the whole range and the game. Also, if I get into some fantasy tabletop rpg, I’d really like to try the Fabled Realm setting and mix it up with some minis battle 🙂
Tell you what, one of the best tellings of the St Nazaire raid I’ve seen was by (surprisingly) Jeremy Clarkson as part of his War Stories series. Brilliant stuff.
Yep its flippin fabulous, im just hoovering up stuff on the raid at the moment and it is one of the best, there is also a really good behind the scenes about making that episode 🙂
I think there was a film starring Lloyd Bridges back in the day as well. Can;t for the life of me remember the name of it though….
Funnily enough though I finally got around to watching the documentary Channel 4 did on the Dambuster mission to sink Tirpitz after it was deployed to Norway following the destruction of St Nazaire’s dry-dock.
Another extraordinary operation, but one thing that blew my mind: as the Lancasters approached on their bombing run Tirpitz started off by elevating it’s main guns and using it’s 1t shells as the preliminary AA barrage….
Attack on the iron coast 🙂
Attack on the iron coast is the movie of the raid..
Thanks for that. Just watched it! Brilliant stuff!
Can’t wait to see the 4Ground stand at Salute this year.
Warlord was taking about modern the other day…. could try can get the rights for Ghost recon etc ? anyway off to watch the show
The late Great Donald Featherstone, who sadly passed away in 2013, is widely regarded as the Father of modern wargaming, 1960’s onwards! He courageously served during WW2, as did many of his contemporaries who published books and articles on wargaming. There is a vast wealth of useful gaming and historical data to be gleaned from his 40+ publications. Enjoy at leisure and remember, this man was writing about gaming long before there were any big manufacturing companies on the subject.
I would add Jim Dunnigan as one of the”Gods of Wargaming,” one of the giants of Avalon Hill during its 1960s-70s glory days. Designer of PanzerBlitz in 1969 (originally “State Farm 69” and “Tactical Game 3”, the first modular, scenario-driven wargame commonly available to the public (sold 300,000 copies). Seriously designed over 160 other games. Founded SPI, the company that is home of many of the most accurate, properly-scaled, intellectually challenging wargames ever designed. Saved Strategy & Tactics Magazine, which has been running since 1960s and has a wargame in every single issue, and has now spawned sister publications World… Read more »
I think we are indebted to a lot of people who all progressed wargaming to what it is today either independently or in small groups. People like Scruby,Bath, Griffiths,Grant to name but a few
I promised myself no more kickstarters for a while but them Iron crow dwarves look amazing.
Happy Sunday Guys. OMG I love those Warlord Paras.
Happy Sunday guys, @johnlyons nice job on the Khador buddy and good luck with the fourth attempt at getting into the game. @dignity great job too on your WM. Really liking the leader character and I like the idea of the different bases for quick selection when looking to give an intro. What are you thinking for basing her? @brennon I have to admit in recent years my card gaming has slowly chaged. We were all MTG Commander players who would have them on us whenever we went to a hobby event or for in the evenings at Salute. Now… Read more »
British Airborne *dribble*
Totally awesome shrine!!!!!!
My first knowledge of St Nazaire was I think it was letrasets action diorama with extra large background and rub on decals
Fun days
Ah it was Remus
http://www.action-transfers.com/html/picturama/nazaire.shtml
Hmmmm – some slightly exaggerated imagery there. The ship has grown in size considerably and has managed to bend those drydock gates. 😉
Good grief, @coxjul , I see what you mean. On that last image on the first page, Campbeltown is the size of King George V!
I remember some of these rub-off decal sheets when I was a kid (like 8 years old). Damn, what a nice little, half-remembered memory. Thanks, @torros!
There is an old black and white movie about the raid on St Nazaire. Also wouldn’t some of the individual aspects of the raid work well as 25mm scenarios.
How is that not an epic movie? I want to go watch it now.
Years ago my gaming group had thougt about doing St Nazair as a demo at shows , though we had been looking at a coastal naval game in 1/600th using alot of the kytrex range . Trouble was I tend to be the one who has to make and paint everything and had tom
many projects at time to start it. I shall watch this project with great interest.Sorry about break in post using Xbox controller to type .
Avalon Hill I think it was did a good board game based on the raid
Avalon Hill is always my first stop, @torros . Not only is their historical research very very good, but they’ve already “translated” the history into a game system you can use for ideas, inspiration, or just the whole game. 😀
Loving the idea of the St. Nazaire raid
As companies continue to raise the bar, “doesn’t look like an MDF building” is becoming as redundant as “great detail for 15mm”. Nevertheless, I continue to be stunned by 4Ground’s bar-raising.
Happy Sunday!
Great looking temple there from 4Ground. I particularly like the internal etchings of the goddess and her aspects.
Loved the segment on St Nazaire, I’m in the midst of exploring WW2 myself at the moment both on the table and just in general researching so rather nice timing really :).
Hmm warlord seem to be taking some ideas from Very British Civil War with the Mosley… Oswald was imprisoned in early 1940 so will be interesting to see how they work him into a WW2 Sealion scenario.
That was one of the finest 2 hours of XLBS that I have ever sat through…. next time some whiney git complains about the miniscule price of being a backstager show them this. Some comments….. those 4ground guys, I love them. I want their game so badly …. just because they are so enthusiastic about it. I have to be away for a couple of weeks so I’m hesitant to order anything in at the moment , but when I get back I am ordering some Fabled realms buildings so i am ready to go …………..(I didn’t know this game… Read more »
Don’t worry I doubt @oriskany will let December come with out a fight up north
I’m not sure this episode is a convincing argument against such whiners. At least it wouldn’t be for me if I were one of them – I skipped the entire oriskany section and found the Warlord section rather dull, but that’s because I have zero interest in WW2 and the featured Warlord games. I’m sure if you are interested in those things it was a cracker of an episode, but that’s not the case for everyone. But that is not a cause for complaint as I’m sure there will be XLBS episodes that have those things marginalised and have a… Read more »
*will not find it interesting
Watch the segment on saint nazier – you will kick yourself as the story is cracking and would make an amazing sci-fi scenario.
Open your mind buddy because so much of what we talk about can be applied laterally across genres 🙂
Yeah I would agree with this.. In the past we have played a few scifi scenarios based on historical ones. Works really well
@warzan: fair points but I’m okay missing it. WW2 really doesn’t interest me (other than Dad’s Army and ‘allo ‘allo, but even then their draw has more to do with the comedy than the setting) and it just doesn’t engage me enough to dredge through it to pull out aspects that can be applied elsewhere. And I’m fine with that. My point wasn’t that this episode is a bad one (or that the St. nazier segment was worthless) but rather it’s not the sure fired counter argument to the whiners that bearddragon asserted it was and that to be convincing… Read more »
Yep I wasn’t responding to the worthwhile episode bit 🙂 I brought up saint nazier in passing I front of Andy Chambers who instantly recognised it and started talking about it. Look at the influences of all the writers of the great sci-fi and fantasy games and I gauarntee you the stuff you love most in those genres has stepped right out of the pages of a history book 😉 On this segment saint nazier – there is nothing for you to wade through or pull apart, just an amazing story of an impossible mission going ahead against all the… Read more »
@warzan: good points, and I agree that many fantasy and sci-fi stories have inspiration drawn from history, although for many people the interest is how that’s built upon and/or the lenses it’s filtered through that draws them in where the source doesn’t. For example, Star Wars draws heavily on WW2 films, and Lucas even spliced in footage from those films as a holding place while waiting for the special effects to be finished when he held a test screening (in fact there are even some scenes that are shot for shot remakes of that footage) and, for example, the trench… Read more »
@warzan: mulling it over, I’ll give the segment another go. I won’t promise that I’ll be able to get through it, but I will give it a try, and I’ll try and come up with an idea for a 40k scenario based on it for you. (Will have to wait until tomorrow though as it’s getting a bit late atm 😉 )
That’s the spirit and I’m really looking forward to your thoughts on porting to 40k especially with the shiner new plastic thunder hawk on the way 🙂 And just to be extra clear as it’s a little embarrassing I didn’t mean watch it because I’m in it!!!! Lol I meant I knew the content of the segment and it is highly unlikely to be like what you are imagining it to be 🙂 Remember I was in exactly the same boat a handful of years ago before flames of war for the win was being filmed. I then learned that… Read more »
I knew it was going to be Operation Chariot 😎 100% approval from me (as if it made a difference lol). This is sooo super awesome!! I’m totally on board if you need anything painted 🙂 I paint 15mm WW2 Infantry with one hand (left!) tied to my back and half asleep! I’d suggest battlefront’s BEF figures as their commandos are late war and they certainly would have worn helmets. They have lots of Germans that would fit the bill although I’ve got to check if they also do Kriegsmarine units.. The Warlord Bolt Action stuff looks great, the Paras… Read more »
I have 136 British infantry painted in 15mm for the Operation Sea Lion series, including Bren gun teams and other units (okay, mortar teams and PIAT teams might not be appropriate for Chariot). I could send them over if it would make things easier, if I get them back. 😀
hmmm Well you know what happened when you lent us a Destroyer
Good call, @huscarle . I can picture @dignity and @johnlyons blowing up my 15mm British behind the studio with firecrackers in the name of “completing a vital mission.” 😀 😀 😀
Plastic Algoryn Command Squad. Gimme!