40K Charted: The Chaos Gods Explored – Khorne
November 2, 2015 by warzan
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High fantasy, of which the paradigmatic example is Tolkien, is primarily interested in a conflict between good and evil. When GW were putting the Warhammer Fantasy world together (from which 40K subsequently derived), they were heavily influenced by Michael Moorcock’s presentation of law and chaos, primarily in the Elric novels, as opposed to Tolkien’s good and evil. “Chaos (disorder, entropy) expresses the principle of possibility unfettered by rules. In general, magic and sorcery draw on the powers of Chaos because they break the laws of nature. The effects of Chaos can be beautiful, but left unchecked, they become too disruptive… Read more »
Thanks @redben great reading!
I would urge anyone interested in the roots of the 40K setting to read some Elric novels and also the early Nemesis the Warlock books, especially The Gothic Empire. It won’t help you with the 40K lore, and the trajectory from the 90s onwards was away from this towards a more straightforward good and evil conflict, but it’ll show where the setting is coming from.
Yeah. Michael Moorcocks work was very huge and influential in the 80s. We don’t seem to hear as much of him these days though.
He was so influential on GW back in the 80s because of the people making the design decisions at the time, most notably Byran Ansell, for whom the likes of Moorcock, Clark Ashton Smith, and Lovecraft were influences (far more so than Tolkien despite people’s assumptions that Warhammer Fantasy is a Tolkien derivative). When you get a high turnover of people working on an IP over several decades it’s inevitable that new people will come in who don’t share those influences and who bring their own influences to bear. Eventually you reach a point where the influences are the IP… Read more »
thanks @redben
information and fiction I have been aware of, but not yet come across. I shall seek them out!
As a Chaos Space Marine player this has been an eye opener for me, cant wait to check out the other 3 parts to this mini series.
Same for me, and the next episodes are even better! 🙂 (I get to say that as it’s AJ who’s doing Al the work, while I get to sit back and ask ridiculous questions lol)
What redben said. Also, it’s worth reading Dune as well, and perhaps the sequels. Essentially, it lays the plan for a feudal universe where a powerful psychic becomes God Emperor. It also includes Navigators who have become extremely mutated, and can fold space. The early GW fluff has much more nuance in my opinion. The Space Marines, and the Imperium itself, is almost a paranoid fascist superpower intent on maintaining absolute purity even if it costs the extermination of millions of its own people. And the Emperor was a psychic vampire who required psykers to be sacrificed to him regularly.… Read more »
Those Ian Watson books were excellent. Definitely from an era when the writers had far more freedom to play around with the 40K universe. The Inquisitor trilogy explored whole areas of the lore that no-one else has touched on and (as far as I know) are the only books to… ***SPOILER*** …directly involve the Emperor. And they were great examples of the more nuanced fluff that you’re talking about. I think one of the reasons that’s disappeared from the current generation of fluff is the dominance of ‘Space marine Battles’ novels coming out of the Black Library. Far too many… Read more »
Agreed. I think too many of the novels are modeled on those WW2 action novellas, like Sven Hassel, etc… the Ian Watson novels were disturbing, intelligent and delightful. It wasn’t just boom, bang, crunch for 200 pages.
+10 on dune, although best to ignore the “pinky and the brain” prequels, and to be honest the second trilogy from FH did go off on a bit of a tangent what with the whole turning into sandoworm thing, although that narrative clearly influenced the emperors supposed actions from the golden throne (assuming its not a tzeench trick….)
Hey nice work, AJ is doing great and works really well on camera, good stuff!
As someone who hasn’t played 40k since 2nd or 3rd edition (it was a long time ago and the memory is a little hazy), I’m surprised, this is becoming one of my favourite shows you chaps produce. The pair of you, delving into the depths of 40k lore is proving to be surprisingly compelling. The emphasis upon the background to the game is really what has got me hooked, but the translation of the fluff to the tabletop works very well too. My congratulations sirs, well done. I’ll be looking forward to the rest of this series. Especially the episode… Read more »
It is fascinating, and AJ has my perfect 40k brain (for me the background – and how we bring that to the tabletop – was always my passion)
So it’s actually a lot of fun to make this little series and I’m pretty gripped by it lol
Most of my mates think Khorne is a bit dull but I think it gives you a very single minded and focused army to think on. I love the whole ‘screw psychics’ side of their army too where you just rush forward in a mad howling horde trying to get into combat with the enemy by any means necessary.
I too really like the idea of a Berserker army but then with icons to bring Bloodletters into the fighting too once the crimson begins to flow.
BoW Ben
You most definitely want to take a look at the Khorne Daemonkin codex there Ben. Its not an overpowered army but allows you to have an army of mortals and daemons together and to summon more daemons and gain boons through a mechanic called the Blood Tithe.
I always fancied a Demon army with loads of lesser demons, hounds etc.
Still remember that one picture at the back of a WD showing a handful of Grey Knights like a tiny island of sanity in a sea of Bloodletters.. 😎
Love the show. Can’t wait to see the Imperial Guard and Tau episodes..!
You know I was never that interested in 40K but these videos are making it more interesting. Keep it up.
“Milk for the Khorne flakes!! Spoons for the skull bowl!!” Sorry, had to do it haha. Running the risk of sounding like a broken record, I’ve got to admit this has really started to rekindle my interest in 40k again. As a teenager I’d trawl through the books for hours soaking everything up but as I got older, I drifted into other things. Be nice to make a return to Chaos again – especially the daemonic side of things. As odd as it sounds, I always preferred legions like the Iron Warriors or the Word Bearers, they still had some… Read more »
We are both impressed by AJ and his brilliant approach. One of the best things currently on the site.
I know it seems distant but taking up Redben’s initial comments, I am about to paint a large direct copy of Elric upon one cover from the said stories. This was issued by Forge world. I will add some pictures when I start.
Victoria and Chris G
LOL, you are no Space Marines, you are friggin Primarchs ! Still have ultimately to decide which primarchic attributes fit best to them 3 brothers but with Warren being a spiritual hippie beast I think Magnus the Red might be a good fit and knowledgeable as AJ is, I see a bit of Lorgar in him.
Lol!
Great show!
Check out that Emperor Illuminati stuff in Slaves to Darkness (?)
I think Malal was a Skaven-like Deamon in the original lore (?)
Did Epic 40k do the Demon Primarchs?
‘Slaves to Darkness’ is the only 40K book from the early years of the Black Library (re-launch?) that I never got my hands on. I really must track down a copy. ‘Eye of Terror’ was another one that took a unique slant on all things Chaotic. And Epic 40K’s predecessor Epic Space Marine did have minis for the Demon Primarchs. I actually still have one in it’s original blister pack (circa ’91 I think). It looks pretty much like the Grim Reaper; long flowing cloak with a deep hood and a huge scythe. I think scale-wise he’s the size of… Read more »
I remember that Mortarian Dark-Reaper figure and I think Magnus was a blue ogre-like thing?
Oh! Interesting. I shall have to look into that. Would be interesting to see some daemon Primarch miniatures. Epic would be the perfect place for them too!
yes Epic did all for of the main primarchs , the one he may have is the one from the death guard. there is a one eyed one, a blood thruster like one and one that looks like slanesh.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p153-01.htm
Yes they did do the Demon Primarchs
Malal is described in the second edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay as a renegade chaos god hunting the servants of the other chaos gods.
Another great show guys. For me, the lore behind 40K has always been what’s set it head-and-shoulders above the other games out there. Even when I had moved away from the actual gaming and hobby side, I’d continued to read the novels and they were what eventually brought me back to the fold. The Chaos Gods are a great place to start. Aside from their huge presence in the lore, they’re also a really great example of how the background can directly impact the actual games we play, and really influence our armies. The daemonic side of Chaos is really… Read more »
I am not a chaos player or even a 40K player, but it was a really interesting show.
Very cool show, it’s nice to hear about the tales of chaos I read ages ago and more recently with the Horus Heresy books. It might be interesting to add that with Angron, his reason for being so angry is that on his homeworld Bodt (I forgot the name, I knew it sounded like ‘bolt’, had to look it up lol) had essentially been a gladiator, who revolted like Spartacus, and tried to free his people. And in one last stand where he was ready to go down fighting with his people that he loved, he was ripped from the… Read more »
From what I have read Malal was the 5th Chaos god but GW got stung when someone produced a comic for them involving Malal. The deal fell apart and GW ended up losing the IP rights to Malal. That’s why he’s not in the background any more and also why GW are so strict on not giving other companies access to their IP.
John Wagner and Alan Grant, who at the time were the writers on Judge Dredd (amongst other things), created Malal for their Kaleb Daark comic strip they did for GW. They owned the rights to Kaleb and Malal as they created them and weren’t employees of GW. The strip pre-dates the Realm of Chaos books and the establishment of the four Chaos gods. Tony Ackland, who concepted the daemons for the Realms of Chaos books, also did some for Malal which obviously never wound up being used. One of them was recently released by C-P Models as the Hook Horror.… Read more »
Here is Kaleb summoning Malal –
http://dreadaxe.pagesperso-orange.fr/Scans_BD_GW/The%20Quest%20of%20Kaleb%20Daark%2013.jpg
Thanks for giving more details. I heard about it years ago but couldn’t remember all the facts.
Its great to see so many interesting comments around this topic. I found it fascinating to research, and as you guys have proved in the comments, there is still so much more to know! I’d forgotten that Angron was a gladiator, but I didnt realise that he had been a sparticus figure, or that the Emperor had denied him of the chance to fight with the last of his people. Also I like the idea that Malal was like the horned one… Makes a lot of sense to me. @Irredeemable- I have been meaning to read the Night Lords Trilogy… Read more »
Definitely do, you won’t regret it. The Black Library releases so many books that I tend to read them and then shelve them, never to be looked at again. But the Night Lords omnibus is one of the few that I’ve actually gone back and read for a second time. Simply as a story it’s excellently written and entertaining from start to finish. But in terms of fluff/lore it gives one of the best accounts of a Chaos legion that aren’t devout worshipers of the Chaos pantheon, and what their reasons are for doing what they do. The omnibus also… Read more »
great show to watch, found a bit more about 40k always nice, nurgle is my chosen so cant wait for next episode, I know only little about slanech so that will be interesting too
Yes, the Chaos Gods live inside your head. 😀
It has occurred to me that each God caters to a different class of people.
Khorne is for warriors.
Tzeentch is for scholars.
Slaanesh is for the nobility.
And Nurgle is for peasants and the working class.
Totally love this show, don’t play 40K or any GW games anymore but I’m digging this show a lot.
Bring me my Changer of Ways!
Great show, as someone who’s been in and out of 40k for years the heresy was always there but i never knew much about it. Yes the warmaster did a runner with the traitor space marines but beyond that i knew nothing.
With this show its got me interested again as it is filling in the blanks, maybe i’ll read the heresy novels that have been sitting on the shelf for a while.
Fantastic episode! I was never really into the chaos weirdos all that much but this goes to show just a little back story makes for a more interesting game! And the show is something to look forward to after work on a yucky Monday…Cheers!
I am lucky to own a copy of both Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned. These books were multi-system (Fantasy, 40k) and a real excursion into the realms of the 4 main chaos gods. Still today, I like to have a look at the brilliant illustrations and tortured representations of the souls who attempted to please their chaotic patrons…
That being said, it was “kind of” a good show! 😉
Great show. But a bit of a question. Do the chaos gods align each to one of the horsemen of the apocalypse. Khorne seems very war. And Nurgle very pestilence. Don’t know enough about the others though.
Not really, as far as I can tell 🙂
I never really “got” Chaos – I might be a bit of an anomaly, but I can’t really game for a faction I can’t get my head around – which has always been a bit of a blocker for Tyranids and Chaos for me.
But the series is going to be interesting – especially if it tops it off by looking into the Emperor.
Great show again, really liking this series, glad to see the old fluff is being used here, hate the way the chaotic pantheon has been dumbed down in the last 15 years or so. Nurgle is still my favorite in so much as he is just raw nature/entropy and as a fan of physics he is the event horizon of a blackhole in table top form. Wish i could remember the title of the tale but in an old white dwarf (somewhere between #175 and #225) there was a story where its heavily implied that the emperor has died and… Read more »
Never heard that bit about the Tau but it is very interesting. Thanks for pointing it out @nakchak !
@happyhowler its far from cannon but certainly plausible, but anything is better than the real truth, that 40k fluff is dictated by bean counters now with the inquisition ruthlessly stamping out any hint of the heresy that is creativity, originality, or subtlety. What i miss most is the humor that used to run as a subtle vein of satire throughout GW’s fluff, i mean just look at the primarch names, or planet names that have stood the test of time, i mean triplex phall come on, its named after a curry!