@coolpall33 Sorry I assumed you knew only troops can take a dedicated transport. They don’t have to go in it but you can’t select it on its own.

Really that was one of my big worries, but I am thinking more for my grey knights.

You argue that D transports are not seperate units. Turn to page 109. Under D transports it says: Therefore a rhino brought for a space marine tactical squad *counts as a unit of troops*, ….. (goes on to talk about sternguard transports being elites) From the above D transports are considered seperate units for all purposes, except for determining your reserves (general vs specific in this case). As a seperate unit they do not have to be deployed with, by, etc. It is therefore fine for them to have split deployment (one in reserve, one not). Just to say again… Read more »

Yes it’s not unusual, everyone can buy transports for there troops
and they don’t have to deploy in them.
but when you come on from reserve your transports can’t come on to the table on their own.
As you know Troops + transport count as one unit
A transport on it’s own does not count as a unit
Therefore your scenario of 4 empty transports deploying on turn one would represent 0% of your army.

If you consider the transports on the board not as units then the same applies for the units in reserve (they don’t have their dedicated transports with them) same Scenairo.

You have 1 complete unit (hq) 1/2 = 0.5 0.5 rounded up equals 1.

You don’t have to deploy in your transports so deploying only the transports at the beginning is fine.

You are also completely wrong when you say that only troops can take dedicated transports. Looking at my GK codex I can see that purifiers (elites) can take rhino/razorback. Purgation squads (heavy) can take the same.

Sometimes even individual models can do it such as the necron overlord (hq) taking a command barge.

This simple (but very important mistake) leads me to believe you should study the rules more before entering into such a debate.

Back to the drawing board mate
You can’t deploy half units
so that makes your deployment non legit
Anyway this thread is about deep striking so back on topic

Secondly I play many game systems and generally refer to all figures as troops
so sorry for confusing you.

The only rule that limits the deployment of your transports is the one that states ‘it can only carry the unit it was selected with’ does not mean it has to be. I know for a fact that you can buy razorbacks for 10 man tactical squads (check FAQ). The reserves rule states that ‘a unit and its dedicated transport counts as a single unit for these purposes’, and as the two are not deployed together they neither count as a unit in reserve (transport on the table) or a unit on the table (only the transport is on the… Read more »

Yes 10 men can take a razorback no problem it’s not the issue. Who said it was?

A unit with a dedicated transport cannot deploy on the table or from deep strike or any form of reserve seperately.
You don’t have to be in the transport
They are either on the table or off the table together you deploy your empty Rhino on the table without the unit on the table as well
The Rhino does not count as half a unit.
There are no Half units in this game.

Where in the rulebook does it say they have to deploy together.

I am not saying that the transports count as half a unit, I am saying that the units in reserve don’t count as units without their transports, ergo I have only 1 reserve worthy unit.

So a unit takes a Drop pod as its dedicated transport but the drop pod cannot deploy using deepstrike without its unit. Then how come in the Marine FAQ it says you may do exactly that (send in a drop pod with nobody in it).

The transport and the unit that bought it are deployed together, they don’t have to be in it, or beside it, but they are deployed at the same time, if you put one on the table, you can’t leave the other in reserve.

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive to arrive later. Units that must stay in reserve are ignored for the pruposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independant characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another or not. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his… Read more »

@coolpall33 Yes a drop pod is a dedicated transport and one of your units has to select it When you make a successful roll to see if that unit can come in from reserve. You do have the option of sending your drop pod down empty just like your Rhino and Razorback but the rest of the unit has to deply as well at the same turn. It does not have to be in the Drop pod/Rhino If you choose not to put the unit in the Drop pod or Rhino or Razorback The unit walks on from the table… Read more »

Start by quoting a least 1 rule, because what you have said makes no sense and you have proved anything.

If you don’t have the rulebook you shouldn’t be argueing in the first place.

The other rule you quoted was the dedicated transport one, here it is. Sometimes a unit entry in a codex will include a tansport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These dedicated transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart (see page 109). Other vehicles may have a transport capacity, but they are chosen seperately as normal and occupy a force organisation cchart slot of their own. The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (including… Read more »

@coolpall33 There really is no need for that last comment There all sorts of people on here from old boys like myself with decades of experience down to newbies and all have something to offer. Judging by your posts not just on this thread but on others I will hazard a guess you are one of the latter, as your knowledge of the rules is very limited. Up to now I have been quite patient and curtious with you, it really is a shame you cannot be the same with me. I would suggest you join a games club or… Read more »

Quite clearly you have can’t counter my logic (a sign of someone who is wrong and less experienced than they think). Your last comment contains no useful information. Quite clearly you shouldn’t be arguing with anyone. I myself am a veteran player of countless games, having played for many years. (Don’t call me a noobie). What’s more when a new rulebook comes out that experience matters for absolutely nothing. I myself have been to the limit of politeness trying to get through that thick skull of yours, when you seem unable to keep a coherent arguement together, you can’t even… Read more »

@coolpall33 It says that in the quote you helpfully posted “A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.” you buy ’em as a unit, you deploy ’em as a unit, you roll to bring them out of reserve as a unit.

Firstly it is never stated that D transports and their unit count as a single unit (other than for reserve and force organisation slots). I have checked every page in the book for this. Again no rules have been quoted in your comment (I can see a pattern emerging here). You can’t read a quote as it says ‘only for these purposes’ (in this case determining how many units you have for reserves). This is not for deployment or any other purposes. Now who is being selective with the rules. They are many circumstances where units brought together don’t have… Read more »

I have to agree with @coolpall33 on this one, I didn’t think you could do this at first but his logic is faultless.

@coolpall33 there is no need to be abusive
@kingofcheesy very convincing mate you have been a member for 7 minutes (just checked) and you have read this entire thread and come to that conclusion.
Now I know for sure I’m dealing with a pair of kids I’ll end here.

Really that was one of my big worries, but I am thinking more for my grey knights. Lol put this in the wrong section silly me.

But you play mechanised, what does it matter do you???

I dont like the new vehicle rules (no longer can you stay in transports and hop out next turn and assault) they are too weak.

This is more for friendly games, and also being a pedant I’m just trying to prove to these people (if you can call them that) that it is possible.

@coolpall33 If you have 5 units (1 HQ & 4 Troops) you can put up to 3 of them in reserve. If you buy dedicated transports for 3 of your Troops units, you have 8 units when on the table. However, you still only have 5 units when considering your reserves (dedicated transport + passengers = 1 unit while in reserve). Therefore you can still only put 3 units in reserve, two of which will have to be units of troops with dedicated transports if you choose to put all 3 in reserve. @huscarle A dedicated transport does count as… Read more »

@kingofcheesy … I’m afraid your idea of faultless logic and mine, differ considerably.

Firstly thanks for setting your arguement out clean and simple. Makes it much easier to have a conversation. Where it says that ‘A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.’ this is refering to reserves not deployment. That is why the title says reserves. In neither the D transport sections, nor the deployment section of the rulebook does it say that units must be deployed in, on, beside, near, or indeed at the same time as their D transports. As I have said, it is stated that D transports and their unit count… Read more »

@coolpall33 said: Where it says that ‘A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.’ this is refering to reserves not deployment. That is why the title says reserves. In neither the D transport sections, nor the deployment section of the rulebook does it say that units must be deployed in, on, beside, near, or indeed at the same time as their D transports. Bolding Mine – This is the same lack of evidence argument I was talking about. This argument is logically fallacious… you must provide evidence to support this claim, as page… Read more »

You argue that D transports are not seperate units. Turn to page 109. Under D transports it says: Therefore a rhino brought for a space marine tactical squad *counts as a unit of troops*, ….. (goes on to talk about sternguard transports being elites) From the above D transports are considered seperate units for all purposes, except for determining your reserves (general vs specific in this case). As a seperate unit they do not have to be deployed with, by, etc. It is therefore fine for them to have split deployment (one in reserve, one not). Just to say again… Read more »

Therefore a dedicated transport and its passengers are counted as a single unit while in reserve. Therefore you cannot deploy half a unit from reserve (as you agreed), therefore you cannot deploy only the passengers without their dedicated transport.

Bit of a side note, but if a unit didn’t have to stay in coherency with others members of its squad, then there is nothing preventing you (as far as I know) from deploying 3 (out of 10) of your tactial marines in reserve (this would of course cause pretty much every rule in the book to break.)

Here is my arguement so far (the shorthand version with mimimal quotes). I have split it into a series of aims, quotes and conclusions. If you find something that is wrong, please point out the exact bit (whether that be the quote or my conclusion). I don’t no how to do highlights on this forum, so the asterisks are what I have used instead. Aim: Establishing if Dedicated Transports are seperate units? P107 – Dedicated Transports Therefore a rhino brought for a space marine tactical squad ***counts as a unit of troops***, but one brought for a unit of space… Read more »

@coolpall33 OK… now I see your problem… with or without your attempt to poison the well (a logical fallacy) by reintroducing your conflated meaning for deployment. When a unit and it’s Transport are held in reserve, they are 1 unit… we have established this. You then roll for your reserves (and we assume you get the 3+ required). The unit you rolled for must now be deployed… that means Unit + Dedicated Transport The transport and unit can be placed on the table separately (meaning in different places on the table) if you wish… but both must be deployed as… Read more »

I can see your point, but there are 2 key things you missed. Firstly look at the sentences before and after. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for these purposes. “” Independent characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined a unit or not. These are most clearly talking about how determining reserve numbers (not actually putting models into reserve that is about 5 lines down). E.g I have 2 drop pods (with units inside), 1 IC and 1 plain set of troops, as a subsect of my army all… Read more »

If you consider the IC example it is exactly the opposite (but follows similar if not the same principles).

If a IC joins a squad while in reserve, they still count as 2 units towards your reserves total, however in all other respects (as long as the IC remains with them).they are a single unit.

When they come in from reserves they roll together and come in together. If they want to stay a single squad, they must move, shoot and assault together.

@coolpall33 said: I can see your point, but there are 2 key things you missed. Firstly look at the sentences before and after. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for these purposes. @coolpall33 said: If you consider the IC example it is exactly the opposite (but follows similar if not the same principles). These two arguments are examples of the Red Herring Fallacy. Units that must start in reserve and Independent Characters are not the subject of this discussion. You have not addressed my argument. The Units & Dedicated Transport make 1 reserves roll which they… Read more »

Your arguement is that the ‘a single unit’ applies for the entirity of the reserves rule. Mine is that it is only ‘for determining reserve numbers’. I am assuming that you agree with me that D transports and their unit are seperate unit, except for where it states they are not. I am also assuming you agree that if a magical rule was invented and somehow d transports and their unit were seperated (one in reserve, one not) then this would not count to your reserves total. Right now that is cleared up, onto the crux of the arguement as… Read more »

@coolpall33 No… your argument boils down to “the rulebook doesn’t say I can’t”.

This is not a supportive or evidenced argument. If you continue to post fallacious arguments tarted up in red herring pyjamas, then there is little point in discussing this with you logically as you are not using logic.

Thats not at all what I am saying. Infact what I am trying to say is that your explanation has a fundermental impossibilty in it. Therefore the only other explantion is to resort to following the normal rules. The general rule is that a dedicated transport is a seperate unit. You have to prove it is not whenever the we are dealing with reserves. If you can’t do it then a dedicated transport IS a seperate unit (except when determining reserve numbers), that is a plain as day. When you say: This is not a supportive or evidenced argument. I… Read more »

I would also like to say that for the most part the rulebook relies on an exception based system and a pinch of common sense. You have to find the exception to the D transports are seperate unit rule that fits your arguement. Many times people have posed similar examples to your ‘it don’t say I can so I can’t way of seeing things’ A marine is equipped with a bolter. The rules don’t say I can fire it though. A terminator has a 5+ invun. The rules don’t say I can use it though. The lists of these stupid… Read more »

@coolpall33: Your argument about the “treat as one unit” applying only to the count for units in reserve does not make sense. If true, that would then mean one would have to roll separately for a unit and it’s dedicated transport if they were in reserve together. That would mean a transport could arrive before its passengers or vice versa!?

@kjq13 Not sure what you are trying to say here. If you want your unit and transport to come in seperate from each other then they do have to roll seperately (2 different units). If you are saying that they have to roll seperatly if you want them embarked on a transport, that is incorrect as I will explain. Deploying Transport Vehicles Units can deploy in transport vehicles *if you wish* Therefore if you roll for your dop pod and you have previously declared it is tranporting some marines (the only ones you can because it is dedicated), the marines… Read more »