July 19, 2012 by darrell
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Darrell gives some advice on how he thinks you should use your units with Deep Strike... but more importantly... what can happen when things go wrong!
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I deepstrike all my nids, its the only way to stop them getting shot to bits and is really off putting for the opponent having nothing to shoot at or knowing where to move in the first turn
Not including units that have to arrive from reserve up to half you armies units has to be on the table from turn one.
Check out reserves in the new book.
It’s a shame as I liked to do the same thing with my Eldar against that Necron lord who turns out the lights. Let him go first then hope by turn 3 he would have lost the ability.
In edition to what @huscarle
You cant do this now as there is now a rule saying you must have models on the board at the end of every game turn or you automatically lose. (it is under the victory conditions section of the book).
Only possible way to get around this is deploy some really cheap units or empty transports. So 4 transports if in total you are taking 9 units (taking 4.5 rounded up units into reserve). But they have to survive for 1 turn as well/
@coolpall33 I don’t think that would work either. The unit and it’s transport are counted as a single unit for reserves. The only way round it is to have an army like the Deathwing.
I never said transported units, if you look I said empty transports. Talking about spending like 140 points just on 4 plain Rhinos.
@coolpall33 Sorry I assumed you knew only troops can take a dedicated transport. They don’t have to go in it but you can’t select it on its own.
Really that was one of my big worries, but I am thinking more for my grey knights.
You argue that D transports are not seperate units. Turn to page 109. Under D transports it says:
Therefore a rhino brought for a space marine tactical squad *counts as a unit of troops*, ….. (goes on to talk about sternguard transports being elites)
From the above D transports are considered seperate units for all purposes, except for determining your reserves (general vs specific in this case). As a seperate unit they do not have to be deployed with, by, etc. It is therefore fine for them to have split deployment (one in reserve, one not).
Just to say again if not deployed together then neither count as a full unit for determining the number of units you have in reserves.
Also how do you bold your hightlights haven’t worked that out yet??
Oh I havent really been clear here, I play GK. What I take tends to be 1 Hq and 4 troops. So I can buy the transports for my troops (even though they wont deploy in them). Them I have 4 half units on the table = 2 units. Plus I then 4 half units plus my HQ in reserve = 3 units. (3 + 2) divided by 2 = 2.5 rounded up to 3.
It is a bit confusing but I think it is legit, as unit plus dedicated is one unit
Yes it’s not unusual, everyone can buy transports for there troops
and they don’t have to deploy in them.
but when you come on from reserve your transports can’t come on to the table on their own.
As you know Troops + transport count as one unit
A transport on it’s own does not count as a unit
Therefore your scenario of 4 empty transports deploying on turn one would represent 0% of your army.
If you consider the transports on the board not as units then the same applies for the units in reserve (they don’t have their dedicated transports with them) same Scenairo.
You have 1 complete unit (hq) 1/2 = 0.5 0.5 rounded up equals 1.
You don’t have to deploy in your transports so deploying only the transports at the beginning is fine.
You are also completely wrong when you say that only troops can take dedicated transports. Looking at my GK codex I can see that purifiers (elites) can take rhino/razorback. Purgation squads (heavy) can take the same.
Sometimes even individual models can do it such as the necron overlord (hq) taking a command barge.
This simple (but very important mistake) leads me to believe you should study the rules more before entering into such a debate.
Back to the drawing board mate
You can’t deploy half units
so that makes your deployment non legit
Anyway this thread is about deep striking so back on topic
Secondly I play many game systems and generally refer to all figures as troops
so sorry for confusing you.
The only rule that limits the deployment of your transports is the one that states ‘it can only carry the unit it was selected with’ does not mean it has to be. I know for a fact that you can buy razorbacks for 10 man tactical squads (check FAQ).
The reserves rule states that ‘a unit and its dedicated transport counts as a single unit for these purposes’, and as the two are not deployed together they neither count as a unit in reserve (transport on the table) or a unit on the table (only the transport is on the table).
By that logic, for reserve purposes I only have 1 unit (my HQ) and half of 1 round up is 1, so it is fine for him to stay in reserve.
I do not lose the game automatically, because after deployment ‘dedicated transports are counted as seperate units in all respects’.
Yes 10 men can take a razorback no problem it’s not the issue. Who said it was?
A unit with a dedicated transport cannot deploy on the table or from deep strike or any form of reserve seperately.
You don’t have to be in the transport
They are either on the table or off the table together you deploy your empty Rhino on the table without the unit on the table as well
The Rhino does not count as half a unit.
There are no Half units in this game.
Where in the rulebook does it say they have to deploy together.
I am not saying that the transports count as half a unit, I am saying that the units in reserve don’t count as units without their transports, ergo I have only 1 reserve worthy unit.
So a unit takes a Drop pod as its dedicated transport but the drop pod cannot deploy using deepstrike without its unit. Then how come in the Marine FAQ it says you may do exactly that (send in a drop pod with nobody in it).
The transport and the unit that bought it are deployed together, they don’t have to be in it, or beside it, but they are deployed at the same time, if you put one on the table, you can’t leave the other in reserve.
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive to arrive later. Units that must stay in reserve are ignored for the pruposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independant characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another or not. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to this opponent.
@cazboab where in that rule does it say ‘The transport and the unit that bought it are deployed together, they don’t have to be in it, or beside it, but they are deployed at the same time, if you put one on the table, you can’t leave the other in reserve.’
That is just plain wrong. I know for a fact you can deploy units and transports seperately, because it is dicussed for a drop pod in the new space marine FAQ.
@coolpall33
Yes a drop pod is a dedicated transport and one of your units has to select it
When you make a successful roll to see if that unit can come in from reserve.
You do have the option of sending your drop pod down empty just like your Rhino and Razorback but the rest of the unit has to deply as well at the same turn.
It does not have to be in the Drop pod/Rhino
If you choose not to put the unit in the Drop pod or Rhino or Razorback The unit walks on from the table edge………………………It has to be deployed at the same time.
So as I said previously you cannot deploy your 4 empty rhinos + 1 other option to make half your force deployment even GK are not that lucky.
You ask how I know this
It’s in the rule book under dedicated transports and under reserves
Start by quoting a least 1 rule, because what you have said makes no sense and you have proved anything.
If you don’t have the rulebook you shouldn’t be argueing in the first place.
The other rule you quoted was the dedicated transport one, here it is.
Sometimes a unit entry in a codex will include a tansport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These dedicated transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart (see page 109). Other vehicles may have a transport capacity, but they are chosen seperately as normal and occupy a force organisation cchart slot of their own.
The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (including any Indenpendant Caracters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly unit, subject to tansport capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.
HOW DO YOU DRAW YOUR CONCLUSION FROM THAT??
@coolpall33
There really is no need for that last comment
There all sorts of people on here from old boys like myself with decades of experience down to newbies and all have something to offer.
Judging by your posts not just on this thread but on others I will hazard a guess you are one of the latter, as your knowledge of the rules is very limited.
Up to now I have been quite patient and curtious with you, it really is a shame you cannot be the same with me.
I would suggest you join a games club or enrol in a beginners course at Games Workshop you will find it a great help.
You could also try to read your rule book not just selected parts.
Now I’ll leave you one last bit of advice it’s something I used to tell some of the lads in training
Don’t lead with your face
Quite clearly you have can’t counter my logic (a sign of someone who is wrong and less experienced than they think).
Your last comment contains no useful information. Quite clearly you shouldn’t be arguing with anyone.
I myself am a veteran player of countless games, having played for many years. (Don’t call me a noobie). What’s more when a new rulebook comes out that experience matters for absolutely nothing.
I myself have been to the limit of politeness trying to get through that thick skull of yours, when you seem unable to keep a coherent arguement together, you can’t even refer to a particular rule (in the rulebook you seem to love so much).
If you think I am being SELECTIVE with the rules, feel free to quote a rule (again from the rulebook you love so much) that explains it to me. Otherwise surrender like any good person should.
@coolpall33 It says that in the quote you helpfully posted “A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.” you buy ’em as a unit, you deploy ’em as a unit, you roll to bring them out of reserve as a unit.
Firstly it is never stated that D transports and their unit count as a single unit (other than for reserve and force organisation slots). I have checked every page in the book for this.
Again no rules have been quoted in your comment (I can see a pattern emerging here).
You can’t read a quote as it says ‘only for these purposes’ (in this case determining how many units you have for reserves). This is not for deployment or any other purposes. Now who is being selective with the rules.
They are many circumstances where units brought together don’t have to stay together. Space wolves have wolf guard, necrons have royal courts and IG have platoons just as three easy examples.
I have to agree with @coolpall33 on this one, I didn’t think you could do this at first but his logic is faultless.
@coolpall33 there is no need to be abusive
@kingofcheesy very convincing mate you have been a member for 7 minutes (just checked) and you have read this entire thread and come to that conclusion.
Now I know for sure I’m dealing with a pair of kids I’ll end here.
Really that was one of my big worries, but I am thinking more for my grey knights. Lol put this in the wrong section silly me.
But you play mechanised, what does it matter do you???
I dont like the new vehicle rules (no longer can you stay in transports and hop out next turn and assault) they are too weak.
This is more for friendly games, and also being a pedant I’m just trying to prove to these people (if you can call them that) that it is possible.
@coolpall33 If you have 5 units (1 HQ & 4 Troops) you can put up to 3 of them in reserve.
If you buy dedicated transports for 3 of your Troops units, you have 8 units when on the table. However, you still only have 5 units when considering your reserves (dedicated transport + passengers = 1 unit while in reserve).
Therefore you can still only put 3 units in reserve, two of which will have to be units of troops with dedicated transports if you choose to put all 3 in reserve.
@huscarle A dedicated transport does count as its own unit… unless… it is put into reserve. Where it is counted as one unit along with its passengers (or attached unit if you will).
@kingofcheesy … I’m afraid your idea of faultless logic and mine, differ considerably.
Firstly thanks for setting your arguement out clean and simple. Makes it much easier to have a conversation.
Where it says that ‘A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.’ this is refering to reserves not deployment. That is why the title says reserves. In neither the D transport sections, nor the deployment section of the rulebook does it say that units must be deployed in, on, beside, near, or indeed at the same time as their D transports.
As I have said, it is stated that D transports and their unit count as a single unit for reserve (and slot) purposes (only), therefore if they are deployed seperately (one in reserve, one not), then neither count towards your reserves total, because technically there is neither a reserve worthy unit in reserve or on the table.
I have seen many players deploy their transports seperately from their units. Prime example is when we used to that mission (I think Dawn of War), plus many times in friendly games people have deployed drop pods seperate from their dedicated units. Here is a copy of one of the qs from the marine FAQ.
Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad inside? (P69)
A: Yes you can.
Here is my positive statements, now to you. By the way why cheesy said my logic was faultless was that I actually showed him in person (we go to the same local GW), it is much easier to explain face to face but oh well.
@coolpall33 said: Where it says that ‘A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.’ this is refering to reserves not deployment. That is why the title says reserves. In neither the D transport sections, nor the deployment section of the rulebook does it say that units must be deployed in, on, beside, near, or indeed at the same time as their D transports.
Bolding Mine – This is the same lack of evidence argument I was talking about. This argument is logically fallacious… you must provide evidence to support this claim, as page 78 of the 6th Edition rulebook disagrees with you.
@coolpall33 said: As I have said, it is stated that D transports and their unit count as a single unit for reserve (and slot) purposes (only), therefore if they are deployed seperately (one in reserve, one not), then neither count towards your reserves total, because technically there is neither a reserve worthy unit in reserve or on the table.
Bolding Mine – This is incorrect, a Unit and its Dedicated Transport count as a single unit when counting reserves… it says so very clearly.
@coolpall33 said:
Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad inside? (P69)
A: Yes you can.
When you deploy this empty drop pod… do the passengers it was bought for (as a dedicated transport) appear on the table?
I see that it must, as it is part of the same unit as the Drop Pod. Until… and not before… it has been placed on the tabletop (deployed).
Therefore, the Drop Pod (dedicated transport) and Unit (passengers) must either deploy at the same time (i.e. be placed on the table top) with the passengers either embarked, or deployed as a normal unit from reserve, or they must be held in reserve together (as a single unit).
You are conflating the terms Deployment & Deployed to mean “removed from reserve” when they in fact mean “placed on the table top”.
Therefore when you deploy the unit that contains the Drop Pod… you must place all of that unit on the table… be they in the Drop Pod or not.
This is true of all Dedicated Transports.
You argue that D transports are not seperate units. Turn to page 109. Under D transports it says:
Therefore a rhino brought for a space marine tactical squad *counts as a unit of troops*, ….. (goes on to talk about sternguard transports being elites)
From the above D transports are considered seperate units for all purposes, except for determining your reserves (general vs specific in this case). As a seperate unit they do not have to be deployed with, by, etc. It is therefore fine for them to have split deployment (one in reserve, one not).
Just to say again if not deployed together then neither count as a full unit for determining the number of units you have in reserves.
Also how do you bold your hightlights haven’t worked that out yet??
I accidently put a copy of this in the wrong place could you possibly delete that and then this line. Thanks.
Therefore a dedicated transport and its passengers are counted as a single unit while in reserve. Therefore you cannot deploy half a unit from reserve (as you agreed), therefore you cannot deploy only the passengers without their dedicated transport.
Bit of a side note, but if a unit didn’t have to stay in coherency with others members of its squad, then there is nothing preventing you (as far as I know) from deploying 3 (out of 10) of your tactial marines in reserve (this would of course cause pretty much every rule in the book to break.)
Here is my arguement so far (the shorthand version with mimimal quotes). I have split it into a series of aims, quotes and conclusions. If you find something that is wrong, please point out the exact bit (whether that be the quote or my conclusion). I don’t no how to do highlights on this forum, so the asterisks are what I have used instead.
Aim: Establishing if Dedicated Transports are seperate units?
P107 – Dedicated Transports
Therefore a rhino brought for a space marine tactical squad ***counts as a unit of troops***, but one brought for a unit of space marine sternguard veteran squad, ***count as elites***.
P121 – Deploying Multiple Unit Choices
Occasionally, a codex will allow a player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot. Apart from being brought together as a single choice, ***these such units operate and count as seperate units in all respects***.
Conclusion: Dedicated Transports are seperate units.
Aim: Can Dedicated Transports be deployed on their own, without their units?
P121 – Deploying Transport Vehicles
Units can be deployed in transport vehicles ***if you wish***.
P121 – Deploying Transport Vehicles
If the unit is a dedicated transport, only the unit it was selected with can deploy within it.
P78 – Dedicated Transports
The only restiction of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed, ***it can only*** carry the unit is was selected with.
Conclusion: Units can choose to deploy in transports (if you wish), and the deploying dedicated transports section offers no extra details that would stop that. Also seems no objections to them being deployed at different times. The words ‘it can only carry ‘ and ‘if you wish’ are used instead of ‘it must carry’ to show that units don’t have to be deployed together with/in their transports.
Aim: Are units considered a unit in reserve (for the purposes of working out the amount of units allowed in reserves) if they are not with their Dedicated Transports?
P124 – Preparing Reserves
A unit and its Dedicated Transports ***are considered as a single unit*** ***for these purposes***.
Conclusion: If for whatever reason the two are not deployed together (in either reserves or on the field), then they according to the deteming the amount of units that allowed into Reserve, then are neither individually are considered a unit for detemining the amount of units in reserve or indeed on the table.
Conclusion 2: For these purposes, reinforces the point that they are not one unit otherwise.
Aim: Although not as important, fluff wise does this make sense??
My opinion: Yes! I can think of a couple of situations (that would work for any army) that would make sense fluff wise.
A marine commader stopping an ork invansion knows he must do whatever it takes to stop them, even if it means having some of the emperor’s holy rhinos (with nobody in them) acting as decoys, so that his marines may sneak in another way.
Equally as soon as a Trukk driver is ready to attack he will go, even if it means leaving behind his boyz. As he would say ‘it is alwayz a rush to the fightz, I don’t have time for dem slowz boyz’.
I know this doesn’t add anything I am just showing that this rule isn’t stupid (not sadly what I can say for some of the rules) and kind of does make sense.
Aim: Am I Wrong?
I will let you try and say so, good luck.
@coolpall33 OK… now I see your problem… with or without your attempt to poison the well (a logical fallacy) by reintroducing your conflated meaning for deployment.
When a unit and it’s Transport are held in reserve, they are 1 unit… we have established this.
You then roll for your reserves (and we assume you get the 3+ required).
The unit you rolled for must now be deployed… that means Unit + Dedicated Transport
The transport and unit can be placed on the table separately (meaning in different places on the table) if you wish… but both must be deployed as both (successfully) rolled to be deployed from reserve.
You do not roll separately for the Transport and the Unit… therefore they must both be deployed to the table top at the same time.
1 Unit… 1 Roll for Reserves… (up to) 2 Depolyments
The evidence of this comes from abilities that manipulate the reserves roll. If (for example) a Grey Knight Grand Master uses Psychic Communication to reduce the roll by -1, thereby keeping the unit in reserve, both the Unit & its Transport stay in reserve… this is also true in reverse.
I can see your point, but there are 2 key things you missed.
Firstly look at the sentences before and after.
Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for these purposes.
“”
Independent characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined a unit or not.
These are most clearly talking about how determining reserve numbers (not actually putting models into reserve that is about 5 lines down).
E.g I have 2 drop pods (with units inside), 1 IC and 1 plain set of troops, as a subsect of my army all coming from reserve. The drop pods must arrive via deepstrike so do not count do my reserve total. As units with d transports count as a single unit, but the pods don’t count, I still have no units in reserve. Then no matter what I do with the IC (whether I put him in the squad or not) he remains a seperate entity for determining reserve numbers.
Therefore in total I have a total of 2 reserve worthy units in that subsect of my army, even though I actually have 6 units.
The second point is that it states ‘only for these purposes’, which means it is only when determining reserve numbers that you count them as a single unit.
If you consider the IC example it is exactly the opposite (but follows similar if not the same principles).
If a IC joins a squad while in reserve, they still count as 2 units towards your reserves total, however in all other respects (as long as the IC remains with them).they are a single unit.
When they come in from reserves they roll together and come in together. If they want to stay a single squad, they must move, shoot and assault together.
@coolpall33 said: I can see your point, but there are 2 key things you missed.
Firstly look at the sentences before and after.
Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for these purposes.
@coolpall33 said: If you consider the IC example it is exactly the opposite (but follows similar if not the same principles).
These two arguments are examples of the Red Herring Fallacy. Units that must start in reserve and Independent Characters are not the subject of this discussion.
You have not addressed my argument. The Units & Dedicated Transport make 1 reserves roll which they both must abide by. Once on the table, they are free to split, but not before.
This is the crux of your argument. You say they can split while in reserve. If this was the case they would make separate reserve rolls. They do not… therefore you are wrong.
Your arguement is that the ‘a single unit’ applies for the entirity of the reserves rule. Mine is that it is only ‘for determining reserve numbers’.
I am assuming that you agree with me that D transports and their unit are seperate unit, except for where it states they are not.
I am also assuming you agree that if a magical rule was invented and somehow d transports and their unit were seperated (one in reserve, one not) then this would not count to your reserves total.
Right now that is cleared up, onto the crux of the arguement as you said.
Firstly I would say that the line before and after are not Red Herrings in the slighest, they are providing the context for the situation.
Context is very important as if you just read the wounding rule for instance, you would know nothing about hitting and be effectively missing out 1/4 of the shooting rule. Knowing the wider context makes a big difference.
Now looking at your arguement as these sentences are talking about ‘Reserves in general’ that you have actually created an impossiblity. I will show you.
Lets use the ‘must be in reserves’ as an example.
‘Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored ***for these purposes***.’
Now if this were talking about reserves then we have almost created a paradox. These must be put into reserve, but if they are not counted as a unit for reserves then they cannot be rolled for and brought onto the battlefield (your explantion would say they are ignored for while in Reserves). Notice that this uses the same phase as the rule below it.
Now if we were to use my explantion ‘Determining reserve numbers’ it works absolutely fine.
When these units are put into reserve, then they do not count towards determining reserve numbers. After that they are treated as normal units (‘for these purposes’) and so as normal units do may come in by rolling each turn.
@coolpall33 No… your argument boils down to “the rulebook doesn’t say I can’t”.
This is not a supportive or evidenced argument. If you continue to post fallacious arguments tarted up in red herring pyjamas, then there is little point in discussing this with you logically as you are not using logic.
Thats not at all what I am saying.
Infact what I am trying to say is that your explanation has a fundermental impossibilty in it.
Therefore the only other explantion is to resort to following the normal rules.
The general rule is that a dedicated transport is a seperate unit. You have to prove it is not whenever the we are dealing with reserves.
If you can’t do it then a dedicated transport IS a seperate unit (except when determining reserve numbers), that is a plain as day.
When you say:
This is not a supportive or evidenced argument.
I have clearly provided a supported and evidenced arguement having provided at least (at last count) 8 page references (to your one, which was a selective copy of mine).
If you continue to post fallacious arguments tarted up in red herring pyjamas.
Looking at my oxford standard dictionary. If you think I have provided ‘a clue which is intentionally or unintentionally misleading or distracting from the actual issue.’ please point it out to me.
Lines before or after, or indeed entirely different pages have a very large effect on how a rule is understood. Personally I feel that ‘Context’ is a key aspect of the game, take the example I have provided below.
If I was to read the whole of the cover section of the book, except P.19 then I would not know that saves can be better than 2+ and that only one save can ever be taken per wound.
Also if you believe that your method is correct, then please feel to explain to me why ‘units that must stay in reserve’ are impossible under it.
Look at the ending of these two.
(Have to be in reserves): for the PURPOSES of working out how many other units may do so (seems like it indicates reserves numbers to me. How about you andy??)
Next sentence ending is: for THESE PURPOSES (to me that indicates the same purposes as the previous reference to purpose, which are determining reserve numbers. How about you andy??)
I would also like to say that for the most part the rulebook relies on an exception based system and a pinch of common sense.
You have to find the exception to the D transports are seperate unit rule that fits your arguement.
Many times people have posed similar examples to your ‘it don’t say I can so I can’t way of seeing things’
A marine is equipped with a bolter. The rules don’t say I can fire it though.
A terminator has a 5+ invun. The rules don’t say I can use it though.
The lists of these stupid comments goes on forever. Are you really saying that you agree with these??
@coolpall33: Your argument about the “treat as one unit” applying only to the count for units in reserve does not make sense. If true, that would then mean one would have to roll separately for a unit and it’s dedicated transport if they were in reserve together. That would mean a transport could arrive before its passengers or vice versa!?
@kjq13
Not sure what you are trying to say here. If you want your unit and transport to come in seperate from each other then they do have to roll seperately (2 different units).
If you are saying that they have to roll seperatly if you want them embarked on a transport, that is incorrect as I will explain.
Deploying Transport Vehicles
Units can deploy in transport vehicles *if you wish*
Therefore if you roll for your dop pod and you have previously declared it is tranporting some marines (the only ones you can because it is dedicated), the marines come in the drop pod.
This rule also allows for non-dedicated transports to bring in standard units when they come in from reserve.
Example: Landraider (not dedicated) declares it is going to transport a unit of marines, therefore when the landraider rolls high enough it comes in with a few marines inside.
My… my… this is quite the tantrum! I have moderated out some of the silly name-calling.
@coolpall33 as you seem to be a fan of logic, you’ll be all too aware of the problems involved with basing a conclusion (I can do this!) by proposing a negative premise (the rule book doesn’t say I can’t do this!)… you do don’t you?
Either way, it is not relevant, as you kindly quoted the rule in question:
@coolpall33 said: When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive to arrive later. Units that must stay in reserve are ignored for the pruposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independent characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another or not. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to this opponent.
Edit – Bolding is mine.
Therefore a dedicated transport and its passengers are counted as a single unit while in reserve. Therefore you cannot deploy half a unit from reserve (as you agreed), therefore you cannot deploy only the passengers without their dedicated transport.
The passengers can be deployed onto the table, from reserve, without being embarked on their dedicated transport, but the dedicated transport must be deployed at the same time as it is part of the same unit (as per bolding above).
After the transport is on the table, it can then carry other models, not only those it is dedicated too (as per pg.78 of the rulebook).
Now here’s how logical argument goes… I have provided positive evidence that dedicated transports cannot be split from their unit while in reserve and must be deployed as part of a complete unit, along with their passengers… you must now present positive evidence that this conclusion is wrong.
“The book doesn’t say I can’t” is an absence of evidence and does not support your claim.
The floor is yours…
@beerogre nice to see you before this turn into the Flamebeasts of War
Interesting.
I heard some people justifying the Necron flying circus by deploying the warriors on the table to meet the half army requirement and having the dedicated Night Scythes fly on later.
This obviously won’t work without them investing in more deployed units.
You cant do this now as there is now a rule saying you must have models on the board every game turn or you automatically lose.
Deeped striked 10 wolf guard terminators behinde a tau gun line suvived a hell of a lot of fire i mean a so much fire that i cant described assaulted and ummmm…….got killed by Tau 🙁
damn you dice gods!!!
Used Zagstrukk with a unit of 20 stormboyz, turn 2 deepsrtike and they get to assault on the turn they come in with Zagstrukk’s special rule. so with 6th edition rules that makes 21 Initiative 10 attacks, then zagstrukk’s Initiative 3 Powerklaw, then 20 Stormboyz (80 attacks on charge). I killed many many units with this combo since i included it into my army and encourage ork players to rethink the usefulness of Zagstrukk.
This Zagstrukk method is so effective because it’s for lack of a better word “cheating”.
The Ork FAQ clearly states you count as having used your Jump Packs in the movement phase when doing a Swoop Attack, which means you don’t get to use them in the Assault Phase, thus don’t get your Hammer of Wrath attacks, and don’t get to re-roll your charge range.
ok wow I completely missed that thanks for pointing it out. time to go apologise to my buddies at my LGS. still with the new 2d6 charge range it greatly increases their chances to get into combat the turn they come in (as long as you have d3 orks you can loose) and you still get the normal attacks to kill off opponents.
I like Warp spiders for deep striking. I havn’t used them a lot in the past but with 6th ed and hull pts they now look like they could cause some damage with their 22 S6 shots.
and they are also able to jump again in the assault phase, which can be handy especially if you come down in the wrong place.
@darrell I thought you didn’t like deep strike as it was too random or is that just in tournaments?
A game of 40k without Deep Strike is one I surely didn’t participate in…
No, seriously, I always deep strike my army: always! With every army I play!
If not 100%, then min. 33% of my army…
Something you didn’t mention however Darrell, is the 50% reserve rule… Aaargh, isn’t this bloody frustrating! Now I’ve got to stick all them guys in drop pods to be able to reserve them…
And btw… I’m not a king at rolling 6’s… But I am one at rolling the the scatter die! Alright, I mishap sometimes (especially at tournies it seems), but thats like 10% of the times.
I really don’t see why so few people deep strike, I mean:
1. A deep strike can get you further away than normal turns of movement
2. While you’re in reserve, you can’t get shot at
3. When you come in early, you have a very high alfa strike capability
4. When you come in late, which is what I want most of the time, you can stick 5 hammernators on objectives on turn 5 (now in 6th, turn 4 that is)… Ha, take that.
5… Ever heard about suicide units… Gak, I’ve sent more sternguard to their early deaths than I’ve deployed rhino’s!
6. Especially in the new edition, you’ve got tons & tons of options to get your guys when you want them (comm relay, divination psychic powers, my BA get Descent of Angels,…)
Also, when I get to tournies, a lot of people think I want my reserves to come in early (which I do want, but with only some of my units… But those get in on Turn 1 by drop pods, or get rerolls thanks to DoA) and therefor do everything to keep their Officer of the fleet, hive tyrant,… alive
And then bam, on T5 , they don’t know what happens
Memorable stuff…
1; VVets deep strike into difficult terrain… I lose 2 guys. Next turn, I want to move… Lose 2 guys. Sarge runs of the board.
2. My first rolls at the last national open tournament: my opponent has a line of AV14 wagons. My landspeeder with MM can’t get to the side, so I decide to deep strike him behind some terrain instead. Just because I might be able to do some damage, I fire the MM at the closest battlewagon (out of 12″): 6 to hit… 6 to glance… Another 6… = Wrecked.
3. I love my sternguard. They take on stormravens, land raiders & alike with ease… People don’t realise how valuable such units are in their army ’till they lose it on T1.
Sometimes though, they tend to roll 5 1’s when firing their combi-melta’s
4. Ever deep struck 10 Tacticals? Hihi, was at an apoc, I used the Legion of the Damned sheet to get 10 Tacticals, 1 Squad of Termies, a Dreadnought & a captian thatdeeps trike & have feel no pain (I know, not the fully legal composition, but everyone was ok with it)… That + some sternies made up my army. I took a flank and blasted tons of Tzeench sorcerers out of the sky: I was actually winning! Next turn I was gonna move & shoot all my melta’s in the back of that stompa… No, suddenly a heavy-mech imperial fist player, who was late, deployed his 4000 pts of tanks (land raiders & alike) right in front of me, and the ork player suddenly realised he had forgotten his 10 killa kans… FNP didn’t matter at that pt.
Ah… That’s a long post for saying: I love Deep Strike!
“dying, a slight downside”
10 warp spiders with exarch tried to deep strike. Scattered 11″ (1 too far) off the board and died.
This happened to me about a year ago but with a monolith.
A unit of 20 Termagants upgraded with devourers in a Mycetic Spore is a favourite of mine. 60 Str 4 AP 5 shots will do some serious damage to anything apart from AV 11+ and toughness 9-10.
I’ve got a couple of those as well. I’m also probably one of the only people stupid enough to put stranglewebs in them. I’m eager to pick ’em up again in 6th, 😉
The pods are super handy since they only mishap if they go off the board, and now with the 6″ disembark, they got even better.
Storm troopers and marbo(though he’s not technically deep striking it works almost the same way) are were most of my successes in deep strikes have come from, Hotshot lasguns are great at ripping apart eldar aspect warriors, and now theirs no hole must be over the hull stuff marbo’s demo charge could make a fair dent in any mechanised force.
This weekend at a tournament, Marbo popped in and killed the remaining 4 bikes in my upgraded ravenwing squad with a demo charge, ran over and punched my score landspeeder to death, then killed one of my GK allied termies with a ripper pistol.
That guy’s a jerk! 😉
Logan Grimnar, a Rune Priest w/ Storm Caller an either Jaws or Living Lightning and 5x Multi Melta Long Fangs Drop Pod in an melt face, but wait Mordrak, up to 5 Ghost Knights, an a juiced up Librarian can use First to the Fray to Deep Strike in right next to Logan an his Long Fangs, hello Storm Caller/Shrouding 4+ cover save, hello slowed down counter assault thanks to Sanctuary, and hello Interceptor squad shunting in with them all in the first turn. Kill everything in sight an then use Psychic communion in turn 2 to bring in another pod full of Grey Hunters :).
Helpful video, definately agree about being more aggressive although I still think units with melee only attacks are really limited as too deep strike options (Although they can always run to avoid death by blast marker). I do think it does make overlooked units more viable.
While I can understand reasons for the 50% rule it does rule out the marine all drop pod assault which while not a popular tactic is really characterful.
Don’t worry @dags the 50% does not apply to drop pods, as the rulebook states that ‘units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so’.
Drop pods always enter using the deep strike rules so must always be placed in reserve, which means they don’t count towards the half of your forces that have to be on the table, and since half of your drop pods arrive automatically in your first turn it also circumvents the no models you lose stipulation…
Same with Deathwing Assault. Is there anything else that works that way?
I play grey knight mordrak list so turn 1 i deep strike on top of main objective or enemy zone with mordrak+3 and a libby teleport homer and turn 2 i bring down the pain of a 5 paladin squad, 5 man terminator squad and dread knight. rampage by turn 3 happens as all my troops are shooting at any target of opportunity.
I’m definitely going to go with more drop pods than rhino/razorbacks now I think. I already play one or two Ironclads in Lucius pod(s) and they’re even better not with the increased disembark & charge distances, and being immune to the DT test when assaulting (due to new move through cover rule). I may also give my Vanguard Veterans another go in smaller games where I can’t afford the LR/Termies option due to the increased charge range (statistical 7″ average).