BBC Ask Why Grown Men are Playing with Toy Soldiers
March 13, 2012 by dracs
Samira Ahmed has written a really comprehensive article for the BBC on just what it is that makes grown men pick up the paint brush and engage in mighty imaginary space battles.
The article covers the length and breadth of our beloved hobby, from closet gamers to Games Workshop's high prices.
The appeal is in collecting, assembling and painting the models, for play, which are manufactured in Nottingham (and Memphis, Tennessee) and sold through the Games Workshops chain and by mail order. Blood, torn flesh, grimacing skulls and very large guns and tanks feature prominently in the detailed artwork.
Despite the competition from online or console-based gaming, Warhammer continues to thrive, with successful spin-off novels set in the 40K universe. How many other British companies, for example, could report a 40% rise in their latest half-year pre-tax profits?
"It's like why theatre remains popular in the age of cinema," says 32-year-old Andrew Ruddick from Cambridge, explaining its enduring appeal. He describes himself as a "relapsed" Warhammer gamer, slipping back into it in his 20s with friends. "There's an intimacy. With tabletop gaming you are there."
I'm sure this story of a relapsed gamer is familiar to all. I myself drifted out of gaming for a while until I stumbled into the BoW office while looking for somewhere warm to sit.
However, the article reveals that its not just the older generation who are still in love with this 25 year old game. New players are being introduced all the time, with the article including quotes from across the ages, including one thirteen year old girl who wears pink as a form of psychological warfare against all those male gamers. Beware the pink!
The article goes on to say how this influx of new players has led to many claiming Games Workshop are now exploiting their monopoly (so what else is new?), with one long time player describing the prices as "eye watering."
All in all this a really good article which could provide a good explanation to non-gamers just why we love our hobby. But could this article be a sign that gaming is moving more into the mainstream?
The popularity of wargaming cannot be denied, but is mainstream attention a good thing for the game?
Give the article a read guys and be sure to let us know your thoughts.
Why do you think adults are still getting into Warhammer?
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Did you fail to notice this paragraph though?
> Games Workshop’s executives say they don’t do media interviews, preferring to focus on their hobbyists. But chief executive officer Mark Wells emails me about the claim of price exploitation. “That would go against everything we stand for. It’s just not in our nature,” he writes.
HA !
Double HA!
nope, i saw it too, and laughed so hard a bit of wee wee came out.
The funniest thing is i think he’s serious
So. Many. Mocking. Words. Can’t. Choose.
What is there to notice?
There is a different between giving an interview and sending an email with regards to a claim of price exploitation.
“The popularity of wargaming cannot be denied, but is mainstream attention a good thing for the game?” Ill go with a “No” as this always seems to attract people that simply arent THAT much into wargaming. They tend to be less involved into the background , and mostly they are not interested in the background whatsoever. Or they turn Everything into a huge fucking joke ( like a pink painted gay Imperial army in Warhammer Fantasy with a “dark-room” steam tank, I simply dont like to play aginst such people as they ruin the overall feeling for me as its… Read more »
What’s wrong with super bright pink chaos space marines? It’s not like they did anything to offend you…. OK they are rather offensive but I really thought they where cool. I did a fluorescent army back in the day (face palm)
nothing wrong in general with any of it all 😀 not like I have something against gay people or people painting their armies pink ^^ BUT If you decide to play a game that has a rather grim background and thats why you like that particular game you are kind of repelled but such things ^^ I mean if it were part of the background that gay ( I have to emphasize this so much because my opponent specifically pointed out that his whole army is gay and had little flowers sticking out of every musket and cannon + said… Read more »
Then I guess that me using pokemon for my tide of spawn might have pissed some guys off.
I know what you mean by the fools that make the game all a joke and choose to mock other players or a minority. Is rare that I come across the type of player you mentioned, but I recall back in the day a boy that did his Nurgle marines buy dipping them all into bright green silicone. They where just blobs, you might see a weapon or two. That pissed me off as I had know idea what I was attacking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhyRpvgm03g
Why do we play with miniatures?
DUH because it’s fun!!
😀
I think the mainstream attention is good for the game, in-so-much as that it might attract people into wargaming who might have only been interested in the peripherally related games and books, or those who might have only popped into a GW store (then quickly popped out again after being ambushed by the GW Sales Hobbits lol). The article is a sign that more people are becoming aware of GW’s ”Hobby”, but the hobby as a whole isn’t something that can become mainstream because it requires effort to at least stick together and base the models, let alone spend time… Read more »
First thought that struck me when reading the article, and after I had finally stopped laughing at the Wellsism, was there is not enough being discussed about the alternative games. I know it is the 25th anniversary and all that, but even so, It just endorses the fallacy that GW IS the Hobby to the mainstream.
Off topic but… while Gawker Media and Techcrunch are basically calling commenting on the web trash and a waste of storage and bandwidth, I have to say commenting here on BoW has been a total pleasure. Sure we get the odd long me too type comment threads on competitions, but by far the quality of commenting here on BoW is among the highest out there. We always welcomed comments and see them as ‘the other 50%’ of the video/content, but to be honest found a lot of the commenting on youtube to be more noise less signal. Hopefully we can… Read more »
Cheers! I have no idea who Gawker Media or Techcrunch are but I agree about the comments on here being good. They make me see things from other people’s point of view which is always good and I do learn from them too.
My friend, ther is an “Emperor” about to come forth. It’s called TABLE TOP NATION!!!!!! LONG LIVE THE NATION!!!!
Lol, yeah, I was kinda hinting at Tabletop Nation to be honest lol 😉
dang – you seem to be channeling my inner dialog. Weird. Or I just agree too much. Mainstream isn’t something to worry about. Like being normal or becoming more normal.
The money hungry behemoth? Lets not get silly here. GW could potentially save themselves alot of money by closing a chunk of stores and not have to pay any cost with regards to renting shops or paying the staff within.
You’ll have to forgive me in believing that some people just latch on to the GW hate wagon far too easily and have not actually had a think with regards to some of the costs GW incurs.
If the stores are haemorrhaging cash then maybe GW need to have a think about how they want to operate rather than simply whacking up the price of the goodies.
It’s called have a solid business plan old fruit.
Something, ““That would go against everything we stand for. It’s just not in our nature,” 😛
Or let those stores set their own prices to drive business. If a store isn’t doing so well, offer a 10, 15% discount. Heck, if my local did that I’d be over the moon.
Well I meant that in the way the prices are high, including for items you can get cheaper elsewhere, and how they bring out box sets that don’t have all the models you need to field a unit-like the Space Wolves Thunderwolves Cavalry where the codex says a unit of 1-5, but the box only has 3. When people are on a budget, like myself, they don’t want to buy 2 boxes just to get the right number of models you want to have. I am aware that having stores, staff, factories to produce the minis, books, writers, artists, etc… Read more »
Oh, btw that was my reply to fleety – had to come back to it after bit of an interruption (real life, why you always interrupt my thinking about miniatures?) lol.
GW want to make money and are “greedy”: GOOD. Greed is good. It’s RIGHT that they want to make money. Why should anyone do anything FOR YOU for free? Make your own miniatures, etc. If GW, or any company, weren’t in it for the money, we wouldn’t have their games. And it’s that simple. We simply wouldn’t have the stunning range that they sell. However … what angers me about GW, and I think it angers others, is bad decisions they make which will damage both the brand and future profits in the long term – and GW hiking the… Read more »
There’s a big difference between greed (which I think is exactly what causes the problems you outline above) and wanting to make a living doing things you care about. If GW were in it for the money in the ’80s, they wouldn’t have been making metal space-knights and aliens and fantastically elaborate semi-RPG rules sets, they’d have been rolling around with giant cellphones and red braces like all the other yuppies who thought greed was good (and eventually screwed the whole Western economy). And if no-one did anything for free we wouldn’t have this website to discuss it on, and… Read more »
You think yuppies and greed caused the economy to be screwed? Heh. In the same way you think “greed” caused the economy to be screwed, you are wrong in the same manner “greed” caused GW to falter; this might not be intuitive to us. If GW didn’t work hard to make a maximized profit you wouldn’t have the vast range of models (or the technology developed / used to make them). And if GW didn’t make a profit that one could note, there would be less shareholders – and less product. Same with PP. You don’t think PP are greedy?… Read more »
And herein lies our argument: I think that greed (“intense or excessive desire, especially for food or wealth”) leads directly to people being a**holes and making bad choices as stated above. We’re circling around a problem of definition. I don’t think most companies are behaving in this manner, much less those producing a niche product like ours (little metal dudes are no-one’s idea of a get-rich-quick scheme), but I do think it has informed some of GW’s more short-sighted decisions like those mentioned above. I know the state of the economy is waaaaaaay off topic but I have to ask,… Read more »
@daverichilieu
“…those producing a niche product like ours (little metal dudes are no-one’s idea of a get-rich-quick scheme),”
Therein lies the nub of the issue perhaps. The GW board seem to think it is.
And it has to be said that having creamed off some tasty earnings they are in fact doing a good job of it.
At least for themselves.
I think you’ve confused greed with what Ayn Rand called “Rational Self-Interest.” It’s normal and rational to want to make a product people will want and sell it with an eye towards profit. Greed, however, leads to foolish, short-sighted decisions that will ultimately harm the company… which is what you discussed in your post, yes, but you don’t seem to consider it greed, even though that’s exactly what it is. GW may be doing well for now, but they have more competition than they may be willing to admit and the more they tick off their fanbase the more it… Read more »
Never hurts to have abit of mainstreem coverage of our ‘hobby’ Though some poeple would rarther teenagers go out boozing and getting stoned than having fun playing a harmless tabletop wargame.
Sad really. Ive been playing tabletop games for 20 years, and well I’m expecting to play for another 20 years too! As for the people GW bashing…please its getting very tedious now.
It is getting tedious so I’ll stop GW bashing, apologies for that – it just makes me stressed out to think about their prices whenever I see their new releases-their prices are not logical, captain! Except to give them more cash. I love the models and the worlds they created for them; they are fantastic (and I’ve got the first 3 Horus Heresy books recently to read through, after reading A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, which are brilliant books). If it weren’t for their prices, we’d all be happy. I’d be happy anyway. S’why I wait till birthday’s or… Read more »
There is bashing for the sake of it and there is fair criticism. The article was a good one imho and I don’t feel pessimistic about it as Partisan does. On the whole it was balanced and it certainly refrained from the point and laugh at nerds reportage that one would expect. My criticism is that the article was titled, “Why Do Grown Men Play With Toy Soldiers?” iirc, not, “Why do grown men play WH40k?” I remember there being a Wargame Soc at school c1972 and collecting Airfix OO/HO Napoleonics and modern figures, getting rulebooks from the library and… Read more »
Very true. The reporter only seemed to be aware of wargaming because GW has a visible presence on the high street, and so they totally forget about all other types of wargames and companies out there. Which is why there needs to be some way of making other wargames visible to the majority; an alternative to GW only hobby centres that allows you to see and play all sorts of games that are available. There are already independent games stores that run games, and some that have gaming tables open, but they are pretty few and far between-it’s certainly the… Read more »
….. or maybe… just maybe, it has something to do with it being GW’s 25th anniversary.
Look its not bashing to be not happy about mainstream…
Look at what happened to Metallica, Van Halen and Motley Crue to name a few.
Before mainstream hit these bands they were two fisted ass kicking rock bands. Now they are nothing more than candy ass crotch rockers who are a heart beat away from the dinner lounge circuit.
I rest my case, Mainstream sucks mule urine through a rusty screen door in the middle of July. It doesnt matter the game to the slobbering half witted fan boys 🙂
On the second two I accept your point, but I will shake my walking stick (wait I just *feel* that old) vigorously at any man who decries Death Magnetic. Metallica were just lulling us into a false sense of security!
The sub-heading to the article explicitly states that it is about 40K rather than an overview of a broader hobby. Besides, although I would love to see them talking about Infinity and more, this is going up on the BBC website, you have to break people in gently. They don’t know about overwatch yet, “It’s always your turn” could totally blow their minds. A couple of other pressing factors are GW’s presence on the high street and the ‘hook’ for regular folk that they are a visibly successful British business in difficult economic times, which might legitimate the article for… Read more »
@daverichelieu
Hold on bro. in defense of my some what glorious and strategic analogy
Last I heard Metallica was hosting boat cruises and dropping albums with gender benders like the velvet underground “Lou Reed”
How Metal is that ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9LcJwX9dnE
Now what were you saying about GW trying to hook regular folks- LOL
Aw now, Lou Reed is a legend, the chances of a collaboration with him turning out to be arse were a million to one – Metallica just got really, really unlucky.
OK so lets get Elton John to do a song or two with slayer or Megadeth he is a bone smoker that some deem as legend as well. However it would be a paradox to label that union as metal. Therefore the analogy is in tandem with the comparison that Mainstream some how equals a good thing in the end. Which could not be further from the truth, and that evidence can be seen in its early stages concerning the vulgar display of ignorance openly displayed by GW as of recent. I am a war gamer yes, but not a… Read more »
There was overwatch in 2nd Edition and in Space Hulk 2nd Ed too ;P But of course, not now. But they did know about it. Silly to get rid of it, it’s a basic strategy of combat. “Sergeant, you and your men hold this position and shoot anything that comes into view”. Makes sense to have it 🙂
Not a terrible article, in that it didnt paint us all as sad people with no lifes as is usually the case, but the title of the piece kind of sets the tone, and it doesnt help the cause at all. Whilst I agree with Chibi that it kind of portrays the hobby itself as ’40k’ and little more, I think that part is kind of forgivable given its primarily about the 25th anniversary thing . Whats more surprising is Fantasy never got, to my recollection, any such treatment, and that game, until recently at least, was always seen as… Read more »
I acknowledged the anniversary, but still feel the scope and tone could have been broadened a tad more. It is a good question to ask imho but ultimately the article did not address it. Maybe it is a good PhD thesis and the article didn’t have enough scope lol
I think you’re expecting a lot from the BBC, they’re hardly concerned with accuracy or representing reality.
It is a bad fact of life hobbywise that sadly Wargaming is GW. As much as I love this site it rubberstamps this perception of the hobby in a major way and is heavily biased toward GW in many respects. This is a result of the GW popularity however rather than intentional by BoW. Is the mainstream exposure a good thing? No. It fully concentrated on one producers product and confirmed the impression the masses have that this is all there is. Had the article attempted balance then maybe. Oh and before the flaming begins about GW bias here. Watch… Read more »
Don’t follow your reasoning Cadders, and sorry if I have misunderstood. I like BoW as a hobby site because it does cover all the other games. I rather think you are correct about the popularity of GW here. For example you only have to see the number of comments swell exponentially regarding GW features, in contrast to non GW which barely get into double figures. That is not the fault of BoW but of us punters. In fact I dislike BoW because they keep making me want to buy lots and lots of superb models that the non GW chaps… Read more »
I am not too sure I get your point but I’d just point out BoW give the people what they want and do what they personally love. As for historical figures, I always look at historical figures and think how they might fit in a Warhammer context. Why shouldn’t I? People are always looking for better priced miniatures for Warhammer.
Yeah, that title kind of belittles the whole wargaming thing, but the article itself was complimentary to it.
It’s all about having fun, like bloodhunter said 🙂
a bit concise, I’d like to see something with a bit more meat on it. Who knows some TV producer may have seen it and may care to expand on the theme.
It didn’t show wargamming in a bad light, there were some nice clear shots of models and hopefully into sparked some interest in somone.
“There’s no such thing as bad publicity”
If something like this provides new opponents and therefore boosting sales of wargames manufacturers, who will then go on to making more shiney things for us. I can handle some of that.
To be honest, I think the more main stream attention war gaming gets the better it will be. The reason I say this is for a few things: 1. For us older gamers, we can be more at ease as more people except it and you don’t have to feel like you have to justify your hobby as if your some 40 year old virgin in your mom’s basement. 2. Kids will be more open to invite friends over for a game and not be picked on. Pier pressure is probably the number 1 reason kids stay away from the… Read more »
valuable points you have there ^^
When my wife comes into our local GW with me I am always tempted to see if she could walk out with a Baneblade just by asking for it. I’m biased, but she’s roomin’ gorgeous.
The more mainstream can be viewed differently based on the mental picture I get of a two edged sword. Meaning I only see 2 paths that will open up from over exporsure… First being the higher the demand the more relentless the hobby is towards your wallet. We have seen simular trends show through in other formats Like RPG’s and CCG’s. So that is no good. Second is with a higher demand and price tag GW will get even more greedy and put even less thought in the game itself. And more focus on production and how quick they can… Read more »
I don’t really see how a kid having an X-box works out cheaper than getting into wargaming. they eat through games in no time and they always want the latest titles. If your prepared to spend £40 a month on a new video game why not spend it on toy soldiers? As far as £ = enjoyment theres definitely more to be gained from miniatures. According to google the number 1 hobby in the UK is fishing, not sure how accurate that is but its definitely very popular. The cost of setting up a fishing rig is anything from £500… Read more »
cut off a weird chunk off my post…
what i was saying was…
we need more game stores to be like this – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5WlI2tXr4
Independent game stores need to make more of an effort, a franchise to rival games workshop that stocked all the other great games would be great for the hobby. Hopefully one day it will happen
I agree.
The world needs more independent stores and “hobby centres” like MWG, somewhere you can go and play a game without getting a constant sales pitch from the staff, or bogged down with 100s of kids who don’t take the hobby even semi-seriously.
I mean, a place where you can show your army list to the people working there, asking for advice, and they won’t instantly suggest you need the most expensive unit available for your army, and that they have them in stock. >_<
I don’t know man to take just the example given and ignore the meat of the comment, then run like a scalded dog. Thats a hard act to follow-but ok
xbox is much cheaper especially with the used game market. My son can turn games over at 5 and ten bucks a pop. For 10 dollars I cant even sniff the box that has the bold letters “FINE CAST” on it.
Well for me it’s cheaper. I part-exchanged a bunch of old games and dvds to get a 40GB PS3 and got a game with it a coupla years ago. I get games either from online or Computer Exchange; a second hand games shop in the UK. As you pointed out, where kids are concerned (the types who have parents that can afford to throw £40 away per month-mine certainly couldn’t when I were a kid) you could spend that money on miniatures instead (again mine couldn’t). But what’s easier-playing a game or making something? And spending £400/500 40K is only… Read more »
@majordutch Right on, and to each there own concerning what hobby one wants to embark upon… Yes kids have zero attention spans and it would be a good thing to have them do war gaming rather than video games Here’s why, in a video game setting everything is done for you meaning the visual is there, the audio is there ,the background is there, and the objective is obvious. There is no sense of wonder or pathways for ones mind to travel using the game as a vehicle. Everything is right there in front of you just give the controller… Read more »
They couldda chosen a better pic of the ‘crons for the first image… I mean, they’re pretty crapily painted, and not even stuck together right. They should be hunched over, not stood perfectly upright, that just makes it look like they’ve got something stuck up their arse. They’ve built them wrong, and then just drybrushed them in boltgun metal, painted the gauss flayer black and stuck in the rod. Lame. Mine have bronze/gold “sternums” and “spines”, blue shoulder blade-plate things, I painted the eyes… etc. Seriously, I painted my Warriors some 5 years ago, and they STILL look better than… Read more »
Also, just to add, the green glow from the rods on the arms and hands of the Warriors was my first ever attempt as OSL painting. Looking at it now I realise I couldda done a lot better, but I’ve had a lot more practice. Still, it doesn’t look bad… at least, I don’t think so. :p
There would be both pros and cons to wargaming being more mainstream. Pros: 1. With more of an audience there would be more competition and we would probably see prices drop and new interesting wargames come out. 2. The more the marrier and the less wargamers would be made fun of Cons: 1. With more players we would be bound to get more players who don’t really try, never take the game seriously, are power gamers or are just generally annoying 2. WIth more popularity and more demand, the companies we know and love today may start to slowly slip… Read more »
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/peter-cushing
…”a game for boys from twelve to a hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl *BAAM…add random 50s chauvinism right there* who likes boys games and books.”
😀
That was funny article.
By the way this was very GW centric article as other companies like PP were not even mentioned. To people that don’t know better that might give expression that there is not others and GW is only company making these games. As we all know thats not true at all but not everyone knows it.
I never even commented on the article. D’oh. I figure mainstream attention is definitely a good thing, how many of us got into the hobby through Heroquest/Space Crusade, or 40K? Maybe today there are a few more. Bonus.
GW make the effort to be on the highstreet, it’s hardy surprising other companies game systems were not touched upon in any great detail. I would conjecture most gamers in the last couple of decades got into the overall hobby through GW. Media attention on the hobby can only be a good thing. It generates more interest and creates conversation and promotion which propels the overall industry forwards.
Articles like this from the BBC worry me. As a shareholder in GW I’m a little concerned to hear regular customers refer to their prices as ‘eye watering’. It puts potential gamers off. That’s bad for me. Yes, GW are doing superbly at the moment but is anyone else thinking – Life, what’ll it be this year? Will the wife’s Louis Boutin’s finally be cheaper than a Necron? My real concern is I can’t see a long term. A chum at wokr has bought a 3d printer. At the moment it’s sort of dot matrix, but in a few years… Read more »
Despite being marked down by the people that can’t be bothered to post a reasoned reply as to why I am wrong I will say it again. The board are creaming off profits. Wells and his sidekick don’t give a poop about the long term future of GW. Having awarded themselves plenty big dividends and bonuses at a time when the company was not making any growth will be seen as lining their nests ready for their retirement. The article mentioned the dividends payout, ” How many other British companies, for example, could report a 40% rise in their latest… Read more »
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=39352308&ticker=GAW:LN
I think it’s typical for the big name to get all the glory in such an article. Though it would break the average heart here to hear it, GW did not invent wargames, nor are they the only game (nor the best – sorry, guys!) in town. But you see the same thing happening anytime there’s news for D&D. When 5th Ed was announced, the press pounced on the notion that WoTC was somehow doing something new and innovative in asking their fanbase to participate in development. But there’s nothing new about that at all, and in fact, in all… Read more »
People complaining that the article doesn’t mention other games companies have obviously missed the point. The article came about because GW recently reached 25 years of being around. It’s in the first line of the article, in bold no less. Warhammer 40,000 – set in a science fantasy universe – has just turned 25. Why are grown men still launching tabletop war? This article is a fluff piece; nothing more. If you really thought that the article would be some all-encompassing thing that would talk about the many other game systems, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you. GW… Read more »
Not missing the point at all There is nothing wrong in suggesting that an article about why adults play with toy soldiers could not have been broadened We know that it was sparked off by the anniversary, but so what? Wargamming has been going on for a lot longer. cf the video that Lucas provided a linky for. What has changed perhaps are the perceptions of (generally male) hobbies. Can’t remember where I saw it but there was a discussion of how it was accepted and even expected that adults would have some sort of pastime, iirc the item was… Read more »
I didn’t say there was anything wrong with people suggesting that the article might have expanded upon to include other company game systems, I said there was something wrong with people complaining that it didn’t.
There is a difference.
Nor did I say Wargaming wouldn’t be around if GW didn’t exist. I said that other companies certainly benefit from GW being around. You can’t possibly dispute that.
So what I am seeing is suggestion is different from what you are seeing as a complaint.
You are still incorrect imho. Unless you are specifically referring to companies who make accessories to be used with GW products, I don’t see how GW has that much influence. Marginal at best for getting people interested.
But people were interested in Wargamming a long time before
Why pay loads for minis and spend all that time painting when you can play Semantics: The Board Game tm on the internet for free? 😉