OPS Center Goes To Vietnam!

Thanks very much as always for hosting my content @stvitusdancern and @warzan and team!!!

I don’t care who you are “back in the world” … it’s time to go “in country!”

😀 😀 😀

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limburger

And thank you for yet another interesting podcast 😀 Do these special forces include the ‘A-Team’ from the TV-series ? 😉 IIRC ‘A-team’ is what the 4(?) man spec ops teams in the Green berets are called, right ? The Americans not wanting to enter Vietnam is something we also see in their response to operation ‘Product’ ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Product ) and again with Operation Crow ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Kraai ). Like the French we wanted our colonies back (which we lost to the Japanese at the start of WW2). Although unlike the French we tried to do it by political means (the… Read more »

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To my knowledge “A-Teams” or “Able” Teams or “Alpha” teams were 12-man units, which could break into two 6-man teams if required. Nowadays they call them ODAs (Operational Detachment Alpha), supported by field ops units like ODBs (Operation Detachment Bravo). That’s trucks, helos, comms, other battlefield support. The idea was usually to deep-insert into the high mountain regions of South Vietnam and later Laos and Cambodia to find, contact, befriend, and train local militia from ethnic groups that hated the Communist Vietnamese (both north – NVA … and south … NLF / VC). Actually, @stvitusdancern would be the authority on… Read more »

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gamertod

Hi Oriskany,
I’ve seen and enjoyed your games, especially the Valor & Victory games in different era’s from standard WW2.
I’m especially interested in the Vietnam era (my time in service) and first Indochina War. I would be most interested in trying some of your in-house games for Valor & Victory, especially the Vietnam and Indochina area games. Are counters and maps available on line anywhere (free or otherwise)??
Thanks for your time!
gamertod

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No worries, @gamertod – I have sent a reply to your PM.

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donimator

Great intro. My only gaming experience in ‘Nam was Victory Games old hex and counter Vietnam 1965-1975, which was a bit of a monster. Played the intro scenarios and Battle for I Corps a couple of times. We tried a campaign a few times but never really got past the first few years. Campaigns dived into political leadership, pacification, strategic bombing with table after table to roll & record results between seasons. It has a Vassal module that plays well, so this may encourage me to dig for my rules and start up a game again!

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gladesrunner

Wow, that game sounds almost as complicated as the real thing. It reminds me of long term campaign role playing games combined with multi-levels of wargaming.

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It’s a beast. Victory Games did not play around back in the “Golden Age of Gaming.” 😀

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Thanks, @donimator – yes, I think I know the game you’re talking about. I’ve only SEEN it played a couple times back in the day but yes, people would tell me it could sometimes feel like you were replaying the Vietnam War in real time. 😐 I picked up a couple games at Historicon – “Mike Force” – an operational “Special Forces Management” game I guess you could call it, or special forces campaign game, etc. A Vietnam scenario for the “Combat Veteran” series by Joseph Miranda. This, plus the Force on Force and Valor & Victory we’re doing already,… Read more »

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darthcheese

I had this back in the day. A lot of card in that box

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@darthcheese – those were the days, eh? Strategy & Tactics Magazine still publishes 18 of those titles a year for their three magazines, S&T, World at War, and Modern War. Of course, these games are no where near the size of the old ones. But they keep the candle burning in the darkness. Decision Games I think still publishes some good old-fashioned monsters, though.

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huscarle

There are periods of history that I’d love to recreate on the tabletop but have never gotten around to starting. Vietnam is very high on that list. I’ll be following this series

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gladesrunner

Good Luck! Go with Hex and Counter!!! When Oriskany was building his tables for his games all I heard was “I have to make more F@#*ing TREES.”

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Best tip for big slashes of jungle terrain … go to the Craft Store and buy those 12″x12″ plastic “trays” of fake plants for aquariums, etc. DON’T take the individual “plants” off of the frame. Just cut the tray into an irregular shape. Do this for 10-12 trays of different types, you’ll wind up with 20-30 fields of terrain. A few plastic palm trees from the craft store (I dust them with a highlight from the airbrush so they don’t look quite so “fishtank”) and you’re done.

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huscarle

That’s not a problem as I made all the jungle for our groups Pacific games. There’s 6 boxes of it on top of my wardrobe. I cut all mine up though and based the lot on irregular shaped MDF covered in sprackle.

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Sounds great! Mine’s all plastic so I can store it in a bin in non-climate controlled storage. Storage space is always the killer, eh?

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Awesome, @huscarle , thanks very much! We hope to have one out every other Friday or so (apologies, this one went out a little late, it was on YouTube yesterday).

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huscarle

I’ve subscribed so I won’t miss out 🙂

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Appreciate the support, @huscarle ! We’re small but fierce! 😀

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nosbigdamus

brilliant.

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Thanks @nosbigdamus ! 😀

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templar007

This is one that I’ve been waiting for!

Hopefully the info in this series will super charge my Flames of War: Vietnam collection to some really great games.

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Sounds great @templar007 ! All my minis for Vietnam are 1:100, same as Flames of War “Nam”, so we’ve got you covered! 😀

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thebelon

Cant wait to watch the rest of this series. I have been collecting 20mm Vietnam models for a few years but keep changing the ruleset i plan on using hopefully this series will point me in the right direction. I keep changing my mind from force on force ambush ally to FNG as well as charlie don’t surf and the men of company b by peter pig. The model collection keeps growing but i can’t stick with a rule set. Does anyone have a favourite system for gaming in Vietnam?

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Thanks very much, @thebelon ! I’ll be honest, I haven’t played all the systems you mention. I have two favorites, but one doesn’t really “count.” The one that “doesn’t count” is Valor & Victory. It’s originally a print-n-play WW2 squad-level infantry game, but we’ve been expanding it into Vietnam and other more recent conflicts (we’ve gotten as far as Lebanon 1982 and Falklands 1982 so far). But for “official” releases, especially those that use miniatures, honestly I stick with Force on Force / Ambush Valley Vietnam supplement. The reason (as I always say) is that Force on Force is still… Read more »

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thebelon

Bam ? cheers for the advice, gonna get my force on force books out and do some reading. The other cool thing about this system is its solo rules so i can give some scenarios a go to learn the rules before trying to play it with the group.

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@thebelon – I also like the “hot spot” mechanic when it comes to the VC, it can be used to approximate some of the vast tunnel complexes found in places like the Iron Triangle and Hobo Woods (II Corps Sector).

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gladesrunner

Epic! 😀 I always learn at least a little history from these, but this one in particular was a nice tight summary.

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@gladesrunner : 30-year war in about 15 minutes … yeah, we have to make it tight. 😀

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soulman

I wonder if bolt action will visit this next… they are doing a version 3 at some point ?

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@soulman – Actually talked about this with Charlie from Warlord Games at the Bolt Action boot camp last year. At the time, they were looking into it. It’s definitely doable, but it won’t be easy. By way of comparison, I have expanded / converted Barry Doyle’s Valor & Victory WW2 squad-based infantry system to Vietnam. So I’ve done this exercise, I’ve been down this road, and I know where all the booby traps are, so to speak, in this process. 😀 Some people say that the Bolt Action Korea is a step in this direction. I would agree that it… Read more »

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soulman

So kind of you to take the time in replying to my short line early today. Not much i can comment on as you indeed a wise king to my knowledge of this.. I`m working on some ww2 rules at the moment, something a little different to whats on the market. I may get brave and ask you one day to flip though a few pages for your input…. I feel your knowledge would guide me well.. Enjoy the rest of your day and thanks

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No worries, @soulman ! 😀 I’m always here.

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damon

More good stuff. There’s so much myth and misinformation about ‘Nam that digging into the facts can be challenging; but then when you do find the ‘facts’ it’s often even more confusing or surreal than the stories. It’s good to see a genuine effort to portray the facts.

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Thanks, @damon . 😀 I’m certainly not trying to piss anyone off or tell anyone that their favorite movies are terrible … I certainly won’t get into whether we should or shouldn’t have been there. Ops Center lays out some dates, some facts, some names, and goes into the political background of a modern war JUST ENOUGH to explain why these people were fighting. Narrative is a huge part of gaming, as everyone says. Stay away from politics, everyone says. Sadly, for Modern War, these two maxims verge on the antithetical. Verge, but not 100%. It’s that sliver of grace… Read more »

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limburger

Hasn’t war always been politically motivated ?
What made Vietnam unique was the influence the media had due to the near instant updates of the war, which directly influenced the political sitation on the homefront.

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Yeah, but bringing up politics usually brings down a shitstorm, so despite the political motivations I handle it objectively, lightly, quickly, and then move on before I draw too much fire. 😀

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jemmy

Thanks very much.
For those interested and being more of a reading type there is also an article series on the Vietnam war by @oriskany on OTT. It is indeed extremely good and enjoyable to read.
After I read this article series some time ago I played some of the suggested city battles and I imagined them to take place in Hue and Saigon. I was astonished to hear that Vietnam war is not just all about jungle fighting.
So, I´d like to get more information about the not-in-the-jungle battles in Vietnam.

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Thanks very much for the call-back to the old Tet Offensive series, @jemmy . Yes, for the 50th Anniversary of the Tet Offensive (January-February 2018) we had a five part series. That was just about the one offensive, though, primarily during those two months. Here we’re taking a much broader view, and looking att he whole war (albeit in much less detail, obviously). Yeah, Jungles in Vietnam is mostly a II. and III. Corps sector thing. I Corps in the far north is still heavily forested, but honestly I think the bigger terrain feature there is mountains and hills. In… Read more »

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jemmy

Looking forward to it and also to a whole bunch if new picture I haven´t seen yet .

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Yep, we do have some new ones! 😀

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A nice rundown of the Indochina war’s I never knew that the disagreements started back in 45 and slowly escalated as time went by. the La dgang Battle? was the bases of the We were soldiers film i see from the info.

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Yep, the two battles of Ia Drang were in November of 1965. Often cited as the “official” start of the war as it was the first major battle between NVA and US ground forces. Others use the Tonkin Gulf Incident in 1964, as it was used to get Presidential war powers approved via US Congressional resolution. Although to be honest, American advisors were in long before that (President Kennedy), and then even before that as early as 1958 I think (President Eisenhower). So my graphic uses 1962-1975 dates, which a lot of people agree with almost by mutual consent, but… Read more »

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Yup the whole region turned into a major cluster fcuk for most of people/countries involved.

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@zorg – Laos, last I read, remains the most-heavily bombed country in human history, more than Germany and Japan put together (and yes, that includes the nukes). Cambodia would see the largest genocide since World War II, although sadly that record may have been broken in Rwanda and Darfour, I honestly don’t know. The killing would only stop when a united Communist Vietnam INVADED Cambodia (a fellow “communist” power) and knocked out the Khmer Rouge. Then Vietnam and Communist China went to the mat in a BIG war in 1979-80, again “red on red” violence. The only silver lining is… Read more »

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I think they’re still to clear all the war materials from the previous fighting I seen on the top gear Vietnam special they stopped at a field and it was full of wrecked tanks and things then later they found a B52 tail in a village pond but its good that things are quiet now.

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Yeah, I saw that episode. Funny, but eh … “We’re gonna do what the whole US military couldn’t do in 10 years … get to Hanoi …”

Really?

The US military ever tried to invade North Vietnam? That was ever contemplated? That was ever even an option?

Unless they were TRYING to be funny there?

I wasn’t laughing.

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Yes that was when they started to go OTT with their stunts but mostly good fun show. off course no one was shooting at them and they still got lost I think?

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That was the one where they tried motorcycles, right? And one guy wound up riding a moped or a bicycle?

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yup I think so.

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Clarkson did fall of his bike.

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The line I remember: “Is he … in fact … the most STUPID human being to have ever existed?” 😀

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Lol they were say that kind of thing about each other someway on most of shows they are predictable that way.

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😀

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neves1789

Good listen as always. The last year I’ve been steadily building on my 15mm Vietnam collection, for now I’ve got a single based VC company, US platoon and multibased (aka FoW) NVA battalion, US rifle company, 10 helicopter and an armored cavalry troop. The riverine force still needs some paint (and my table some brown rivers!). The missions in the ‘Nam book are very fun and feel diverse enough from regular FoW to not just be playing WW2 with Vietnam mini’s. For FoF I might take a look at the Tet assault on the US embassy, or maybe I’ll use… Read more »

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Thanks @neves1789 – Man, sounds like you have quite the Vietnam force, and in three different factions, too! I Have US Army UH-1s and UH-1H gunships, USMC M48A3 tanks, and NVA PT-76s (really only used once at Lang Vei but I kept the markings generic enough where I can still use them on a Soviet Team Yankee board if I really want). But no Mobile Riverine Force boats (that’s a IV Corps thing, as we’ll see in Part 2). we’ve done the assault on the US Embassy in Valor & Victory. Well, attempted might be a better word. V&V is… Read more »

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richardd

from downunder the movie “Danger Close” starts Thursday- the battle of Lang tan, shorts looks great. I hope that you will cover this battle 🙂

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@richardd – I have good and bad news for you. Bad news first – no, we will not be covering Long Tan because we won’t really be covering any battles. A few will be mentioned (like Ia Drang and Tet – although Tet isn’t really a “battle”) only because they fundamentally altered the course of the war. We’ll be covering TYPES of battles, and some ideas on how they might be represented in wargaming. Tactics, equipment, debunking a few movies (because they’re always sooooo reliable), etc. We will be covering Phuoc Tuy province in our “Areas of conflict” segment, where… Read more »

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@oriskany cool sitrep, and well done for managing to condense one complicated war into a pint size chunk for the average gamer. This was one of the 1st wars that I built forces for after leaving the The RAF in 1981 using a set of rules called Gia Miah (I think) still got the little green book some where. Figures were 20mm from a company long gone with very brittle metal. Initally with Airfix Centurions for Anzac, and heavily converted soft plastic M48’s that came in their battle sets.M113’s were initially some awful resin ones until skytrex started doing Nam.… Read more »

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Yeah, @bobcockayne – the Vietnam War’s not really a big thing in the UK. Great Britain was never involved (outside of a few people leaving the British Army to join the Australian Army. Even the Australians rank fourth in the Allied factions, with the US, then ARVN, then South Korea, and finally Australia. New Zealand would send a couple of companies later in the war (only then would it become “ANZAC”). Indeed, M48A3s are where its at for Vietnam armor, supplemented by some Army and ARVN M41 Bulldogs. The NVA only used PT-76s once, MAYBE twice, at least until the… Read more »

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torros

I think I mentioned it before but I did speak to a couple of guys who I know could be trusted who said they knew a few members of the shall we say British Special Advisor Service who went to Vietnam unofficially

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Yeah dude, I remember the mention. Still haven’t seen a source, so … yeah. I’m gonna have to leave it there.

Now if we’re talking about a handful of British Army / SAS that resigned ratings and commissions … and perhaps even citizenship … not sure about that last part … to serve in the Australian SAS as part of 1ATF … then we agree. We’re talking about the same thing and there are actually records on that.

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@oriskany remember reading a FOW Vietnam game where they had T55’s vs Aussie Centurions, thought it was funny that they allowed The former, but didn’t allow the latter AP rounds as Historically they didn’t carry them! The forgot that the latter reason was as you mentioned they only expected at the most PT76’s , plus wasn’t the the Aussie sector in the southern region of South Vietnam so somebody might have noticed a few T55’s heading south, I know the Vietkong/NVA were sneaky! I’ve heard rumours similar to @torros comment but never seen any sources , AS you say it… Read more »

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Regarding the Australian Centurions … *sigh* … I mean people do know that we’re talking one squadron of tanks at a time, maybe … never more that twenty at the MOST in the whole country … and only for very limited windows of time? And you’re right, never faced off against enemy armor, much less T-55s. The only time the NVA used tanks to my knowledge was Lang Vei, one company of PT-76s, and this was at the extreme northwestern corner of the country, while the Australians were at the extreme southeastern part of the country (Phouc Tuy province, occasionally… Read more »

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@oriskany well said, Its a bit of what @warzan was on about on XLBS in the desperate attempt to play tournament style balanced games, if you have Cents , you must have T55’s to balance, no doubt we will see it a bit with Bolt action Korean war. I amended the old Pony Wars system to run NVA/NLF as AI and everyone played Americans/Anzacz , don’t think we ever won one even if we killed hundreds of them!.

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I still want to come up with some kind of way to “AI” the NVA in Valor & Victory and run platoons of US Marines through the DMZ Hill Fights of late ’67 (26th Marines vs. NVA 325C Division).

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@oriskanyI I did a streamlined version of it for Hammers Slammers, think I’ve converted it for a couple of systems. IF I can find the file I’ll send it to you.

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Epic @Bobcockayne ! Hammer’s Slammer’s is totally a Vietnam novel series, as I’m sure you know … written by a former intelligence officer with 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment serving in Vietnam (to the point where the sci-fi rebels often wear black pajamas).

Yeah, if there are good AI rules in there, or at least ideas, I might steal them. No one wants to let me play the Marines. 🙂 If you need me to PM you my e-mail address, just let me know.

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intelligentmistertoad

“Tango Mike” for the new episode Jim.

I have long been interested in Vietnam, but realy got interested when watching my first Beast’s of War video which was “Nam Week”.

I found Ken Burns documentary series very helpful and interesting, but the book that realy shaped my thinking was Dr Gibson’s great work “The Perfect War: Technowar in Vietnam “.

I realy enjoy FoW “Nam”and have a disturbingly large collection.

The key impressions that I am left with are of the great heroism and trgedy of the conflict, and the sheer complexity of it all.

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Thanks very much @intelligentmistertoad ! 🙂 Sounds like you have a big Nam collection. Multiple factions or all one side? My favorite documentary series on the topic is Battlefield Vietnam – very objective and impartial – covers the whole conflict from an analytical view without the anecdotal emotionalism that seems to plague a lot of documentaries these days.

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intelligentmistertoad

Hi Jim,

I will check out the recommended Battlefield Vietnam. When I went for “Nam” I went all out and literally bough the lot from Battlefront. So much colour and character. I even have a North Vietnamese Ironclad Compant. Happily my ARVN M113 Objective marker took 1st place in its category in the painting competition at Battlefronts recent openday.

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