Weekender XLBS: Kings Of War’s Time To Shine?
July 12, 2015 by dignity
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Happy Sunday.
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday!
ooooohhhhh XLBS and a cuppa tea in the morning….. you know your getting old when thats all you need to be happy!
Happy Sunday!
Comment on the effects of historical symbology on modern perspectives: far too much is taken out of context that society in general, is in real danger of becoming so ‘clinicised’ we then become afraid to speak or profer opinion! Free speech dies and 1984 becomes an ever looming reality! Appreciating, that where practical, we must attempt to be sympathetic to areas of sensitivity that may cause others distress or hurt!
I know that if we mention 1984 as a concept you run the risk of being perceived as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but you post hits close to the mark for me, I just feel society is on a bit of a knife edge these days where panic, overreaction, outrage and scandal are like a drug that is being fed to us rather than reasoning. My fear is that the answers lead us to a much darker place (but I recognise that in me at least is as much a fear of the unknown as it is rational) but I… Read more »
I don’t know whether to say if I trust politicians or not. I need to check the opinion polls, social media trends and the latest headlines first!
The analogy used is along the same lines of ‘lest we forget’. Those relatives of ours who, according to their reality of the day, were fighting a tyrannical regime which they perceived as threatening the very core ideals of life as they would like it to be, enabled us today, to be able to express opinions and engage in dialogue without the fear of serious repercussions. To be able to ‘play’/re-enact historical events whilst keeping in context of what you are trying to achieve, win a game, have fun, share time together etc. As an aside, those game creators, like… Read more »
The thing with the whole “trusting politicians” thing is that it really is part of their job to lie. People get stuck on the they lied to us about relatively minor things like affairs etc. But they’re bound to have bigger lies to tell to protect us and the country. They will take the blame on themselves to save the greater picture. At least that is a slightly better way to think?
Liars, Bloody Liars, Politicians
And that holds true any where in the world
The US Congress usually gets extremely low job approval ratings in polling. This is countered by the high approval rating of a persons own Member of Congress. So the electorate every two years elects these people to serve all the while thinking that Congress is doing a horrible job. All of this leads to distrust by the general population that does not get involved and only engages when something happens they have been told to dislike or distrust. That being said there are groups that think all politicians are evil and those that feel that all government is evil, many… Read more »
Here is the other part of my earlier post as I think they should be separated even if they discuss the same issues. Right now history shows us that the knife edge is not much different that it has been in the past. The world is generally ignoring the new growth of Antisemitism and there is more of a push to separate people based on creed and color. This push is based on arguments that many thought are old and gone yet they continue to be brought to the fore so there will be strife. The same emotional arguments that… Read more »
…don’t know about paranoid, but if you type the ‘Illuminati’ backwards and add a ‘.com’ – see where it takes you!
The flag issue has been going on for years. Many in the southern states still associate with it as a symbol of their heritage. Some have unfortunately used it as a symbol of hate and discrimination. One must remember most who fought in the ACW were small farmers look to protect their way of life. For them it had nothing to do with slavery. A terrible injustice that thankfully was ended during that terrible time in this country’s history. I do think we have become over sensitive to difficult items and it is easier to just bury it and pretend… Read more »
unfortunately it doesn’t end there. The confederate flag becamw the symbol of the resistance to the civil rights movement in America in the 50’s as well which is when some states started to fly it from their state buildings.
In that case we might as well ban the Union Flag as that was hijacked by the National Front!
You’re missing the point – the pro-segregation/racist groups used an unofficial flag to rally around. They didn’t use the official Stars and Stripes flag.
By contrast the National Front wants to position itself as patriotic ‘defenders’ so rally around the official Union flag.
The analogy would work if the National Front rallied around another, unofficial flag, like the British Union of Fascists symbol.
I like the idea of everyone acting at the same time. I feel it brings some of the chaos of podracing to the game. “Sure, I was intending to try and slam my pod into my opponent, but oh no! He decided to break at the same time, meaning I’m sent slamming into the cliff”
As an American living in the South, let me chime in my two cents here. I feel this particular issue with the Confederate flag being removed and banned is a question on several levels. On some levels I feel “removing” it is the right thing to do, on others I do not. Most immediately to current events, the mass shooting triggered the flag being taken down from the South Carolina state capital. On this level, I completely agree with the decision. Not only does the flag represent (to many people) racism and slavery, but to some of the more historically-minded,… Read more »
about the podracing turns: throwing a die and then moving that number of spaces seems a bit too random (and boardgamish) to me. Here’s a quick idea I came up with. You assign a certain die type to the different speeds (D6 for very low speeds up to @warzan ‘s beloved D24 for extreme speeds). You also make a bunch of different curved templates marked with the movement increments you use for the game so you have short tight curves with say 6 cases on them and long sweeping ones with maybe 20. (never mind colours and stuff) The player… Read more »
as far as flags go in war games I feel you can re-enact or even re-imagine a historical battle or war without having to support a single cause or connotation of your own side, if no one had a german mini army FoW would be a little weird. another thing is some things have no way of being brought to the table anyway. Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher, Wellington’s pal, is said to have thought a baby elephant was in his stomach but how that could play out in a game is beyond me. Just some thoughts, deliberately side stepping atrocities… Read more »
Ok the Confederate Flag represents the South who fought the civil war on a range of issues however central was the right to keep slaves. Subsequently its, despite losing, remained part of the South identity and a rally banner for those who are discontent. The killer of whom you speak was pictured with a range of white supremacy iconography of which the Confederate flag was one.
In regards to banning anything due to some crazed/uneducated/poorly brought up/ what ever/ person, Its just not a solution. Education, is the issue here, sometimes extremely poor parenting (as a nanny I know this isn’t always the case. You can have wonderful parents and a child can still grow up to be a poor excuse for a human being). If a person is so inclined to do harm to others, they will find a cause that fits them, and a way of doing said harm and use the cause as an excuse for their behaviour. Banning an object wont prevent… Read more »
Happy Sunday!
Warzan’s – you say AoS will never go back to units on movement trays etc. Sorry to disagree, but I can see that happening eventually. 1) some players are already using trays as a convenience & 2) remember how LOTR became WotR? Won’t happen overnight but it’ll creep that way slowly.
We where using movement trays last night – and ok we might have gone overboard 521 figures
I’m afraid warzan here in the UK we don’t teach history correctly, our schools skirt around subjects and never touch on route issues. As you said if we don’t learn from the past we will never understand how to act in the future. Even our own history is very dark at times, but we still game these periods. I am of the thought of the past is the past. The ACW is my main period of interest and I’m an Englishman. I love all aspects of American history and cultures, being that it is a fairly new country in history.… Read more »
Chaingun, I’m a teacher in the States and I can tell you we don’t either. This issue is a product of our failure to accurately educate students of our / their own history.
Well. Wasn’t that a more, ah lets say ‘deep’ episode of the weekender than we are used to.
lol it can happen 🙂
check out http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/Sit-Talk-Random-Questions-1bpo4 it’s a wargaming QandA but he spends 10 to 15 minutes explaining the difference he sees between religious views having a place in politics and religious views being used against certain groups.
@phalanx58. I agree. This is not the forum to have lengthy historical theses! BUT … Every war creates war crimes. No country has ever escaped from this happening by the men and women that fight for that country. From ancient Greeks to the USA in recent conflicts, abuses of other troops and civilians is regrettably common. These abuses must to openly discussed. And everyone needs to be made aware of the horrors that have and do happen during conflicts. As an historical wargamer, I am trying to recreate a version of history on the table top. Armies flew flags. These… Read more »
This Flag that my country is talking about is , on one side it is a symbol of pain and suffering of a people that lived in slavery for 200 hundred years , and than suppress the rights of these people from the end of civil war to today. the flag of northern Virginia was put there on the state capital in 1961 to show resistance to fed laws by the state of South Carolina. It is a flag that has been used to symbolize hate on people in this modern age. Now on the other side it is a… Read more »
You expressed ‘both’ sides of this very well. I am very happy that the BoW guys were able, as they have shown in the past, to be the voice of reason in a hotly debated topic of emotion. Over and over again these guys shown that as “grab assy” (quote from an old coach) as they can be they have the mental maturity to put that aside and discuss a hot topic with thought and reason and not just emotion.
In a way though – along with the wargaming, there is of course a huge desire to discuss and explore the history of it.
We might want to for instance play out the Rouke’s Drift campaign, but it’s kind of important to know the background. What had occurred to push the Zulu uprising? [They were actually being bullied by the British]
Happy Sunday guys. If Kings of War have anything up their sleeves for a big slap in the face release now is the time. The vacuum that GW has left is there for the taking but I imagine it will also add pressure on the KoW team as they have nowhere hide with anything they go forward with. Symbolism is so powerful these days. Even now many associate the Swastika with just the terrible acts of recent history but I wonder how those same people would interpret it upon finding it on a Buddhist temple during a visit to Asia.… Read more »
I’m not such an advocate of one game company ‘slapping another’s face’ approach, but would like to see more interdependencies as opposed to independence! Although I do see your point. Take for example, say, GSG, in comparison to the likes of GW, they are small fry, but they have been around for a long time and are still going. GZG and other companies like them exist along side of and interdependent with many other small companies, making enough to pay wages and have a living, they will probably never make millionaire status or float on the stock exchange, but all… Read more »
It seems you have misunderstood my meaning or I have misunderstood your response buddy 🙂 I meant them slapping the consumer with some nice models, a big release, a campaign, whatever they have been keeping up their sleeve or held back for a rainy day. Something that draws those who are not feeling the new AoS across to them. Nothing to do with anything between the companies. Funny thing is I am part of an independent company and we are looking to provide a game that we enjoy and hope others do to. The money side of it is secondary… Read more »
I apologise noyjatat, as I clearly misunderstood your underlining meaning in the comment. This is something else I wish politicians, big company leaders etc would adopt, a little more humility and admitting, plainly, when they have made a mistake!
I am really happy the BoW team has tried their hardest to be reasonable and balanced about the topic of emotionally charged symbols in wargaming. However, I found some of the reactions here in the comments a bit distressing. Personally I am of the opinion that most wargamers I meet are generally very reflected people, some choose to add certain symbols because of historical authenticity, others don’t. My problem is never with the symbols per se if the people using them are mature and educated enough to put them into their proper context. But the wargaming community is just a… Read more »
“not every German was evil, but by fighting for the Nazis, by being complicit they became guilty of the crimes of Nazi Germany as a whole” Is it really as black and white as this. I grew up in Northern Ireland where sectarianism has had a huge impact on society and we have our fair share of flags and symbols. Ginger spice can wear a Union Jack flag and kids around the world think it’s just cool, however I knew kids (from across the divide) who had other thoughts on that. Another example of guilt, in war its the young… Read more »
Yeah I dont even disagree with you to a certain extent. But using the “Oh we all were so terribly manipulated”-card has been a favourite “get out of jail free” in Germany after WW2, which is why I am a bit sceptical of its implications. Of course its a factor not to be underestimated but taking historical responsibility is, even if not pretty and easy, the only way to move forward. I had the pleasure of living together with two Irish people during my uni years, one was Catholic from the South and extremely critical of the sectarian policies of… Read more »
I don’t totally agree with the “get out of jail free” idea here. Taking Germany between 1919-1945 as the prime example here, After WW1 the country was in the biggest depression Europe had seen, with starvation, high unemployment and gross inflation. Due, in no small part, to the League of Nations handing Germany huge reparation debts coupled with the treaty of Versailles. The fact that someone managed to come to power through promises of radical change and growth economically and militarily isn’t hard to believe. Heck, all Hitler had to do was simply ignore foreign debts and throw away the… Read more »
“Saddam Hussein can launch a WMD attack on the UK within 45mins”
We go to war (I even remember the excitement the first night of the invasion when Baghdad started being bombed – we were sorting out the enemy!)
Turns out the WMD’s and the 45mins claim were not true they were part of a dodgy dossier (the revealing of which led to an equally dodgy suicide of a man we should all thank)
Bottom line
I was manipulated once again into supporting something that was just utterly wrong.
The state manipulates 🙁
You can tell when a politician is lying their lips are moving.
Flags & symbols are not racist or haters. It’s the people who are racist & haters who wave around the flags & symbols that imprint on to the rest of the people, that these are the flags & symbols of racism & hatred. Some food for thought the swastika is the reverse symbol of the Finish good luck symbol.
The American Indians and Hindus use the symbol in a peaceful concept; as well. The Nazi regime coopted the symbol; they didn’t invent it.
Happy Sunday. Great show guys. Flags mean different things to different people. I think you shouldn’t change history, but if people use old flags to emulate outdated and unacceptable values and use them as a bullying device or weapon naturally you need to address that. In my opinion, seeing a confederate flag, on the box art of a confederate box of infantry is not being used to make any other statement than to sell the soldiers and identify the army involved. You mentioned people feeling uneasy about representing armies that committed atrocities? Having SS veteran troops in a Bolt Action… Read more »
It’s not only Nazis though. One of my historical heroes is The Earl of Montrose. I have a Pike & Shotte army that hasn’t made it to the bench yet. I see the against all odds, leadership and courage of the Royalist army, but have to weigh that against the atrocities committed at the sacking of Aberdeen after one of their victories. Our hobby makes us consider history, but ultimately we are not making a political statement by choosing to fight as Confederate, Nazi or Barbaric factions that had a dark and onerous past. We are just using the miniatures… Read more »
Happy Sunday peeps Wow talk about skewing the topic… I will say this the character design occurred before this stuff around the flag kicked up but the shoulder pads I originally was thinking of adding stars but decided against it in the light of the stuff going on. but that was a personal choice and when you see the final coloured design hopefully it will all look good. @warzan i will contact Ben and do an article on the design process. On the issue of the Confederate Battle Flag it was originally the Battle Flag of the Army of North… Read more »
I think this later reception of the flag is more where the issue lies. In many ways its use in the Civil War is an irrelevance. I’m not educated enough to speak on this particular instance, so I’ll only say that if an image becomes a symbol of hate, even for a small minority, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a society to decide it won’t tolerate that symbol.
Firstly CommodoreRob, nice work with the model! The US are going through one of those knee-jerk, PC reactions to a horrendous atrocity that happens now and then. Symbols are fundamentally abstract shapes. How some people actively work to attach emotional ‘tags’ to those symbols (we now call it branding) and how others, through their own (often limited) experience of and exposure to those symbols react emotionally to them becomes the issue. Sometimes groups leverage extreme views and ‘tags’ onto a symbol that can overwhelm in the consciousness the original ‘tags’. – you rightly refer to the St Georges Cross and… Read more »
Happy Sunday! It’s still Saturday night for me over here. My Sunday is just about to happen.
Green manoeuvre – draw a card (+1)
Amber – don’t draw (0)
Red – spend an extra card (-1)
Reflex cards also have values for combat, so you can spend the card to manoeuvre or spend it on combat, but not both.
Just some ideas.
Probably the easiest way of counting wounds in KOW is to leave space at the rear of a regiment to put a die in. A D24 would be perfect for really big units!
Hey Warzan, just rad the four page rules for AoS and I like the idea that you assign an effect to each piece of terrain. I remember you skipped the terrain generation but I thing making each piece do something ups the anti some what. AoS is very different but so far it looks playable to me very similar to Warmachine Hordes in feel… jury still out but no ‘linch-ings’ from me.
I like to play the “bad guys” in wargames so I don’t feel bad when I inevitably lose.
Please don’t play as Russians. Comrade Stalin will order your execution if you fail him.