Why don’t we already have the perfect wargame?

[limburger 21775xp 0]

It is always great to see people simply do something productive instead of complaining about how something sucks.
If anything I hope that we can keep this creative spirit alive within the OTT community.

@athelstane I’d argue that in the 60’s you had to because there weren’t any available.
Now you can … and the information you need is also a lot easier to track down.
It’s never going to be trivial as the niche you explore gets more niche, but it certainly has become easier.

It’s always a matter of time/skill available vs the magnitude of the ‘problems’ one has with an existing system.

Heck … in a way nothing has really changed.
All that has happened is that classic discussions about wargame design have become both more public and documented.

The ‘new’ flats are just a technical improvement on a classic idea. It may be more driven by the fact that the company responsible has managed to get a good designer on board, which made it possible for them to sell the idea to the ‘modern’ audience.

We also have 60+ years of (documented) experience where wargames have been used for fun as opposed to a more serious tool.
It’s how programming has changed from something experts did to something anyone can do …

[buggeroff 15230xp 1]

We do, it’s called SAGA!!!!!! 😉 😉

watching the XLBS

[sundancer 43074xp 1]

[horus500 11505xp 1]

@oriskany Do you think you can balance the stats mathematically? I wonder about the gap between value in theory and on the table top. I would say that, having played a fair few Ancients wargames, that Romans nearly always cause an issue because they punch above their weight consistantly. Having said that, I have no experience of Ancients. and in particular Romans. wargames with counters. Romans vs Romans is never an issue. Romans vs Celts (and most other nations) always seems to end one sided.

 

[athelstaneParticipant 699xp 1]

(I don’t know how to quote or link to the post of others, if anyone can briefly explain, I would be grateful)

Things from RPGs, board-games and the past that miniature game rules might benefit from:

Area movement – am I the only one that has reached an age where that mm or two of movement being important is of no interest?  Or measuring whether you are in the flank arc or not by a few degrees?  My current gaming idea is that if you do away with the need for precisely knowing where each unit is you can the concentrate on the visuals – I will form my units up into a nice column because it looks nice, rather than having any benefit vis-a-vis the rules.

Character progression – each battle is part of a bigger story.  Frostgrave does this wellish but like most such games it runs into the problem that after a while one Character/Warband/Retinue gets too powerful.  Best I have come up with is an ageing dimension to the game – Characters only live X games; try to get as much enjoyment in before the ‘Grim Reaper’ calls.  I’d love to somehow port the brilliant rules from Pendragon RPG for sons and grandsons into an easy to play wargame campaign system.  (Greg Stafford RIP and thank you for all the pleasure your games have given me.)

Random thought

And now a ‘blast from the past’.  I remember order pads for a Napoleonic game I played as a callow youth.  You and your opponent secretly wrote down the direction your unit was going to move and, IIRC, what it was going to do before each turn.  Basically, Star Wars X Wing style but on paper, rather than a dial.  I wonder what ‘mileage’ this mechanism has?

 

[blinky465 17028xp 0]

Resolving commands centrally and playing out the outcomes would be the ultimate in war gaming for me. It’s the mechanic I really liked in Laser Squad Nemesis (play-by-email on the PC). If there’s any way of replicating that on the tabletop, it’d be amazing!

[oriskany 60777xp 0]

@oriskany Do you think you can balance the stats mathematically? I wonder about the gap between value in theory and on the table top. I would say that, having played a fair few Ancients wargames, that Romans nearly always cause an issue because they punch above their weight consistantly. Having said that, I have no experience of Ancients. and in particular Romans. wargames with counters. Romans vs Romans is never an issue. Romans vs Celts (and most other nations) always seems to end one sided.

These stats will definitely have to be playtested to hell and gone to really come close to the unit’s real value.  This is just a starting point that adds some of the values, multplies other values, and adds a scale of translated values.  After shake-n-bake putting together dozens of games like this over the decades (and again, not everything here is strictly original, I’m not planning on taking this to kickstarter or anything), I’m hoping this gets me at least close.

Also, these unit costs will have to be simplified.  No way I’m running a 50-100 piece count game with cost vales like 39, 63, and 22 … 🙁

Pretty sure I know what the next steps will be, now it’s just a matter of waiting for the time to do it (still have about 10-12 days of Gulf War 30th Anniversary to get through).

[oriskany 60777xp 2]

@athelstane – I would hardly call Darkstar the “perfect” wargame (perfect for me and my friends, but too long and crunchy for too many people) … but it uses some of the elements you mention in your post.

It’s a hex-based game (a type of area movement) – which is vital given the newtonian physics movement rules, the ranges out to 5000 kilometers, gravity effects, very precise arcs.  No measuring required, it’s all based on the “area” grid, and there’s never a “four-up” or argument about whether something is in arc or in range.

Also, it has a “character progression” system.  You start off at a certain rank or level, with a certain size ship.  Actually, it’s a wargame so you start with several in your little battlegroup or task force.  As you fight battles (win or lose, but you progress faster if you win, obviously), you accrue campaign points which you can use to select items off a menu of upgrades,  You can invest in your career (certain ranks are required to command larger ships), you can upgrade to a new, bigger, better ship, improve the one you have until you’re flying in an “Enterprise” or “Millenium Falcon” of the Darkstar universe, etc.

 

Project link (basic rules)

Darkstar v1.1 Published

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