[unofficial weekender] Huh? Where is it?

[sundancer 42933xp 2]

To anybody who is wondering where the weekender is:

To quote @warzan from the YouTube comments on the xTool review:

The guys didn’t get a chance to film a weekender this week as we had both a themed week running and a big filming session for some cool upcoming hobby stuff 🙂 Just incase you are wondering why your stuck with my ugly mug!

So basically the team drowned in work. But there will be an XLBS tomorrow. From discord quoting @warzan again:

[21:07] Warzan: Hi ya yes there is an xlbs

Hth

####### back to the regular thread ######

### Start of shameless copy and paste ###

First time visitor to OTT? Then please introduce yourself in the New Member Thread and look around in the Project System. Then come back and read on…

https://www.beastsofwar.com/forums/topic/introduce-yourselves-new-member-thread/

https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/

Read all of this before you start as it will save you any trouble later.

First thing you must do is make your “pledge”. It can be anything gaming related, big or small, and you don’t even have to finish it. No, in here, happiness is the road. Have fun doing whatever it is, but it is not a race. Accompany your work with pictures or we might think you are do something sinister and just using us for cover.

You are also presented with a few questions. It is to get the conversation started. Try and keep your answers ‘conversational’, no text speak, and certainly no “basically”. This is how we all get to know each other better. While you are here feel free to tell us a story, show a picture, joke, tales of love or woe, or just add your own little bit. This is the whole point…in here it is just us.

If you have never taken part before we may bark and bite, but we also like a cuddle! It is all done in the best possible taste and it is character building. feel free to give as good as you get.

A few other things to note: NO RELIGION & NO POLITICS! Glasgow pub rules are in effect. If you need to make a better point then it is fine, but don’t take the piss. And always keep it civil.

Play plenty of music to go with your work. Loud and through proper speakers. Write us a playlist of things we might not have heard before.

Now, after all of that there is only one ‘real’ rule in here and it cannot be broken: NO DICKS! (Exceptions may be made for little fighting men with little plastic/resin/metal wieners)

And don’t forget the highlights of the weekend: The Weekender on Friday and XLBS on Sunday. And the little show that is the unofficial Hobby Hangout over at twitch.tv

### End of shameless copy and paste ###

Questions:

• Laser cutters – the new hobby tool?

And now back to the show.

[sundancer 42933xp 2]

Good morning everyone.

My pledge: prepare for Orktober and even the terrain building part!

Answers:

• No they are not.

And here is my long winded answer why I do not consider them hobby tools. Especially the one advertised on OTT yesterday.

Reason the first: Cost. Try to look at the xTool homepage and find the cheapest option for entry. It’s a nightmare. Especially since they don’t include basic safety features in their base price. It starts around 700€ and goes uphill fast.

Reason the second: Lasers are inherently more dangerous in a very direct way that a FDM or resin printer. Stray light from a strong laser is already dangerous to your eyes and skin and needs special equipment and safety measures. Hell, depending on your region you might even be restricted from buying certain levels of lasers if your not a professional. The higher the wattage the more dangerous!

Reason the third: Space. While you can get away with a rather smallish 3D printer (especially resin if you only what to print minis) a laser cutter and engraver always needs lots of space to make the most out of the material you’re cutting. So the basic footprint is huge!

So yeah, as much as I like the product from a laser cutter more then 3D printers, the device itself is even more “non hobby” in my book.

Now, let me get back to the xTool company and their weird pricing structures.

When I first clicked the link to their website I got bombarded with popups for “deal only lasts an hour”, “buy now to save money!!!” and all that shit you really don’t want pushed into your face.

From what I can tell from the horrible shop they have: if you buy the base model you only get the frame, electronics and the laser. That’s it. But what you really need at the very least is a honey comb mesh for cutting wood/mdf (you can get away without mesh when only engraving I guess). And what you really *REALLY* should have (IMHO) is an enclosure to trap fumes and stray light.

So I’m trying to come up with an order that is a “complete” kit. Here it goes, better sit down:

• D1 Pro 10W (1*xTool D1 Pro 10W Lasercutter, 1*1064 nm Laserhead) €1.158,00
• Enclosure €179,00
• xTool D1 Pro/D1 Air Assist Set €139,00
• xTool honey comb working plate D1/ D1 Pro €119,00
• xTool Professionale Laser safety glasses for 180nm-540nm wave length laser €32,99
• xTool D1 Pro Parts Kit €45,99

Technically I should add an air filter but I’m going to leave it at that. Have you done the maths yet? No? Let me help you: €1673,98

That’s not a hobby product in my book.

Do I sound a bit pissed? That’s because I am. Not because there is no Weekender that can happen. And it happened before and will happen again and it was always with good reason. (People being sick, big events etc). So why am I pissed? Because I feel that video is a paid for add. And in fact IT IS. Because if you look closely at the start of the video is say in the top left corner “contains paid for promotion” but that only pops up for a very short time at the first start. So if you blink, you miss it.

Look, I don’t want to be a negative nancy and I know OTT needs to make money but for the love of god stop treating sponsored deals as “a great hobby idea”. Be more open an honest about things. Just say it at the start of the article/video: “We/I have gotten this thing send to us to review. This is our/my honest thoughts on it and you’ll need to watch out for…”

The casual “oh and you need this and this and this to make it work” way is just rubbing me the wrong way. And yes, it’s about money. I hate it when I get the feeling people are trying to upsell me on things. I don’t want to know what a part of the deal costs I want to know TCO. Total Cost of Ownership.

A car is not just the car but car + fuel + maintenance + insurance.

A house is not just the house but fees when buying, insurance, energy costs, repairs, taxes.

And I think what drove me up the wall the most, what really put in the nail in that sponsored video: the background music. Yes, that’s a very much ‘me’ thing but come on! When has OTT every done videos with elevator music? It made it scream “THIS A PAID ADD” even more to me. At time it sounded like a show on QVC.

@warzan mate this is not against you personal but that video is bad. On a very basic business level bad. Maybe I am the only one with a very bad taste in my mouth with this but I feel sullied. I really do. I’ve thought about this since last night when the video dropped. And I was almost about to let it go but the more I thought about it the angrier I got. This isn’t BoW/OTT. That’s not what I come here for. And maybe someone else higher up at business daddy thought it was a good idea. I don’t know. But it feels wrong on multiple levels.

Well I said my part. If I am wrong please tell me CoGs. See you lot tomorrow at the XLBS.

[warzanKeymaster 31125xp 1]

Morning 🙂

Let me try to anser these points as best I can.

1) We wern’t paid for the video at all, they provided a basic machine and anything else i used i actually paid for out of my pocket (Or Andreas as is more often the case lol). The reason for the little paid promotion message is actually down to YouTube being a blunt instrument. We switched it on basically out of an abundance of caution because it is a bit different from the normal content we would work on 🙂

2) The danger factor needs a little more thought. For example, a laser can definately catch fire and so must never be left unnatended (i say all of this in the video btw) but this is where time comes into play. A laser will finish a basic cutting task in say about 45 mins to 1 hour, then its done an FDM printer will have to run for maybe 20 to 30 hours to potentially spit out something similar. So while the immediate risk is lower, it does sit unnatended for a very long time so chances of a thermal overrun being noticed are less. So its not so straight forward to compare them IMHO.

3) As regards the non hobby aspect, again it depends, I’m looking at it specifically from the perspective of a person in the hobby. Ive already seen thousands of products made with these things so I have a basic idea of the materials used. I have experience of resins and 3d printers etc so I know that materials need to be picked carefully for safety reasons. And with lasers its all about selecting safe materials of which there are a few perfectly safe materials (Plywood, MDF, Acrylic) that will do 99% of anything we want to do. And then there is ease of creation. Modeling in 3D is hard, like really hard – I can do a few basic things in tinkercad but after that I havent got the skills to go much further. On the other had working in two dimensions is a lot easier and there are like a bazillion things you can cut quickly with a laser. I am revisiting saga for my crusades at the moment so have been running off some custom fatigue tokens and measuring sticks. Little bridges, walk ways for the ewok table im looking at etc. I’ve been actually really surprised with the amount of options it opens up – heck I even was able to quickly run out some feet risers for a couple of bits of furniture for andrea lol.

3) Cost – Always a tricky thing – so the K40’s (the ones with the glass Co2 tube that need water cooled etc) are around the £400 mark. They come with no ‘brand’ and no customer service or real backup they are pretty much all grey imports. The XTools can be found on promotion regularily for £400 – £500. And IMHO opinion are a far far better machine than the K40. You would buy one of these because you want to work on larger things, so if space is an issue then lasers are not the way to go for wargamers as you dont get the benefits.

You could buy all the extras, but as you see in the video I specifically didn’t, and instead started experimenting with what I had available to me – and airbrush compressor for the air assist and a vachume cleander for fume and smoke extraction, I bought the lowest cost mesh bed I could find and a silicone mat to protect the work surface. So yup if you want all the other official items, fill your boots, but as a wargamer I seemed to have access to stuff I could repurpose – and I showed that in the video 🙂

4) The edit and the music – ok thats on me, because what you watched was 100% created by me in Davinci Resolve – normally we just record and then it runs through the editing process just using all the standard stuff we do. I wanted to take the opportunity while everyone else was so flat out to try resolve for a more complicated project, and the music background was really just inspired by videos tht I have watched over the last couple of years – DIY and Gardening stuff mostly lol. So its just an experiment in editing and presentation really when I had the chance to ‘break the mould’ a bit 🙂

So there you have it 🙂 – happy to answer any questions anyone might have about the machine, and I hope to try a few more ideas out on it from a warganing perspective over the next while 🙂

[sundancer 42933xp 2]

First of all thanks for the reply @warzan. Let me get in on your points.

1. “We wern’t paid for the video at all, they provided a basic machine” this might be a regional thing. Under German media law you *must* state clearly and unmissable if you are paid and/or received the item for free. And high value items like a laser cutter that’s over 1k€ even gets counted towards taxes as some kind of income/revenue. So from my German view: you’re getting paid. In goods but you’re getting paid. So lets files this under “cultural/border differences”
2. Technically you are right. But still: when you’re getting that laser in your eyes it’s pretty much done. And in most cases irreversibly. I’d let my wife take it from here as an optician but she’s away for the day and doesn’t really care for the hobby in the wider sense so… let’s settle for: These things are dangerous in a much more direkt way than a FDM or resin printer.
3. Ok, let me rephrase my “non hobby” wording. It’s not for the casual hobbyist. It’s for professionals, semi-pros and hobbyist with more than enough “disposable income”. It’s for people who produce stuff. Not the one off projects.
4. (your second 3) of course you could be cheaper. But even at 400€ you still need all the extras. TCO of laser printers is way higher than most other hobby products.
5. (your 4) yeah, you broke the mould for sure and some people seem to like it when I’m looking at comments on OTT and YT. But it’s not my cup of coffee. Good on you for doing what you can but please do not be disappointed if I do not enyjoy it.

Addendum: I have seen the video and I know you’ve talked about a lot of things regarding extra parts and cheaper alternatives but most people won’t know those things in the first place and just see “cool laser thingy, let’s get one” and then wonder why they need to shell out 50% of the device again in additional stuff needed for working with it. So either they suck it up or are left with a device that’s only partial usable. But that part is mostly on the manufactures with shops that “hide” those extra costs.

Again, thanks for the reply. 🙂

[warzanKeymaster 31125xp 0]

1) And thats why I had the chaps switch on the paid promotion setting so we covered those bases 🙂 – If I were just a single person running a channel I would agree with you, but getting paid when you are a business means money to pay wages, getting a box of toy soldiers or even a laser cutter does not pay wages 🙂

2) If we are going to stretch to people shooting themselves in the eye with the high powered laser then I have no recourse to be able to compare its safety vs danger, they are different things entirely with different risk profiles. I mention most of the safety issues in the video as I want to make people aware to use it sensibly. Drinking a bottle of resin would also have consequences.

3 & 4) I disagree – I think the cost is pretty subjective, its in the ball park of the larger FDM and Resin machines, it costs about the same as say 15 MDF terrain buildings. If someone really enjoys that aspect of the hobby they may well decide its good value to jump in at that price range. If you don’t thats ok but it doesnt make them wrong or even exceptional. A £400 machine is a lot of money – I know I would think twice before spending it, but – there are not a lot of other alternatives that can do what it can do for that money. You go down the route of airbrushing and youd spend that on an iwata setup, go down the route of 3d printing and you’d spend that on a good Elegoo resin printer, go down the route of Star Wars or Warhammer, and you’d spend that within 15mins of joining the hobby lol

5. Im offended you didn’t like my cheesy ass music or editing skills! Consider yourself scolded, for not letting me pretend to be a knock off DIY and Gardening youtuber 😉 lol

6. I talk about the alternatives specifically so people who dont know about them can see there are alternatives. I cant just magically put that knowledge into their brains before they watch the video.

It seems to me a bit like I did the very things you wanted, but you wish folk didn’t have to watch the video to get the info – there really is not a lot I can do about that 🙂

[sundancer 42933xp 0]

It seems to me a bit like I did the very things you wanted, but you wish folk didn’t have to watch the video to get the info – there really is not a lot I can do about that

I think you’re not completely wrong there but I already said how bad the shop of xTool is in my book. And most others as well. When buying things you shouldn’t need to read articles, watch any amount of videos but have a big red ! on the shop stating “you will also need to buy these things in order to make your apparatus work they WE SHOW IN THE AD”. That’s the main point. “It can do all these things *” *”when you buy the base model and this and that and the other part as well plus these little things”.

Or maybe it’s just Weekender-Withdrawel-Syndrom.

[warzanKeymaster 31125xp 0]

Which add on do you feel is compulsory?

 

Enclosure – not compulsory and I didnt use one, you can just use it in a well ventilated area same as if you are using spray primers.

 

Air assist – not compulsory as it will cut perfectly well without it, it just reduces the dark coloured residue but in many kits that residue is actually the shading.

 

Mesh bed – not compulsory you can put any scrap wood underneath the work piece to protect your work surface.

 

Glasses – it actually comes with them in the base unit and the laser has a shield around it on the module.

 

Software – its free and pretty good IMHO

 

Most products of this ilk come with optional extras, in fact your car industry is probably the champion of such practices lol 🙂

 

Anyway my point is you can buy just the basic machine and make it work. And as a hobbiest you are well placed to upgrade it with hacks and stuff you may already own 🙂

 

We don’t have to stick to the official stuff, and again that was a really big part of my message in the video 🙂

Remember this thread started with you calling out my openess and honesty, saying you were angry about the video and felt sullied. All I can do is explain the methodology I followed, but obviously there’s not a lot I can do if you don’t like some other companies website. But I’m not sure I should be on the receiving end of that criticism 🙂

 

[sundancer 42933xp 0]

Glasses – it actually comes with them in the base unit and the laser has a shield around it on the module.

If the glasses come with the kit they don’t state that on the shop page. If you go to the shop and select the D1 10W it only comes with laser and frame. At least from what is clearly visible. Which brings me back to my big red ! that should be on shops pages. Maybe a red ! for mandatory stuff and a yellow one for “technically not needed but when you print in your flat you might want this to keep the BBQ aroma to a minimum inside”. Remember: not everybody has the opportunity for an external shed, basement or garage. Some people are ‘forced’ to do hobby in the living room or kitchen. And at that point an enclosure and fume extractor is a must. (Unless you live by yourself and don’t care)

[warzanKeymaster 31125xp 0]

I’m not sure what point you are actually trying to make now mate.

I show the glasses in the video and I refer to them in the video.

Not every tool or product is for everyone. So if making a video about one thats not going to suit everyone is going to have you wonder about my openess and honesty and is going to make you angry I’m completely at a loss of where to go from here!

I literally tried to cover every base you mentioned in the video already and then gave extra detail here where I can and now the problem is people in flats.

Whats a guy gotta do to show somthing to folk and explore its possibilities?

 

[sundancer 42933xp 0]

Regarding the glasses: yes you show them and IIRC you’ve got sent that unit. So it might just be a lack of product description on xTools own website (which is bad business practice in any cases)and the kit comes with glasses OR they included it as it’s mandatory for safety reasons in your personal promotional box but the customer needs to buy it extra. Which then is not cool. Any way I look at it xTools has flocked up something. Pick either one.

And what just came to mind: the “not compulsory” items. Why did you get them if they are not needed? Because it makes the product better and more useable. Anybody who doesn’t buy them will have a lesser/worse experience. So in a way they are “mandatory” for maximum enjoyment.

Again, just to point this out: I’m not attacking you Warren. Nor your attempt in showing new shiny stuff and what it could do.  I’m not saying “don’t show love for your hobby experience”. Far from it! And if I did come across like that I am sorry.

What drives me up the wall is: I’m feeling like someone is trying to stick their fingers into my wallet and help themselves to some more money after the fact I just bought an expensive piece of equipment and for that I blame xTool not you Warren. All those businesses that hide extra costs with an asterisk or a footnote. Because it hurts those who need to watch spending the most. But that’s derailing the conversation I think.

I think I might be better of offline for the day. Something is off and it might just be me. It might not be but “too much internet” has never been good. Take care of yourself. I’ll hopp back in later. Unless my urge to comment, ding the dong or just be annoying gets the better part of me. 🙂

[warzanKeymaster 31125xp 1]

No worries mate, I’m just trying to do a good job 🙂

[orinoco 5362xp 0]

How much is the shark add on?  Surely lasers were designed to be attached to sharks? ?

Looking forward to the XLBS.  At least with no Weekender this week my wallet is safe from the Indie of the week.

My pledge this week is not to mention the 3 Rs on any internet chat or forum (round bases, rigging and random movement).

[sundancer 42933xp 0]

’tis Monday morning. First coffee has been inhaled. Hope you lot had a relaxing Weekend.

[danlee 22437xp 0]

This weeks pledge: yet another Raging Heroes model.

 

• Laser cutters – the new hobby tool? For someone who does a lot of terrain I’d say they’re both about as useful as each other. If you don’t do as much terrain I think the 3D printer comes out on top.

 

Just finished another fun model. I enjoyed going for another unusual colour scheme for the model. https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1794968/

 

[sundancer 42933xp 0]

Nice paint job but I think those jaws are bad for eating XD

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