There is no place for (armoured) vehicles and fliers in a 28mm skirmish game?

[warcoloursParticipant 438xp 0]

 I am a big proponent of give me options to play the game I want to play, not be pigeonholed into a game the designers think I should play.

When it comes down to history, this is the difference between a game and a wargame. Each will have its fans and it’s ok, but they are different things. If you are looking for a wargame you don’t want a game and viceversa.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 2]

@warcolours I think that’s personal opinion as opposed to a fact.  What you are referring to as a “wargame” is probably better described as a “recreation” or a “reenactment”.  Wargames is, to me, a catch all term for all kinds of games played on the table top that either simulate or abstract a battle, whether fictional, factual or anything in between.

I would also say that even if you wanted to refight a historical battle, you still need a game, otherwise what are you really doing other than pushing miniatures around and following a script?  That’s not a game or a wargame.  You might not need it to be well balanced like you would for a tournament game but you still need a game

[jamescutts 6918xp 0]

Getting back on the initial topic as i think this has deviated a bit, I think the answer is there is a place for (armoured) vehicles in 28mm skirmish games, however that doesn’t mean there’s a necessity for them.

In exactly what cases this applies I think is down to ruleset, the time period,  and us as players interpretation of them from a gameplay, historical and narative perspective.

Flyers on the other hand…

[warcoloursParticipant 438xp 0]

@onlyonepinman of course we are discussing personal opinions. Still I do not think that “recreation” or “reenactment” are accurate terms, since they would imply that your attempt is to recreate or reenact exactly what has happened while this is not the purpose of a wargame, but rather to put you in a situation similar to the one someone has historically been in and to start from there. So you have the weapons, the troops and the tactics of the time and play an historical (or fictional) encounter confronted with the same or similar choices that historically belonged to that period. This is not what happen in Bolt Action, as I said, because the use of a certain kind of models is nearly accidental and you could use models from a completely different period and the game would not change at all. A Roman Tribune, a Renaissance Condottiere, a Napoleonic General and a WWII Field Marshall had completely different situations in front of them: different challenges and different choices to make to overcome them. Modelling this you have a wargame. Bolt Action is nothing of this sort, this is why I define it a game.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 2]

Refight. Replay. Reenact. Whatever, they’re all variations on a theme.  They’re still not differentiated from fictional games by the term “wargame”. A wargame is literally just a game about war

@jamescutts There’s definitely space for armoured vehicles in 28mm games. It’s more a question of how many than a binary yes or no and I don’t think “necessity” is a factor either – it’s a game so there isn’t really a necessity for anything beyond that which you want to use.  Aircraft are more problematic, especially in historical games in WWII where things like helicopters are not really an option.  But I don’t see any reason why, in a 28mm game, you couldn’t have some kind of airborne attack vehicle (equivalent of an apache).  The setting will generally define what is possible in that regard

[jamescutts 6918xp 0]

100% agree @onlyonepinman, the question is more about quantity.

Aircraft as you say are interesting, i think most airsupport aircraft at 28mm scale realistically want to be offtable, but hay if you want to place a mini flying around just because it looks cool and as a representation of that air support why not.

Helicopters are intersting, at 28mm they can be big beasties, unless your going M.A.S.H. so i feel they more natuallly fall into a more narative approach, Black Hawk down style or as support options, in which case a Apache’s engaugement range is realistically going to be off table but as all games/wargames are abstractions theres not much harm if your going to include it having it on table.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 0]

So, rule of cool (in my opinion) trumps everything.  If you want to use a Spitfire model or a Bf109 then do it.  I don’t think they’re mechanically suited to 28mm land based games due to their speed but I certainly wouldn’t tell anyone else how to have their fun.  Personally I think that they are better represented by game effects that don’t need miniatures.

But any kind of VTOL aircraft, either as attack aircraft or even as troop transports are absolutely fine.  They’re not massively different to their ground based counterparts really.  They’re probably less armoured but have more freedom of movement but otherwise fulfil very similar purposes

[warcoloursParticipant 438xp 1]

@onlyonepinman Different words have different meanings, they are not simply variations on a theme as I have tried to explain more in detail in at least two posts which you have chosen to ignore altogether; this is fine, it just means that you are not interested in the issues underlined there but you just want a game where you can use cool toys and fight your friends. Once again, it is fine, it just does not invalidate my point.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 1]

They’re all variations on the theme of a wargame, same as hypothetical and fictional games.  A game based on a real historical battle is, for all intents and purposes, a scenario.  You could play that scenario using any rules you want and, as long as the outcome of the endeavour is not predetermined then it is a game just as if you were playing a balanced/tournament game using bolt action or 40k.  The term “wargames” refers to a subset of “games” that are specifically about war. There is no inference that it must somehow be based on a real battle save that which you draw yourself.  In fact, given that wargames are actually used for military training and planning using hypothetical situations, fictional and hypothetical situations are an intrinsic part of the overall concept of wargaming.

Sometimes you might wanna refight the battle of Waterloo.  Sometimes you might wanna just make it Sharpe’s Waterloo. instead.

[warcoloursParticipant 438xp 0]

Is running a race on foot the same as running with a car or a bike? What about a sailboat? Or swimming? Are they just variations of a “race”, therefore freely interchangeable or are they completely different experiences?

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 1]

Yes, they are variations on a race and thus can all be called races.

 

Races.        (refers to any) Wargames

Boat race.                      Bolt Action

Running Race.              Black Sails

Car Race.                        40k

– F1                                    kill team

– WRC.                               Necromunda

– NasCar.                           Apocalypse

Bike Race.                       Hail Caesar

 

The thing you are calling a “wargame” is a scenario.

There is a place in 28mm wargames for armoured vehicles.  There is not a place on every scenario for them.

[warcoloursParticipant 438xp 0]

So basically, for you, the experiences are just interchangeable. Which your choice of games indicates pretty well. I see that there is no way to understand each other, since you miss the experience on which my point is based. Under this conditions there is no way to get the message across.

[scribbs 14508xp 1]

I think the distinction is between ‘simulation’ vs ‘game’, with the former trying for more realism than the latter. Different wargames sit at different points along that spectrum. Do armoured vehicles belong in a skirmish game? My thought is what kind of game are you trying to play?

If you want simulation, probably not unless you’ve got a very specific scenario in mind. If you want a ‘game’, then why not?

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 0]

@warcolours you are making quite a lot of assumptions – I don’t play any of the games on the list, I just used them purely as examples.

All experiences are entirely unique and none are interchangeable.  Each game and indeed each single session of a game is a unique experience in and of itself.  It may have similarities to other games due to using the same rules from one game to the next but no two sessions are ever the same.  Icould play 10 games of 40k and they would each be a unique experience.  Or I could play 10 games using 10 different sets of rules and they would be equally unique.

I understand what you’re saying, I just think that what you are referring to as a “wargame” is actually a scenario and that you could play that scenario with any rules appropriate to the era in which the scenario is set.

[warcoloursParticipant 438xp 0]

If you want simulation, probably not unless you’ve got a very specific scenario in mind. If you want a ‘game’, then why not?

my point

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