Soloman Kane KS about to arrive, and I couldn't care less!

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 0]

We absolutely love the Conan game in our house, it’s been a real hit since we got it.

I am looking forward to Mythic Battles Ragnarok, However if you’re not enthusiastic about something that would seem to be the justification you need to not back it.

The question I think I would really ask about things is why you were enthusiastic about something like Solomon Kane when they ran the kickstarter but you no longer want to play it now? I really don’t understand that mindset.  I can understand disappointment that something isn’t as good as you hoped it would be when you finally get to try it, but to simply not want to even give it a try, that just totally confuses me

[limburger 21704xp 0]

@onlyonepinman what was it about devils’ run that you didn’t like ?
The component quality or the rules ? Must admit that I wasn’t exactly “blown away” when my copy arrived.

I’d say “Agents of Mayhem” was kind of my ‘worst’ kickstarter, because the miniatures weren’t exactly of the quality I had become used to (thanks to CMON … ) and I wasn’t quite sure if the game itself would still be fun.

Corespace is a weird one. The minis really screamed ‘low end boardgame’, but the setting and gameplay still make me want to play it one day.

With ‘HATE’ it was more the reality that the game needed an opponent to play … but the art and the idea still make me want to open it up one day and play it.

My initial excuse for not playing ‘the walking dead’ was not having (enough) terrain … so the enthusiasm fizzled and I backed a few terrain focused kickstarters to ‘solve’ that problem. And then I forgot why I was until this thread made me re-think my reasons for backing.

I do have to say that I tend to back kickstarters not because I ‘need’ the game, but because I want to see something make it to retail and it beat letting my money rot on a savings account with zero interest (and a government taxing me for daring to have money). Receiving the final product was  a kind of a ‘nice to have’ bonus.

I’ve backed several of the Zombicide kickstarters because I thought the minis would be useful as generic monsters in a rpg.

The Conan RPG was a mix between highs (it is Conan … ) and lows (some of the sourcebooks felt like a waste of material despite the art).

The Instant Colours kickstarter has been another kickstarter that made me spend more in order to use it.
Part of the reason were the rather dissappointing reviews and my own experience with trying to use a brush for their primer, which they had shown as an option. It kind of ‘forced’ me to buy an airbrush, although truth be told I would have bought one anyway … I know this has the danger of the ‘sunk cost fallacy’ as I may be spending money in order to prove it as a good investment, but then … knowing is half the battle. 😀

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 1]

@limburger ultimately Devil’s run just wasn’t what I wanted. I think it was the smaller scale, I realized that I wouldn’t play it that often but didn’t have any other use for the contents. So I gave it to an acquaintance who was big into the old Dark Future game which was compatible in scale

Generally speaking I back kickstarters with miniatures if I think I can get multiple uses out of the miniatures, sort of like a backup plan. If the game is good, then fantastic if not, well I still managed to get a great selection of miniatures I can use in RPGs. However for the most part the games that I have backed I have enjoyed.

Also, for the record, I really like the Core Space miniatures, I don’t think they’re low end at all; I would probably say mid range

[horus500 11505xp 0]

@onlyonepinman I think the enthusiasm died with the wait. The excitemnt wore off. Had the product been on time I probably would have been excited. Had it been 1 year late I would have played it with the hope it would grow on me. 2 years+ late and the disappointment has coloured my view before I get it to the point that I don’t care if I don’t ever play it. The fact that it’s coming in 2 waves just makes that even worse.

Regarding Conan, I feel like role playing in the Conan universe gives a much richer experience. The game has the setting perfect, I just didn’t quite get the ‘feel’ that I was Conan. If the Conan game was like Warcry or some other fantasy skirmish game I’d be happier with it and I could probably play those scenarios just as easily. By that I mean the mechanics of the game don’t necessarily make it ‘feel’ any more ‘Conan’ to me than other rulesets with the same minatures would.

To me the game doesn’t quite seem to know if it’s a skirmish wargame or a miniature boardgame. If I’m Conan than I want the freedom to do Conan stuff. Start a tavern brawl, take over a mercenary company, lead an army, romance/shag a princess/shieldmaiden. I get exactly what @limburger is saying. Some source books for a fantasy earth (whether it’s Conan. Old World, etc) are a waste but the advantage is that I don’t have to buy them.

And to Limburger’s point about Hate, sadly my issues are similar. I’d love a solo play mechanism. The art and story is amazing. Not that fussed on the grid system but it does make movement easy.

I regret not backing Walking Dead if only because everyone that plays it have said the game is excellent. There was a Walking Dead miniatures game based on the show with great minis (better than Mantics, not than Mantic’s were bad at all), I can only assume the rules weren’t good enough to compete with Mantic’s version.

[meanboneParticipant 837xp 0]

I love everything Conan and the Monolith game was my first KS. Blood Rage was the first I received though. Since then I’ve done about 10 and most have been great (CMON and Monolith still the best despite some delays).

Despite my love of Conan, I didn’t get the Modiphius KS because I’m not really an RPG player. I did pick up most of the PDFs for it though when Humble Bundle had a bunch of them for $15. Like I said, I love Conan, so that’s worth it for the art and reading alone.

Speaking of Modiphius, I would never do a KS from them. I’m finally about to receive Siege of the Citadel (allegedly) which is 4 years late. I loved the 90s original with the semi coop gameplay and rotating overlord campaigns. But four years late is a joke.

So basically there’s pros and cons with KS, but if you do it, I’d stick with companies that have a solid track record of delivering quality within a reasonable time (more than a year late is an insult).

[noyjatatParticipant 16155xp 0]

I see a lot of people saying they no longer back KS due to delays and such. I am quite lucky to have fallen into the printing side of the hobby and now regularly do KS to get files for scenery. One of my favourites is WOWbuildings who does whole sets of themed terrain using the KS platform which you receive pretty much straight after the KS ends and which gets updated if someone finds any problem during printing on their host page so you can download the file again for free. In comparison to his site there are considerable savings to be had for purchase during a KS to post a KS. Thought I would bring one of the good examples of some KS that are out there as this saves me hundreds of pounds in cost for the scenery I want.

[tankkommanderParticipant 6421xp 1]

Don’t worry, we have another average game with great miniatures coming from Mythic that will get hyped up whilst never mentioning the previous KS issues from the same company.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 1]

@horus500 I get that you’re saying the enthusiasm died with the wait but to me that problem lies more with you than with Mythic. Let’s switch the scenario up a little. Instead of doing a kickstarter, let’s say that 2 and a half years ago, Mythic made an announcement that they were developing a Solomon Kane game, just in a magazine or via sites like BoW but then said nothing about it. Then, two years and a half years later (i.e. Now) they make another announcement saying it will be released within the next few weeks and pre-orders are being taken. Would you still be excited for it?

I think what I am trying to understand is what exactly drives people’s excitement?  It feels like people are excited more by the announcement of a game than the game itself or that excitement about something is linked to the specific point in time at which they made a transaction in order to obtain something.  For me, if I am interested in and excited about a game, then that game is worth waiting for, regardless of when it is first announced or when I actually pay money.  For example If someone announced a Mass Effect miniatures game today I would be mega excited about that (and I very much doubt this will happen). If someone said it was being Kickstarted I would move heaven and earth to get on board. If it then took 2 years or 5 years to deliver I would still be excited when it arrived despite any frustrations I might be otherwise feeling with the developers of the game. The reason being that I love the setting and would love some mass effect miniatures. If a game doesn’t generate that sort of interest in me, I simply don’t back it because if I do, I know that by the time it arrives I won’t be interested any more.

[limburger 21704xp 1]

To me the delays are a part of the kickstarter experience.
Yes … there are projects that manage to deliver on time, but you’ll find that those projects were very focussed and prepared before the kickstarter launched. For boardgames that effectively means that the entire game is ready and just needs components to be made.

I like seeing how the sausage gets made, so I don’t mind it when things don’t go as planned and changes happen. If that kind of thing dulls your enthusiasm then it might simply be that you’re not ready to face the realities of a production process.

I’m kind of used to (videogame) companies announcing shiny new trailers for games that either never get made or get delayed. As such I kind of ignore the hype until the thing is available … and judge if it is worth getting excited for at that time.

@meanbone I think ‘Siege of the Citadel’ was one of the very first projects that Monolith did. To be honest I wasn’t expecting them to deliver the product at all after. I don’t know when it will arrive, but it will be interesting to see. I don’t remember the game, but all I know is that it was a very weird setting so I was in it for the art and weirdness.

[flatbattery 8265xp 1]

No two people are the same, some can wait, some can’t. Some people can stay excited, some have their excitement exhausted. So right or wrong is determined by your own perspective.

The only way I can explain the change of heart from launch until now, is that waiting nearly 3 years instead of 1, not including the obligatory given 6 month delay creates a negative perception. It doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t get played, it just means you’re not in any rush to get it to the table.

[horus500 11505xp 0]

I guess part of this is the ‘instant gratification’ versus FOMO. GW and companies go for instant gratification. Want a 40K starter set? Anywhere in the world within days at most, anytime for the last 30 years.

KS games, particularly ones like Conan, Mythic Battles, etc that were never envisioned going to retail as a continous product certainly fed off the FOMO idea. They countered the wait times with the promise of a game with boxes of high detail plastic and so many extras they’d never need to do more. But you only had this one chance to get it. In a world of 24/7 convience and the ever increasing previlence of 3D printing, why should I wait for years for a product I paid for today?

The other factor is that to be honest, with exception of Blood Rage and Scythe there have been very few great games I’ve bought through KS. Theres been a few good ones, but most have lured me in with the miniatures that were, lets be honest ‘Gw-good but cheap as Reaper Bones’. GW games were,for the most part, crap. They remain convienient ways to hook you on models for their 2 main IPs but if the miniatures are the biggest hook and the quality of the rules isn’t at least great, why am I waiting?

Before Kill Team, Warcry, Blackstone Fortress and Underworlds I was prepared to say all their games were crap. But they are getting better. Now I hear that Adeptus Titanicus and Blood Bowl are good and Battles in Middle Earth has returned. Maybe GW has upped it’s game in the rules department?  I think it may be partially, (but certainly not the only reason) why KS is in decline and GW is anain on the rise.

I think most gamers want great games over great miniatures, but if they cant get them theyll take average rules and good miniatures today, over rules of unknown quality and great miniatures they wont hold for years.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 1]

I would probably say that “instant gratification” is generally a concept I support, I think it drives some fairly negative behaviours. That’s not to say that I support massive delays on kickstarter because just turning a blind eye to it also drives some bad behaviours. However on a personal level, living in a world of instant gratification generally drives feelings of entitlement, a sense that everything should be available whenever we want it and I don’t really agree with that principle at all.

I would agree that FOMO is also a reason why people get sucked into a kickstarter purchase, however again that’s not entirely the fault of the kickstarter nor is it limited to kickstarter – GW lean heavily on FOMO. It’s on us to understand what we’re spending our money on and why.  Am I dropping money on this kickstarter because I really want the game or am I dropping money on it because I am worried that I might want but this is my only opportunity to buy? As the ancient Greeks said, “Know Thyself”.

I don’t dispute disappointment with a product that you have waited a long time for – that I can understand. But that’s not the same as just not being excited to even accept delivery of a product without even having opened the box or played the game. I think it’s the latter that we are really talking about though, the fact that you are no longer bothered about receiving Solomon Kane

[limburger 21704xp 1]

@horus500 if you want ‘instant gratification’ then Kickstarter/crowdfunding and pre-order isn’t where you should go 😉

Most people say they want great games over great miniatures, but the market says that people are perfectly happy buying average miniatures when the hype/advertising budget is high enough …

Sometimes it is because they don’t know any better, because the other companies just don’t have the marketing budget to make themselves know outside of their respective niche.
And sometimes they genuinely like the stuff that you may look down upon because your personal taste has changed (through experience).

I kind of wish people (and the companies) would stop treating crowdfunding as a pre-order/marketing campaign, but I know that’s not going to happen because the system works (until it doesn’t).

The (board/table top) game market is too small and often too niche to justify regular funding and production so it is good to see that this is a viable solution for companies that don’t have the advantage of an existing product that could help fund further development of ideas they might have.

All we need to be mindful of is to be aware of why we invested into a crowdfunded project to begin with.
IF you have a clear reason that goes beyond a temporary love for the hype generated then you will find that you will have more enthusiasm left once the product does arrive and delays won’t affect your expectations as much.

That doesn’t mean that you won’t be dissapointed if a superior product is in your hands before your kickstarter arrives, but it might lessen the impact.

[pagan8thParticipant 10863xp 1]

One of my gripes with ks games is that often the rules are crap, badly translated to english, or both.

Often seems like the first release of game on ks is ‘beta testing’ with people paying a lot of money for the privilge. Mythic Battles: Pantheon, Endure the Stars, Z War One are three that I backed and later were released as 1.5 edition rules.

Cmon do it with Rum & Bones too. I’m sure there are many more.

I don’t mind an errata, that’s to be expected, but a 1.5 edition is a bit much, especially when you have buy the revised game (or an upgrade pack) to fix the problems that shoddy game design and poor rules editing created.

After an initial bout of madness where I backed a lot of stuff… I stopped. Didn’t back anything for about 3 years. Currently I’m waiting for a delivery by Blacklist Games (just miniatures) and backing two projects… The One Ring 2nd Edition and 7TV Lurker of the Deep.

I have all the One Ring 1st edition stuff and trust Sophisticated Games to do a good job based on that

And 7TV Lurker is an expansion for 7TV Pulp which I already have… and it’s miniatures agnostic so I can use what I want (but Crooked Dice do some great minis and I have a number of them).

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 1]

@pagan8th they’re totally valid reasons for not liking kickstarter however that applies equally to any other game, the only difference is that if you don’t preorder something that you can wait until there’s some reviews available. That still doesn’t entirely protect you from it but you can still end up buying a game with badly written rules at retail.

But I thought that the original post was really about not feeling excited about a kickstarter due to it taking so long to be delivered, which to me indicates that initial decision to make a kickstarter pledge was not fully considered and whilst I think there are definitely some general criticisms that can be made of kickstarter, I really don’t think they can be blamed for loss of enthusiasm or excitement.

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