Show us zee papers.. Passports of your not coming in ever….

[wurzzelParticipant 2734xp 2]

@warhammergrimace it’s not just that although that’s a big part of it, it’s also that in the last 3-5 years there has been an increase in the belief that you can’t contradict or belittle a person’s opinion and all peoples beliefs are equally valid, which is inherently wrong.

[warhammergrimace 13766xp 9]

People believe their opinion is valid even when it’s based on utter nonsense. The belief that opinion can’t be challenged or contradicted is the problem. Even when presented with facts they’ll say their opinion is more valuable.

If you needed your house fixing you wouldn’t ask Tim who works in the pet shop to do the work. Yet people are happy to believe Gary on YouTube who failed his high school science over a scientist with 20 plus. years in his/her field simply because it doesn’t fit with the narrative they believe.

It drives me mental seeing the nonsense some idiots spout online.

 

[khusrauParticipant 1169xp 1]

Ahhh.. you’ve been on another forum that must not be named. I’m happy to respect everyone’s right to their own beliefs, God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Great Cthulhu.  It’s when policy and law is based on belief rather than science or fact that I have an issue.

And it scares me we’re one step away from governments banning flights to Australia because it doesn’t exist. Or perhaps more accurately,  I’m scared that enough people won’t care, or are happy to go along with that belief.

[skiptotheend 4525xp 3]

If you were to travel to a country with a visa, you tend to have to jump through some hoops in regards to vaccinations. I see the covid passport (albeit on a granular scale) as pretty much the same thing.

I also don’t see much of a problem about potentially wearing masks, for example Japan and Korea had fairly widespread mask wearing even pre-covid. If it means in the likelihood that I have it and didn’t know I had it, atleast I have taken pre-precautions to not pass it on as easily as potentially it could have been without a mask

[pagan8thParticipant 10863xp 3]

Your comment made me smile @warhammergrimace, because ‘tool’ in english slang has another meaning…

and in that context…‘Social media at times is a great tool…’

Social media allow stupid people to voice an opinion that other people believe even when factually wrong. Some things are not opinions, they are fact, but the likes of twitter allows people to spout gibberish.

 

[elessar2590 18207xp 1]

Vaccine passports are ridiculous and also not with the current scientific understanding of Covid. If someone had Covid and recovered from it then they’re basically in a better position than someone who has had the vaccines yet there are people who don’t even know they had Covid. So do we waste vaccines on those people who don’t need it? What about someone like me in Australia who isn’t allowed to get vaccinated because the vaccine we have is more dangerous to young people than the virus? Should all young people be treated like second class citizens because they’re stepping back and letting those who need it get a vaccine.

[osbad 4279xp 3]

There is a civil rights issue here.  I understand the justifications for masks, vaccine passports etc., and that in most cases the balance of “the Science” may indicate they have health benefits in a pandemic.  But we are putting an awful lot of trust in government and “the experts” in permitting them to take away our right of free assembly.  Those rights were gained and maintained at the cost of thousands, indeed often millions of human lives, and should not be given up lightly.  It is very easy for authoritarian elements to come up with “just one more reason” to extend the life of restrictions and manipulate what appears to be the sentiments of the majority.  So many dictators were voted in to power.  Very few are ever voted out of power.

In the midst of so much panic and misinformation, it is SO important not to lose our sense of perspective and in our fear of death begin to be afraid of living.  What is life without risk?  Is a virus with a microscopic chance of killing you really worth the loss of all of our freedoms? And seriously, your chances of actually dieing from this disease, unless you have some co-morbidity, are very, very ,very small.  Much less than many other causes – “Coronavirus (COVID-19) was the 26th leading cause of death in June 2021 in England (accounting for 0.9% of all deaths registered in June); in Wales, COVID-19 accounted for 0.1% of all deaths so the numbers were too small to reliably rank against other leading causes of death.”: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/june2021

I’m not telling people what to think, and I would never wish to ridicule or criticise those who have been made afraid.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and seeing loved ones struggle and even die from this virus can do a number on you.  But seriously guys, lets get some perspective on the risk of this virus as it is presenting now, and lets grow a pair!

Personally, even though I am “double jabbed”, I will never get a “vaccine passport” and will never take part in an event that requires me to have one.  For me it is a step too far and completely unjustified given the low level of risk to life and limb currently at large.

And one uncomfortable truth that very many of us on this page will have to face up to is that one of the single biggest indicators as to whether an individual will succumb and die from the virus rather than shaking it off, is obesity.  After age, it is one of the biggest risk factors.  So if, like me, you may have a few extra pounds and you are concerned to try and reduce your personal risk, rather than just trying to point the finger at someone else as it being “their” fault, then you need to get to grips with the really uncomfortable reality that losing a few pounds, not whinging at other people for not wearing a mask, or for not getting jabbed or whatever, is the one most significant thing you can do to improve your own safety.

 

[wurzzelParticipant 2734xp 3]

of course from a UK perspective the current policing bill going through the respective houses as we speak does more damage to public gatherings than making people who want to go nightclubs have vaccinations

[osbad 4279xp 1]

Yup.  Yet it wouldn’t have stood a snowball in hell’s chance of getting through parliament if certain sections of the population hadn’t been banging on their doors complaining about the increased pandemic risk from large assemblies…

Masks yes, vaccines yes.  Compulsion no!

[warhammergrimace 13766xp 1]

I suspect going forward after the pandemic, you’ll need proof of vaccines to visit countries for insurance purposes. I can see insurance companies stating they won’t insure you unless you’ve had the appropriate vaccines for the country you’re visiting.  Also I expect countries to ask proof of vaccines for a visa application. Would it bother me, no not really. I’ve visited a wide variety of countries where you’re teccomended to get particular vaccines, if that becomes compulsory then fair enough.

[khusrauParticipant 1169xp 1]

Sorry. That’s not even close to being true. The current UK policing bill is unrelated to pandemic provisions.

I won’t comment on it as that is politics.

[wurzzelParticipant 2734xp 0]

@khusrau no it doesn’t have anything to do with the pandemic but it is related to the right to free assembly, which osbad mentioned in his comment. However as the thread is all about Covid Passports the whole thing is political.

[doctoretherParticipant 9166xp 9]

Just to pick this up;

If someone had Covid and recovered from it then they’re basically in a better position than someone who has had the vaccines yet there are people who don’t even know they had Covid.

I think you need to back that up with very good references, because plenty of people have been infected multiple times by the virus, and suffered to greater or less extents. The idea that infection means you have automatically now got an immune response is not true. From my reading of various sources (advantages of working in a group that works on a large Covid-19 database for health science in the UK) there is no conclusive evidence that infection leads to immunity with this virus.
This is collates some results, but again, their demographics for testing are not fully representative nor a large enough cohort. COVID reinfections are unusual — but could still help the virus to spread (nature.com)

In the midst of so much panic and misinformation, it is SO important not to lose our sense of perspective and in our fear of death begin to be afraid of living. What is life without risk? Is a virus with a microscopic chance of killing you really worth the loss of all of our freedoms?

Again to quote this post, and in general. As a scientist myself, I would be careful using the term “experts” like that. It’s been bad enough with the likes of Gove saying “we have had enough of listening to experts” when it came to Brexit. Experts, when they make decisions based upon the consensus of a committee to direct policy is great – until the politicians just ignore the advice.

As to the perspective of dying from a virus, and other illnesses, the point is this; Why should you even have to have the chance of death when the measures to prevent infection are as easy as social distancing,  a mask, and a vaccine.

I would also like to note the issue is perhaps less death due to covid, but a) seriously ill people in hospital putting other patients at risk i.e. not enough beds, operations/treatments being delayed and b) long covid. While we could say “Oh but we cope with winter flu” sure. But that is because our system already is setup with that as part of the service provided in those peak times. Covid is putting people into hospital in the “off season” as it were.

As for vaccine passports, they are not a new thing, and used to be common during the post war era. I think a lot of our current generation’s view of health care measures are based on the fact that health care has improved life dramatically and so we have never had to comprehend limitations on what we can do based upon viruses and outbreaks. Much the same as why back in the day, having a free vaccination for polio was considered fine, even if the data (no matter how fraudulently it was formed) shows vaccines might, might, cause autism (but that is also related to how in this day and age can’t stand to consider their child might have autism for no discernable reason).

Finally if you are worried about vaccine passports, really, I worry more about other stuff, like the UK Gov attempting to crack down on the freedoms of the press. If you worry about your data, well you are a) using a computer and b) likely have a mobile phone. So the gov already knows enough about you.

For context this is the huge project my boss is lead on CO-CONNECT: Linking COVID-19 immunity data – HDR UK

I don’t work on it directly, I don’t do health data but computational chemisty and materials science, plus some drug/disease screening Ai methods.

[khusrauParticipant 1169xp 3]

Thankyou. I felt like saying something similar, but I no longer have the energy to argue with folk who listen to politicians and TV pundits rather than scientists.

[elessar2590 18207xp 0]

@doctorther reinfection can occur but the rate is extremely low.

https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/study-covid-19-reinfection-rate-less-than-1-for-those-who-had-severe-illness

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