Sad news about 4Ground going into Liquidation

[nakchak 5539xp 4]

@wkeyser your about a million miles from the truth matey, it’s a restructuring for reasons I’m not at liberty to disclose.  Your right to feel settled by @warzan ?

@riley-keith nice rant but wrong, incorrect, 2+2=5,!TRUE and a perfect example of the keyboard warriors already mentioned on this thread, in lieu of the official response from 4ground reread warzans, and understand that tymeagain was the original company that spun out 4ground as a limited company as it was a side project of their original business (reproduction weapons, historical games, the sort of thing u can buy in most English heritage gift shops…) so tin foil hats off to you but your mistaking causation and correlation here

[chaingunParticipant 1939xp 3]

It’s a shame people can’t help but to speculate, rumour munger about things they know absolutely nothing about.

I am a kickstarter backer and a very close friend to Ben and Hellyn and it hurts me as much anyone else. This was the reason I asked for this community to act as adults and let us wait and see when they are ready to talk. Spreading rumours and talking about things you don’t know does not help the situation and only stirs up unwanted garbage.

So, if you respect the guys at 4Ground then wish them all the best in these troubled times and wait to hear anything further.

[wkeyserParticipant 91xp 2]

I love those in the know saying its ok honestly I know all about it and it will be ok. In the mean time we see things like the post of gee we have three of the starter packs done and the Beast then nothing for months and months. And then restructure then liquidation and all that it imply s.

well guess what I have a real hard time believing anything coming from 4 Ground. But again let me state I think the rules are fantastic and I really really want this to work. I went thru the kickstarter page again and most of the updates and it looks so exciting I love it, and watching the videos I just love the game, then it goes to the gee just trust us we are doing fine. Sorry right now I feel we are screwed, if not then I will be over joyed.

I have heard from a number of gamers who have purchased items via mail order from 4Ground and the service was horrible, this is in stark contrast to my experience a number of years ago when the service was fantastic, then the dropping of the forum, then the messages, you really think that those that have thrown good money at the Kickstarter will just sit back and wait without the fears and worry’s of lost money making us speculate?

[caledor2 4273xp 2]

@chaingun not only that, rumour munger can lead to misinforming and scarring people and this in turn can lead to more harm to the company as people might stop supporting/buying products from a company that might not even be in financial danger.

This doesn’t apply to only 4ground but other companies as well.

People should learn to wait for the facts to be put forth than just spewing forth information based on small tidbits and own fears and worries. I understand myself, I have back several games and have been lucky not be in one that has gone wrong so far.

But I have also bought several kits from 4gound and I have never been let down in all that time, even when an order took a bit longer than usual. I got all the support  I wanted. These guys are gamers/hobbyists just as us and want the best and will try to give the best. Even if you don’t hear something for a while it doesn’t mean they are not doing anything.

[chaingunParticipant 1939xp 1]

@wkeyser you are very vocal on the kickstarter page and believe me I would not say anything that would disrupt the legal position they are in. So if I did know something then you can be rest assured it is not my place to say. I’m sure we will all know in good time.

[tankkommanderParticipant 6421xp 0]

There appears to be two separate issues here;

The future of 4Ground

The future of the KS projects

As far as I can see 4Ground is still in business, has a website at a new address, still attending conventions, and has been amalgamated back in to the parent company. So at the moment, in the absence of contrary information, all looks okay for the future of our mdf terrain. I have not heard of anyone who made an order prior to the amalgamation not having their order fulfilled.

As to KS projects…good luck folks. I hope it works out, but the KS platform offers zero protection. This is why I do not back any KS project as I object to KS creaming off profit with zero risk.

[sundancer 42972xp 2]

Well said @tankkommander

Kickstarters are investments, not pre-orders. Investments (some times borderline gambles) that can go south. People tend to forget that. You’ll always need to keep that in the back of your head when backing a project.

That being said I really, genuinly wish for everybody getting what they backed and 4Grounds to get it’s feet back on the ground… 🙂

[suetoniuspaullinusMember 12198xp 2]

On the other hand if nobody would risk gambling with their disposable income on KS I think we would have all missed out massively.

Im pretty sure we wouldn’t have Spectre Minatures or Empress Moderns without KS.

Out of the 15 successful KS I have backed over the last few years only two are outstanding and one of those has now started shipping.

i will certainly continue to back stuff I’m passionate about if I can afford the eventual  loss of hobby allocated funds.

[Anonymous 0xp 3]

Just going to make a quick comment on KS

@sundancer makes a very important point – what a lot of people don’t realise is that Kickstarter and other crowdfunding websites are just an investment market, bringing two types of people together – those who want money and those who are willing to risk it.  KS do this rather well but fundamentally it really is no different from a stock market or a bank – and the more risky an investment looks, the more chance that the outcome may not meet your expectations.

One thing I find strange with KS is the lack of financial information that companies have to show.  We are investing money and we don’t have an essential piece of information that is needed in order to make a informed decision on the level of risk involved.  Saying that I have backed 50+ kickstarters (I think it is 67 and I am just waiting for Bear Head to send me a Einstein and Lovecraft figure).  Some big, most small and not all related to toy soldiers.  Some have exceeded expectations, some have been very underwhelming.  None haven’t turned up.  Overall I am quite happy and can say in some tiny way I have helped bring Burrows and Badgers to the world.

[vladvondrakParticipant 278xp 0]

All Ltd companies are registered with companies house. All financial information is filled there as well as incorporation documents and lists of directors.

This is only Ltd companies not independent self employed businesses.

[seldon9 12954xp 2]

Something that’s been bugging me about KS debates is the idea that people who complain about kickstarters they’ve backed don’t understand how KS works. I don’t buy that argument now. They do understand. They don’t forget that it’s not a pre-order service or that there’s a chance a KS may go south. How many similar threads and articles have we had on this now? This is a tired argument.

I trust the 4Ground team to deliver on this but anyone who follows kickstarters knows that if the backers perceive something as being slightly amiss they’ll start complaining. Some will be implacable until they see the final product / service. I’m afraid those are the waters you’re swimming in when you run a kickstarter.

[wkeyserParticipant 91xp 3]

Ok I know Kickstarter is an investment that can go wrong and most backers understand this. However, it is not the investors’ fault that things go wrong. The issue for me is that if it goes wrong and has a long delay I am fine with that and can live with that as I know this is sometimes a big step for companies to launch new products , while others use it as a financing scheme for new products without taking any risk themselves. I will usually only Kickstart with companies that are established.

 

The issue with this kickstarter (and not talking about any others that went really well or failed) is that 4Ground seem from the information in the updates to not have been honest in the communications with those investors that gave them over 100,000 pounds to bring to the market an interesting set of rules with figures to enhance their already existing range of mdf buildings. Yes I include withholding information as being dis honest.

 

If you take another company Kickstarter that of TT combat with their Carnevale figures and rules and buildings pretty much the same concept as 4Ground had. They cast the figures in resin in house, and produced buildings in mdf. The total was 797 backers for 129,695 pounds again close to 4 Grounds with actually more backers. That had lots more miniatures many copies of an earlier run of Carnevale by another manufacturer and a set of rules that they just kind of updated.  They delivered late if I remember 6 months or so. But they were much better than 4 Ground at communicating.

So sorry 4 Ground screwed the pooch on this one and are not upfront with their backers which is what the issue is for me. I hope they pull this off and I get the miniatures, the figures from Gripping beast the mat and all the other stuff including custom dice. Do I think I will get this I honestly do not know But I can tell you this that most companies will tell all and sundry, friends and family that all is well until they turn the lights off and walk away, happens all the time.

[phaidknott 7023xp 1]

Wow I hadn’t checked the KS comments page.

@wkeyser Your latest theory that the 3D printed miniatures don’t even exist is starting to get worrying. You’ve got yourself in such a negative feedback loop you can’t see the light. Even if the KS ships and you get all the stuff you pledged for I don’t think you’ll be happy because you’ve convinced yourself to not be happy with the KS. Ben’s biggest wish for the KS is that the backers will be happy, but from your responses I feel the only way you’ll be happy is if the KS DOES fail so you can shout to the world “See, I told you I was right”.

Just take a step back and take a deep breath. The communication from 4Ground has been sparse I admit, but it’s been that way for the entirety of the KS (so no sudden change there). The communication from 4Ground is something they DO need to drastically improve on (perhaps it’s the root of many of the woes). But the KS hasn’t shipped in March 2019 as promised, but this isn’t the only KS to be hit with delays (heck my Star Saga KS expansions shipped almost 2 years after the original estimated shipment date). Just because it’s late doesn’t automatically means if going to fail.

As Bens response earlier said they intend to ship everything as promised, but dates etc will have to evolve organically. And perhaps too many of us DO treat KS as a pre-order shop (although there’s lots of companies that use the platform as such). And like many KS schemes the product also changes (for example the Oculus Rift when from having no external tracking sensors to needing three for room tracking, but there was no legal “suing” by the backers about the change, it was just accepted by the majority of the backers. And this is a major term, “majority”…

Just like Brexit, you’ll have backers who disagree with the decisions made. The backers voted for the 3D printed minis (after 4Ground shipped a free sample to EVERY backer so they could see for themselves). I was for the PVC minis, as I feel the normal dropcast resin doesn’t make for good gaming minis (as they can be too fragile). But after getting the sample I was convinced on the durability of them as a gaming mini (and astounded at the detail, until you see one of these things in the flesh it’s hard to describe…you’ll never need to deal with moldlines and/or flash again). So the backers vote shifted the estimated dates. And the dice system (as you know I also preferred the original one was changed (this time without a vote), but from feedback from backers at the beta weekend (some are here) and at demo games at shows. Again a decision not all agreed with. But sometimes you just have to accept the result and move on (or you’ll never be happy with the end result and keep finding fault with everything and stating “See, I told you I was right”).

Await the news, it will come when the chaps at 4Ground are ready (remember Ben has been ill over the past few months, so a lot of their time will rightly be dealing with Ben and his illness at the moment). Give them a chance to get out of these issues and try to remember the livestreams and videos they did at the start of the process, the enthusiasm and just general happiness at bringing it all to physical reality (did they really seem like cynical businessmen intending to rip you off?). On a sidenote the livestreams dropped off as the viewers went down to about 8 people AND Cad’s laptop basically overheated and nearly blew up on the last one they did)

But for now, just await the news (if its bad news it’s bad news, but I’ve seen nothing yet confirming things either way) 🙂

PS. Ben is dealing with his illness in typical Ben fashion after posting what has happened to him on the Facebook page stating he had a face “only a mother could love” and the staff are clubbing together for a “paper bag fund” (which raised a wry smile, as it’s a very typical English Gentlemanly response that you don’t often see these days).

[sundancer 42972xp 0]

A paper bag? You mean the eco friendly variant of the 3D movement tray? 😉

[skiptotheend 4525xp 5]

any money put into a kickstarter has to be “If I lose this I don’t care” attitude and very disposable much like any money people bet/buy shares etc with.

Because otherwise you are enforcing a shop dynamic or something which isn’t that (at best its a ‘beta’ shop dynamic –

“if we do this to completion, then this will be a product we continue to make”.

You’re basically a share holder in an idea which then on completion your share is bought from you in replace of product sometimes 2 or 3 fold the volume for the price you put in. However sometimes you are not, much like a bet, a dice roll or shares.

To get angry at any failed or delayed kickstarter (unless the people specifically were trying to fleece people – which is RARE and definitely not the case here) is just moronic. and ranting on a forum isn’t going to speed up the process.

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