Sad news about 4Ground going into Liquidation

[warcasteParticipant 98xp 4]

I’m afraid I don’t think that things are as straightforward as Cad and Ben are suggesting and I am wondering as to the quality of the advice that they have been given. As a banker I specialised in insolvency for many years dealing with this size of company and this is very far from a simple book keeping exercise.

The company is subject to a Creditor’s Voluntary Liquidation which is a form of corporate bankruptcy not a straightforward reorganisation. This means that at the date of the resolution the company ceased trading and the situation should have effectively been frozen. There are many implications to this not least to the backers of the Kickstarter but also in relation to the ability to take control of the company assets and start again.

With effect from the liquidation the liquidator is in control of the company and is obliged to act in the best interests of the creditors from a financial point of view. He will make best endeavours to realise the assets of the company for the best price and then share the money out according to the order of priority of the creditors. The KS backers will be general unsecured creditors and is near the bottom of the list, here is a quick overview.

Unfortunately I suspect that the KS backers are likely to receive a minimal amount back from the liquidation but I think that they should lodge a claim with the liquidator whose details are on the Gazette notice here

Whilst I think it is to their credit that Ben and Cad wish to honour the Kickstarter I think that there is no legal obligation to do so since that would mean that they have been effectively been preferred as creditors. In any event there is no reason not to lodge a claim in the liquidation since this would have nothing really to do with Ben and Cad anyhow.

I am also concerned at Ben’s statement that Tymeagain has bought the company assets since the Liquidator must obtain best price for these on the open market. I find it difficult to believe that this has been done correctly in the short time since the posting of the notice.

I would strongly suggest that anyone who seeks clarification on this contacts the liquidator.

As a final note I would point out that I now operate an MDF terrain and miniatures company and it is pure coincidence that I happen to know about this kind of thing.

[suetoniuspaullinusMember 12198xp 4]

I’m not going to pretend to have any understanding of the matter I just hope and will keep my fingers crossed Ben, Cad and Co will come out of this malarkey unharmed.

They have been such assets to the hobby that I wouldn’t want to even consider imagining a future without them.

After all, they owe me a Roman Fort!!!

?

[bluehealerParticipant 1371xp 0]

Gutted! Is this another example of Kickstarter taking an established wargaming company and sending it to the brink?

[ghent99 3589xp 1]

The communication with the Kickstarter has been an issue for awhile  and now we have this show up.  On June 13th they send out the usual all is well message and 13 days later state that there is a liquidation going on.  Here in the States I would understand the process a bit better as the various types of bankruptcy so I don’t understand if this is a reorganization of debt and corporate status or if this is a sale of assets to cover debts as a corp closes operations.

I know the folks here at OTT / the old money BoW are close to the operators of 4Ground and I personally enjoy their time here.  It is my wish that the reorg moves smoothly and they are stronger for it.  I also hope that the game will get a revitalization and it will come into the market place soon.

 

Being a business owner is not easy and unless you have been at the helm it is impossible to know the pressure the owner is under.   It is a different world and one of being alone without others to understand, I hope they keep their heads above water in both the personal and business sense.

[ghent99 3589xp 0]

Fyi this is the prior update from June 13th.  I do hope everyone is well but it looks that this is dated the same day as the liquidation.

Here it is:

Hello Kickstarter backers,

I wanted to do a quick update just to let you know I am back in the room.

Almost as soon as I posted the last up date I was not only ill but more ill than I had been for the last few years, requiring tests biopsy surgery.  So from saying in the last update lm here to chat, I have not been able to communicate with you, not good!

So I have loads to respond to and barring any surgery other than that planed for the end of next week, I will get back to you.

We are trading at Phalanx this weekend and I will be there if any of you wish to talk in person with me.

Talk to you soon

Ben

 

 

[tankkommanderParticipant 6429xp 0]

@warcaste it may be the case that 4Ground had already been hollowed-out prior to the liquidation. Assets having been moved to the new trading entity, leaving just the legacy liabilities (the KS for example).

Without access to the accounts it is all just speculation. The good news is that the MDF terrain business is still running.

[warcasteParticipant 98xp 4]

@tankkommander yes it is possible however then the liquidator would be obliged to check any such transactions to ensure that they were not at undervalue in a deliberate attempt to hide assets from the creditors, he can go back two years for this and reverse any such transactions. Remember that there are real people losing real money from liquidations and it is not right to simply shift things and walk away from liabilities – this includes the KS backers by the way.

[phaidknott 7027xp 1]

Well all this is speculation, we don’t know the intent for the re-organisation nor the advice given (and why). We’ll have to await more information from the “horses mouth” (so to speak) before making judgement.

The hobby is filled with traders who began their companies because they too were hobbyists. I’d prefer to thing as us all as a bunch of amateurs when it comes to the world of corporate legalities and as such any possible “legal manovering” of things like the KS responsibility are either caught up in the process or simply unintended.

I DO like to think the best of people, sometimes it’s to my downfall but it’s better than the alternative 🙂

 

[olliepMember 6011xp 0]

That would explain the lack of email response to an enquiry I sent…

Not good news, hope the guys get it sorted as love their stuff!

[jemmyParticipant 2428xp 1]

Kickstarters, liabilities, bankruptcy and all this is sad enough, but we shan´t forget to wish Ben (Mr. Enthusiasm) all the best for his surgery, his health and well-being.

God bless you.

[sundancer 43074xp 0]

Oh man 🙁 I hope this all works out.

[chaingunParticipant 1939xp 5]

This has been sad news in many ways as Big Ben is a good friend and his wife Hellen is a lovely lady and we have spent many hours gaming and shooting the crap putting the world to right.

I know that this wouldn’t have been an easy decision to make for all and I know that this has brought about an illness that Big Ben is currently suffering.

So please let’s not speculate or create rumours or worse scare munger until they are ready to talk, after all they could be tied up in legal issues that prevent them from talking.

I think what’s best for now is for us all to act as adults and wish them all the best and we look forward to hearing from them, when the dust has settled. ??

[ghent99 3589xp 0]

The problem with waiting for them to communicate is that if there is an issue and we just wait and see those that backed the kickstarter would miss the July 3 deadline.  I don’t know British law at all and so this is all very confusing to someone used to a different system, or more likely the same system with just different terms.

It would be nice to know if the kickstarter is dead because the creditors will miss out on the deadline or if this debt will transfer to a new entity that will operate the kickstarter.

These are rather fair questions to ask, not easy for the community, but fair.

[limburger 21775xp 1]

I’m more worried about Big Ben’s health to be honest.

@ghent99 kickstarters are risky. I know it’s a broken record, but that is the truth especially when companies create something ‘new’ (within their expertise). I’d have no doubt that they’d be more successful if the project had been buildings only.

This isn’t the first one to experience issues after funding and it won’t be the last.

And depending on what you pledged for you may have gotten some bits and pieces already, which is more than what other kickstarters have delivered (Relic Knights only has a print&play of the rules).

 

[ghent99 3589xp 0]

@limburger yes kickstarters are a crap shoot.  The point of my post was to let people know about issues that have been brought up before in this thread and on the Kickstarter.  I think that looking over both threads everyone is worried more about the people involved at 4ground or what ever they will be called in the future and especially Ben.

That is separate from the situation they have created with the kickstarter and the liquidation.  The communication has been a bit shoddy, and yes at least they are doing some communication,  and redundant with some very obvious obfuscation when it comes to what is going on with the KS.

I am personally tired of comparing this KS to that KS as if there is a connection.  What we get or don’t get from one has zero bearing on what we get from another.  Each one is a separate business deal and they need to be treated that way with each business standing on its own merits.  Saying well at least you got X while I didn’t get anything from this other one is a strawman argument and has no place in this discussion.

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