Remembering D-Day and the difficulty of being a German

[limburger 21680xp 1]

Today there was a slightly awkward press photo of the British Queen shaking hands with leaders of the Allied nations …
Awkward ? Yup because Merkel was there too, but Putin wasn’t (wouldn’t be surprised if he hadn’t been invited given how we are supposed to ‘hate’ his country …) … and this being the internet era someone had to tweet it too.
It kind of sucks it has been removed, because it highlights how something as basic as this has become a political event.

The twitter comments about anything Trump did today have been pretty damn nasty too.
I wish people would shut up about such things for one day.

Anyways … we have similar discussions on the May 4th (*) when we remember the fallen Dutch soldiers.
Officially it is all Dutch soldiers (including those in less popular conflicts like Sbrenica and Indonesia), but some want to restrict it to WW2 Allies only.German officials have been included as guests, but this has resulted in even more awkard stupidity because the organisation didn’t want to play the Dutch national anthem … it’s as if we refuse to be somewhat proud of our own flockin’ country.

I think part of the problem is that having to remember something in which you were the bad guys is a reminder that your own nation has a dark side too.

(*) side note : that’s why Star Wars day always feels like a bad joke to me as the rest of the world is making fun of a fictional battle while we remember those who died for our freedom …

[mecha82Participant 10037xp 0]

@limburger It’s ironic how you talk about event some how having become political event while making this about politics. I am sure they didn’t include Putin because of man himself and him having habit of getting rid of his political enemies and as well as those that are being critic towards him. Just like that guy who ruled Germany back then and was taken down by Allies and Soviets. So I don’t get your claim that people are supposed to “hate” his country when that’s not the case. But then again I am just reasonable person who would had hoped that no one would bring politics into this thread.

[woldenspoonsParticipant 3557xp 2]

@limburger that does indeed seem awkward.

I find at this time that we are rapidly approaching the time there will be no veterans left to remind us and more importantly, the millenials, of what truly happened and why.

But back to wargaming. I always wondered about these ‘celebration’ events and each point of view, thank you all for sharing @sundancer for starting this and all of your stories.

Now who’s for a game of Red’s vs blues?

[bothiParticipant 6472xp 3]

I miss you too @oriskany. You should visit Germany some time 🙂

On the topic: yeah this is a real tough one. A lot of people here in Germany are not able to or don’t want to look a that really dark time of our country in depth or even on differentiating basis. “It was just bad. All of it. Can we talk about something else?”. I think it is partly due that we do that stuff in basic and elementary school over and over (literally 10 years of history classes und you only get WW2 and the French Revolution, I never even heard of how the first world war started in 13 years of school). This now may sound like: hey shouldn’t be everybody then be really good informed about the topic? Unfortunately no. Most of that stuff in school is quite superficial and annoying. Let’s be honest, a lot of people don’t have an interest in history. Especially not as teenagers. Same goes for me. When I played 40k as a 12y old, I always though of playing a WW2 would be so uninteresting and dull. With 20 I started an interest in Flames of War and WW2, but thought I could never play Napoleonics. That would be so uninteresting and dull. Later I read up on the French Revolution (again) and the 20 years after it (I never payed attention in school). Today I play Napoleonics. A lot. And Romans. And other Ancients. And WW2. And 40k. And Shotte&Pike. And a lot more…

So back top topic. There are a few laws in Germany that prevent you from showing certain logos and insignia in public. Swastikas, SS Skulls, etc.. They can only be shown to give a historic representation or in art. But even that is up to how the law for example defines art. Only last year Computer Games were declared art in that sense. Before you could only buy a censored copy of let’s say Wolfenstein without those symbols.

We did a lot of FoW events and tournaments back in the day. And we could possibly have argued that our big D-Day event five years ago (3 days, 11 6×4 tables, nearly 20 players and about 4000 minis), was a historic representation and it was ok to show those symbols. But we didn’t want to risk it and always had a disclaimer in our event and tournament discriptions that models and dice  with those symbols are not allowed in our events. Yes we had to ban dice, as Battlefront is producing dice with unit symbols on them. Like the Afrika Korps Palmtree or the SS Skull. Sounds silly, but we felt much better with a ruling like that. From a legal standpoint. I know that 90% of other organizers feel the same. I also know that most people handle it like this in their private gaming groups. I even recognized that the German Tank Museum on their open day put some duct tape over the Afrika Korps Palmtree on their running Panzer IV when they were showing it off in the mud pit. Because the television was there and they don’t want to be stamped in a certain way. A FREAKING MUSEUM! wtf…

But, I can remember that a lot of years back a good friend of mine put a Stuka on the table with a Swastika on the tail fin during a private game. Historically correct, but it made a few people (including me) quite uncomfortable. I can’t really explain why. It just felt weird. I guess indoctrination still works today.

Talking about the D-Day event: First of all, it was AMAZING! On the first day (Friday Evening) I played the British to land at Pegasus Bridge and got annihilated. Saturday I was defending Utah Beach while being attacked by two players. One from the beach and one from the 82nd Airborne behind me. I managed to hold the beach for nearly two days (ingame time). Sunday we played Villers Bocage and I got to field Wittman and his 101st heavy tanks. We annihilated the Desert Rats. BUT during the Saturday suddenly two Police Officer walked into the place in full uniform looking like they were on duty. The temperature dropped a few degrees immediately and every conversation and playing stopped. Everybodies first thought was: We are in trouble, someone called the police. Although we definately did nothing wrong. Turns out those two were on lunch break and are absolute history buffs. They read about our event in some newspaper and wanted to check out what was going on. Really nice people and really knowledgeable about WW2. I’m glad that I got to know them. But I can instantly recall the feeling I had when I first saw them. Yeah, indoctrination definately still works…

Fun fact: during that event we calculated that the sun came up on the British Beaches 6 minutes earlier than on the US Beaches.

So take from this wall of text what you want. Sorry, it got much longer than expected. But the topic is still hard to discuss in Germany and you have to approach the topic with much care unless you want to get stamped as a Nazi. Really thin ice. And yes I really don’t like and it was one of the best things about the Bootcamps I visited, that you can just sit around with @oriskany, @DavePBG, @limburger, @brucelea, @buggeroff and all those I am forgeting right now (sorry) and just talk about this stuff without the “fear” that every word you say could be interpreted in a wrong way.

[sundancer 42927xp 1]

Gee, I never though this topic getting this big and personal and I am thankful to you all for keeping it civilized.  @bothi I hear you on repeated school topics… I hated them in 9th and 10th grade… and the thin ice isn’t even ice sometimes.

Here’s to good people and civilized discussion!

[sundancer 42927xp 3]

Oh and I might just add that my grandfather was with the Luftwaffe in WW II as anti air gunner. I still have his war diary somewhere and his Luftwaffe dagger. After the war he was one of the first to be employed in the Bundeswehr Luftwaffe and stayed there until retirement as Oberstleutnant (lieutenant colonel if translation is correct?). And whenever asked he would talk about the war, the people and everything that happened during and after the war. Sadly he’ s not with us any more. Also my brother and I did military service (he’s a Leutnant (lieutenant) and I stayed at a lower rank… it was easy living as Hauptgefreiter (lance corporal))

[wittmann007Participant 588xp 0]

@oriskany – I’m like a Dreadnought. They wake me up whenever I’m needed. 😛

@sundancer – Reckon you could post a couple photos? Would be fantastic to see those.

[crazyredcoatParticipant 13642xp 4]

I wanted to take plenty of time to write my thoughts on this, but all the time I spend I am not sure I will truly understand why people have these reactions, and that is not a mark on them in the slightest. I am British, and that is why I can’t understand how a German, or a Pole, or Frenchman would feel about these things. I can empathise, and I do, but I cannot understand. We are all different in how we remember, or even think of, the past. We celebrate great victories and lament horrible defeats, but each of us has our own way of doing this. I feel forgetting is dangerous, and too many people are willing to do so, but when the past is bleak, it can hurt to remember it. As awkward as it may seem, I think that both sides of a conflict discussing it, even if it is in this context with our little toy soldiers, is the best way forward. Let people celebrate in their own way, let them mourn in their own way. If you feel WW2 is too close to home to play games in, then you can do that. I will respect that, but let others enjoy the same freedom. For example, I will never play SS in WW2, I am simply not comfortable with it, but I would never think to tell someone else that they are wrong in thinking the opposite. I feel it is good to invite the German Chancellor to remember the past with us, because they were still people in those bunkers atop the cliffs and lining the beaches and they deserve to be remembered.

[shingen 13941xp 1]

Let me add one more angle to view the issue.

I was born in Poland over 30 years after the War ended and even today I suffer trauma connected with the war. When I was a child most TV shows and movies were somehow connected with struggle against the Germans (please note, that in the 70 and 80 one was not allowed to talk about aggression of USSR). My grandparents while talking about their childhood talked almost exclusively about atrocities they suffered, hunger and general misery of those times. My friends at the time were fed with similar stories at their homes. We most often played as soldiers of constipation Home Army or Polish tankers in Polish Folk Army (not sure if the translation is right here) organized by the Soviets – as shown in then popular TV show.

In effect today I can’t imagine myself having any fun in doing anything connected with the War – I can’t see myself playing any kind of wargame set in that time period, regardless of which side I would play.

Many other Poles I know still see themselves (almost personally) as victims of the War and can’t get over that trauma, to the point that even academic discussion about actions of some people in that period is very difficult.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that while no one should forget about history to avoid repeating the same mistakes, focusing too much on some of its aspects may twist whole generations and in the end twist popular understanding of commemorated events and their effects making whole endeavour pointless.

[limburger 21680xp 0]

@mecha82 politics are part of this … whether we like it or not.

The simple fact as to wether or not to include German politicians in any WW2 related event is still a sensitive subject to a lot of people, especially the older generations who have had to deal with the immediate effects of the war.

I’d say it is about time we included Germany, because it’s only their ancestors who did bad things during the war.
And to have Merkel present is a great step forward.
It sucks that the news reporters had to make such a weird and awkard caption, but at the same time it would have been weirder to have her excluded from that moment just so that we could have a nice historically accurate picture of the Allies.

And no matter how much we may dislike the likes of Trump or Putin … their ancestors were our allies and as such they deserve to be included.

If we were to exclude people/politicians based on our current politics and personal dislike we’d set the scene for the sequel.
I’d even argue that it was this sort of thing that allowed Hitler to gain power.

Forgive, but do not forget.

// —

I wonder how our Japanese friends deal with this.

[sundancer 42927xp 0]

@wittmann007 afraid not. There in a storage box somewhere in the garage. It would be quite an effort to find the correct box. But I’ll think of it should I stumble upon them.

[bothiParticipant 6472xp 1]

Very well put @crazyredcoat. I couldn’t have said it better.

[skiptotheend 4524xp 0]

These posts reminded me

I think dan carlin hints at this is one of his really early podcasts, he basically states that he was writing an essay about the tactical superiority of the mongols and his lecturer was negating him at every turn he only realised later because although he saw it as just history, his ethnically chinese lecturer saw the mongols as murderers during that period.

He then goes on to explain that at some point SOMEONE will write a positive book on the nazis (hes playing devils advocate) the only thing holding it back is time. Maybe although many veterens have died now, they and their stories are still on living memory, maybe in another 50 or 100 years time, countries awkwardness about ww2 will change in time for pure fact. But for now maybe things such as dedicating to d day is for some stilltoo recent.

 

On the japanese front they still havent accepted blame for things which happened in korea and china, so i dont think they ultimately care (also i think their education on that part of history is a bit…skewed

And last parting bit i once had a walking tour around munich which was done by an american about the rise of nazism, he praised the german people for the efforts they done to amend for certain things and that munich  is proud that the jewish community came back and reside in their city (i even saw a protest against a right wing politician whilst there adamently opposed by many many people). But he left a parting shot saying the germans have accepted their history, but what of the countries who helped them control their countries eg: people in france were also rounded up by the french (he named some other countries too) and stated about the regiments made up from other countries who were as fanatical as the german ones. But these countries havent accepted their part and push their blame onto just germany. I found this a fascinating insight

 

[oriskany 60771xp 2]

Good to hear from you again @wittmann007 and @bothi .  Oh, and yes the sun came up earlier on the more easterly beaches, but the optimum tide conditions were actually 30-45 minutes later.  For this reason, landings on Gold, Juno, and Sword were set to kick off about half an hour later than on Omaha and Utah.

As far as everything else goes, treat the German soldier with respect, great the Allied solider with respect, never forget the civilians, done.  Everything else starts to devolve into identity politics.

[andre77 13013xp 3]

I am just thankful for the Soldiers of the Allies East and West, who got us rid of fascism in europe (at least for a very long time). And i think every politician should be allowed to thank the veterans of this big battle. People should watch out when politicians will stay away from these events. These politicians are trying to change history in their favor. I think Stalin was also a fascist and people are still celebrating him.

Bad things happen at war on both sides. And we germans were best at it, that we have to admit. So many germans still feel ashamed of it. And i think it is not wrong, that we feel this way. But we should not feel guilty. The last veterans of this war will die in the next 5 years. So no one will be left to say to us how it felt to be in this war. Only pictures and distant voices will be left

I’m so with sundancer. We had so many history classes about the third reich in school. I once asked my teacher, why don’t do modern history or ancient history. Futile. These were not included in the plans of classes. History books ended after the WW2. And i would say they now include just 2 more Chapters: The DDR and the Mauerfall.

But i have to say i learned the most of history through wargaming. Sadly at all times there was war. Lucky for us not in middle europe. And not only about formations and battle sites. It is natural that you learn about the people and their thinking. What did we luckily changed. No more obedient behaviour to politicians, nobility or religions. We are free to think, what we think is right. Something fascism always and still tries to prevent.

So i close my wall of text on D-Day.

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