Printing one of the Titan Forge Patreon minis with supports already done!

[noyjatatParticipant 16155xp 1]

So this month of April 2020 Titan Forge has released the files for a number of wizards with the supports already done. It’s a bit of a test run for them potentially offering another level of membership with all files having this.

I had a look through what was available and chose the mini with the lowest height (shortest print time) which turned out to be a lovely lion/big cat.

Have to say I am very impressed. it came out looking good and only took me 10 minutes to clean up using side cutters and fine grade flexible sanding sticks. Took photos to show you the details. For the final photos I did a zenith highlight and threw it in the photo booth.

@lawnor this was a super easy process and very pleased with how it has come out.

 

[blinky465 17027xp 1]

I’ve been a supporter of Titan Forge since January and they’ve consistently produced brilliant looking miniatures. Even though this month’s release didn’t have much to interest me, I stayed onboard just for this cat/lion model. I know a lot of people really like pre-supported models, but I still prefer being able to scale and angle the print to better suit my printer. That said, I might just throw the pre-supported version of the model onto my print bed next time I have some minis to print.

Your printer captures the details really nicely – is it a Mars, Photon or something else?

[lawnor 25928xp 1]

Cheers.  That does seem easier.  Am I to understand that if a model comes pre-supported then you can’t remove the supports to rescale and tweak?  I’ve put a reminder in my diary to visit the patreon on the last day of the month as I might back just in time even if I don’t order a printer yet.  I’ve watched those videos.  They were very interesting and I feel I can apply everything from them given a chance to.  Good stuff.

I was looking at the resins today as my house mate wanted to look at the COSHH sheets before I buy in.  He’s an ex-chemist and he has a baby and toddler who would end up near it at some point.  Anycubic sell 2 types.  Normal and plant based.  Plant says its biodegradeable.  Is that a problem for us given we will want them to hold their shape for decades ideally?  or are they talking about outside in the rain and the ground?  Also, how long does a litre last?  If I only buy 1 am i likely to regret it by the end of the week or will it last me months?  I’ve no concept of how much resion or the other chemicals I’ll want and get through.  I won’t want to be ordering again for a while ideally.

[noyjatatParticipant 16155xp 1]

@blinky465 I am only a few days into doing printing and have seen a couple of posts by your good self. I have done a fair bit of research but only today came across the Prusa slicer you discussed with someone. I got the original photon buddy and am using the Anycubic grey resin. Yeah, I am the same I went in for the Dragon Empire which thankfully keeps growing hehe. I wanted to test a basic model first to see how it went as if they are work as well as this I imagine I would pay the extra to get them all ready supported.

@lawnor that’s right buddy it is pretty much a locked file from what I could tell at a glance but anytime you rescale and tweak you lose all the supports unless it is just to turn around its yaw. Another video I found today through blinky 465 actually was this one of a different slicer, which I like also.

I have since downloaded the required files and am going to do a test of Chitubox Vs Prusa in the next day or two. Initially, I am going for a fairly simple design. You can see a definite difference in the support coding between the two though fro these images.

Chitubox does a lot of supporting off the mini itself which makes for more clean up.

Prusa here has much less support for the base of the anvil which worries me.

Of course with both of these, you can adjust them and I can even run them through the file validator but wanted to do a straight-up test to see how they compare and if they fail.

Not sure about the different resins buddy due to not having used them and only having this up and running a few days. Mine didn’t come through with COSHH or safety data sheets so maybe from the website so you can get the info to run it through a check online. I think its mainly aimed at the disposal process.

I have printed six 25mm bases, a large rams head, a dwarf shield, a third of a dwarf (don’t ask), a large two-handed hammer, and the lion and have used a little less than a third of a 500ml bottle. So maybe 150ml hehe.

If you printed something the size of that lion every day and only had that on the plate, so a single human-size mini I would say you would be using around 30ml of resin so maybe a month. There are parts to the programs that tell you how much resin it will use and you can even put in your resins cost and it calculate how much it cost you in resin to print. The electricity you would have to do yourself.

I have been using meths to clean the plate and bath as it is cheaper and easier to get. I use IPA cleaning the model in a glass jar, I have found that I can use one of the filters that comes with the printer, to filter the IPA itself into a plastic jug and then back into the jar to get rid of the resin particles meaning unless I don’t seal the lid properly the IPA should last a good while.

These are some strong smelling chemicals though so keep that in mind.

Hope this helps buddy, I will say the supported ones are a trial and part of this months Patreon, next months may not have them until they decide if they want to provide minis with them or not.

[lawnor 25928xp 1]

Cheers.  That is a help.  I have some context.  IPA should go a long way.  Meths is common and cheap enough  Buy a litre of each and hope fully I wont have to worry for a long while.  If I want to print a lot or print big stuff I’ll need quite a few litres of resin, but 1 litre should let me get enough of a play to make all my mistakes and still come out with some good results.  If I want to go in to continuous production I’d be looking at 1 litre per month or more.  I should definitley get what I can when/if I order.

1l of anycubic resin costs £42 on amazon.  30ml per 30mm mini approx.  33 minis per litre.  £1.30 a mini printed.  Not sure how they got that dwarf forgesmith down to 40p unless there are cheaper reliable sources of resin.  I suppose the current situation has probably affected prices.

Blinky, got any advice on brands and sources of resin and IPA?

[noyjatatParticipant 16155xp 0]

@lawnor My estimates are really rough buddy, please don’t take them as gospel. The guys will have looked at how much resin it used with that program so they are likely far more right than I am and I haven’t been printing each day which means when I clean the bath out I lose resin that remains and wouldn’t pour. That might be a big part of it and I have likely been overdoing the supports too.

[lawnor 25928xp 1]

Fair enough.  I wonder if there are efficiency savings around how much you load the bed too.

[blinky465 17027xp 2]

I think the supports on Titan Forge (as well as Artisan Guild although they’re done by a different person) are basically medium (Chitubox) supports for the most, then reduced to small/thin for the last bit, connecting to the body. It means that if you’ve a 32mm (heroic) mini and you want to scale it down (Artisan Guild recommends scaling down to 86% or something for “true” 28mm scale) you’ll likely lose some of those super-fine supports.

In their favour, if you just “plop and print” (drop it into your slicer and hit go) they clean up really nicely. You can see from the images above, native supports in Chitubox are pretty chunky and leave some serious pit-marks in your model after removal. I’ve seen a few people have problems with failures on pre-supported models and it’s almost always under-exposure (so users often over-compensate and end up with “soapy” looking minis because they’ve whacked the exposure time up – it’s why I was interested in which printer @noyjatat was using because his prints look really crisp).

I’ve found that Prusa slicer supports are a nice compromise between not too chunky and not so thin they’ll fail. Auto placement in Prusa slicer knocks Chitubox into a cocked hat – Chitu places supports in weird places and often misses the lowest point of a model for a couple of layers (in the file validator, there are quite a few islands for a few layers before the shapes connect to the supports a few layers higher up).

@lawnor – I’m getting around 50-60 minis from a litre bottle of resin though I have done quite a bit of terrain too, so it might be getting more (though I still think the cost estimates in Chitubox are way out). I’ve used Anycubic standard grey and Elegoo ABS-like. Both are really good. I haven’t tried plant-based and I’ve no idea whether prints made with them would still be good in a few years time – I’m dubious. @warzan has tried water-washable resin and said it was hopeless so I’ve not tried it.

I used to put about 400ml of IPA into a glass jar and rinse 3-4 minis at a time in it (depending on size). It goes cloudy after a few uses, but can be filtered five or six times before I give up on it completely – I reckon I must have replaced it roughly each litre bottle of resin I used.

I’ve slowed down printing since resin has almost doubled in price in the last month or so. I used to buy off ebay but it’s substantially more expensive than Amazon at the minute. You can get 1L of ABS-like for about £38 on Amazon (though I’ve noticed people selling by weight now, and since resin is quite goopy 1kg < 1L ) and on AliExpress there are a few sellers in the EU (Poland, Czech Rep) shipping Anycubic resin into the UK selling at around £31/L.

I’ve tried DPM – Dipropylene Glycol Methyl Ether – instead of isopropyl alcohol; I use it both as a bath and in an ultrasonic cleaner. It’s ok. But it leaves the minis feeling greasy and I’m not convinced it’s as good as IPA. So I use it for a first wash, then still drop in what’s left of my IPA for a “final rinse”. I’ve yet to try spirits, but I’ve heard that windscreen wash is very good, so I’m going to try that next time I’m out and about (currently about once a week!)

I load up my plate with 6-8 minis (non-hollowed) at a time. I could probably squeeze a few more, but I like to leave 5-10mm around the edges – the UV light is stronger in the middle but I also reckon that staying away from the edges doesn’t over-stress the FEP when peeling each layer off during printing.

 

[lawnor 25928xp 1]

That’s some useful information.  Thank you.  So for every 2 litres of resin I pick up I should be looking to buy 1 litre of IPA more or less.  I just found 4ish litres in my games room (House mate used to work in chemistry until his lab closed down).  Its been there unopened for a few years but I imagine its fine.  I assume you can’t buy IPA in the supermarket or hardware store.  I guess this is an ebay/amazon job normally too?  Could this be bought in suitable quantities and prices over the counter at a chemists?

I’ve seen a few people mention an ultrasonic cleaner.  Is this just for washing minis or for also cleaning machine parts?  I already have a basic jewellery cleaning one for my airbrush.  Perhaps 3 inches deep and just big enough to lay an airbrush down in.  Will that be enough for whatever its needed for (Washing large models and terrain excluded, unless they come in parts).

There’s also talks of UV nail curing stations.  Is there anything I should be avoiding or looking for on ebay, or just grab any old uv lamp, a roll of tin foil and a card box, coat the inside of the box and put the lamp and minis inside?

You’ll have to feed back on the windscreen wash.  That’s vastly more available than IPA, and I’d guess cheaper.

If those are resin prices right now and they’ve risen, what are you used to paying?  I’m assuming a month after all this is over prices will head back in that direction.

Does anyone have any thoughts on power costs?  Is it no worse than leaving your computer on, or do you see massive spikes when the printer is running?  I should probably google for some 3d printing for noobs videos soon and stop bugging people.

[blinky465 17027xp 1]

I don’t really know what I’m doing with IPA – I just know that it goes cloudy (the dye from the resin stains it, plus you get resin dissolving into the solution). After a few days, the resin sludge all settles in the bottom (of a clear glass jar) and the sunlight tries to cure it (it’s dissolved in IPA so not very successfully). But you can lift it out, like a sludgy gelatine sheet. Every now and again I’ll run the whole jar through a coffee filter. Then when it’s dyed grey and no longer clears, it’s off to the paints/spirits drop-off at the local tip. I may be doing it all wrong! Some people get a lot of life out of their IPA.

For power, the machine is simply a UV LED array and a stepper motor and a phone screen. There’s a couple of fans in there too, but they use milliamps of current, so not very power-hungry. Very little power consumption. I’d be amazed if it’s more than 20W or so (have you ever seen how bright an 11W LED is?).

Sunlight is great for curing minis. During the winter I used to put mine under a 36W nail lamp for about 20 minutes each side (I’m building one with a rotating table but at the minute they just go under a regular, unmodified nail lamp). Now we’ve got some sunshine in Brighton, I just stand them on the windowsill and turn them when I remember to!

You can *usually* buy IPA from chemists/hardware stores, but I bought a 5L bottle about three years ago online and have maybe used 2L or so for printing since I got my printer in January. 4L should last you a good while!

I got an ultrasonic cleaner to try out, but in all honesty, I don’t think it’s worth the bother. A 15-20 minute soak in isopropyl with a bit of a swoosh around every now and again cleans my minis just fine. My cleaner arrived with a cracked lid and shattered plastic body – each time I use it, it slowly shakes itself to pieces. Another few goes and it’ll be knackered-  I’m not bothered about replacing it. There shouldn’t be anything to clean on your machine – keep resin spills to a minimum (and clean them up immediately if there are any drips) there’s nothing really that benefits from being cleaned; maybe a spot of silicone/lithium grease on the threaded rod every now and again (but mine came with a generous amount smeared on it and it runs smoothly and silently so I’ve not had to do anything to it).

When I very first started printing, I could get 500ml for about £16 and 1L was around £25. Now I see bottles of 500ml advertised at £25 and a litre for £50 or more! Of course shop around and you can find it cheaper, but the general price trend has been steadily upwards.

The trick is not to over-think it. The hardware is actually pretty basic. If you worry about every little detail, you’ll panic about all the tiny little things that can go wrong. But, with proper use (and even a bit of mis-use) the only thing to be careful with is not spilling resin and not spoiling the FEP sheet on the bottom of your tank. This is a consumable and is expected to fail eventually – everyone has to go through the heartache of replacing their FEP, so it’s no disaster if this happens either. Look after your screen (even this is a consumable and will need replacing after about 400 hours) keep the threaded rod clear, and that’s really all there is to it!

[lawnor 25928xp 1]

I’m sure I’m over thinking a lot of this, but I don’t want to spend hundreds, wait weeks for it to turn up and then discover I can’t do something because I didn’t know I needed a £5 widget or bought the wrong £10 doohickey.  If I hadn’t bought my airbrush in a bundle deal I’d never have known I needed an adaptor between the brush and the hose and I’d have been frustrated by its absence, and annoyed that I would have had to pay more delivery charges too.  Part of me is also looking for a good reason not to buy this big expensive thing I don’t really need, but where’s the fun in that?  Its also good to go in to a large expense with realistic expectations.

So should I be looking to buy spare FEP sheets or screens at the start, or does it come with spares?  400 hours is only 16 days and if some prints can take a few days that’s not very long.

Thank you both for repeatedly answering my questions (I’m sure I’ll have more soon enough), although this is all your fault Blinky.  Until you kindly sent me some bases I considered 3d printing too expensive, not there yet quality-wise, and basically out of reach future tech.  You broke that illusion and now I want to play.  Damn you and your generosity 😉

 

[blinky465 17027xp 1]

I bought spare FEP sheets with my printer. I’ve never yet had to use them (four months and I’m still on my original sheet, so haven’t yet experienced the heartache of changing the FEP!). 400 hours is a typical/minimum screen life – some users have had more than twice this. I think I’m heading towards 300 hours on mine and I’ve not noticed any signs of breakdown yet.

Once you have the printer and some resin, you’re ready to go. Everything else just makes your life easier, though these are what I’d consider essential:

Isopropyl alcohol is almost a must (some people have successfully used turps, white spirit, acetone, even hot water and a toothbrush but I wouldn’t chance it!). A metal scraper for getting your prints off the bed (the type used for fdm 3d printing) – the plastic one that comes with the printer is hopeless) and maybe some loose razor blades (for *very carefully* lifting any failed prints off the FEP – it’ll happen, don’t worry!). You should get the necessary alan keys for setting your print bed level. A couple of glass jars for rinsing your minis are always hand (so you can put the lid on and swish them around).

Lots of kitchen roll. Lots. Then a few rolls more. Newspaper.

A UV lamp is handy when it’s overcast but now we’re heading into summer, your prints will cure just fine in the sunshine (you’ll see them change from a bluey-grey to a dull grey colour as they cure). One of those nail lamps for about £13 on ebay is fine but not an essential.

I tend to load my print plate up with 6-8 minis at a time and just leave it running overnight. Generally setting it going before midnight and I have one of those mechanical power socket timers set to turn off after six hours. It’s not really necessary as once done, it’s only the fan on the printer that’s still running really.

 

I only bought my resin printer on a whim.

I was a little underwhelmed with my fdm printer. It was ok-ish for printing terrain but I’d gone back to scratch building as I hated all the priming and sanding to get rid of layer lines. A resin printer was a game changer for me – it’s got me back interested in the hobby; I’ve even been trying out different painting techniques on my minis and finding it’s ok to make a mess of them (something I’d never do when I was paying £4-£6 per miniature).  After all, if something is a complete disaster, I can always just print another one!

 

[lawnor 25928xp 0]

Metal scraper: Would a fresh wallpaper scraper  or one of those stanley bladed paint scrapers be up to the job?

Razor blades: I assume stanley blades or box cutters would do ok, or are they too fat?

Glass jars: I can start saving old coffee jars etc.  I usually keep one or two in case I need to strip paint.  I guess if the IPA will strip the unset resin it might melt the plastic lid of a coffee jar?

As a cylist every year someone gives me a repair kit so I have a few sets of alan keys already.

Kitchen roll can be got from tescos.  Newspaper can be gotten from free papers, or swapped out for the 1000s of A1 drawings I’ve printed for work and no longer need.

UV Lamp.  Its sunny this week in the UK.  Who knows about next week, and we all know the moment we are allowed out of our homes it’ll be cold and raining again.  Still, it can be put off for later.   Good to know.

I’ve got a few of those timers.  I think I might be afraid they’d switch it off before the job is done, but once I’m comfortable with the run times thats not a bad idea.

The cheapness/disposable nature of the minis is definitely something I’m looking forward to.  One day the toddler is going to want to try painting something.  He’s not getting a £20+ mini or anything I care about.  He can have a mini of his choice printed for him.  Plus we can print and play stuff and it doesn’t matter if clumsy hands smoosh a mini.  I’ll get him mini gaming sooner or later, whether he likes it or not (I see lots of hero quest minis on thingiverse…)!  Still, any ideas if we can strip the paint off them with dettol same as usual, or will dettol damage the resin?  I guess I’ll mess up an early print and I can experiment to find out myself.

 

I hear resin is not all the same and doesn’t behave the same.  Different brands, and even different colours with a range will have different setting times etc (Or something.  Don’t quite know what I’m talking about yet).  I assume this mean that when my tank is running low I cannot top it up with a different colour resin or resin from a different line.  Can I top it up with resin from the same colour and line or do I need to be more careful than that?

Oh, and waste disposal. Does the old resin have to go to the tip or are there other ways?  I don’t drive and I have been known to be lazy.  Not quite sure how far away the nearest tip is or if my office does any chemical disposals.  We might.

[noyjatatParticipant 16155xp 1]

I have to admit to getting a metal scraper and even with care scratching my plate the second time I used it, something you want as smooth as possible so got rid of it and have used the plastic scraper for my last 8 or so prints without any trouble. You can also make the removal a little easier by setting your raft to a skate it means instead a 90 degree angle your scraper is butting up against its more like 40 degrees giving you something to work with. That being said I may have just been lucky.

[blinky465 17027xp 0]

My print plate is scratched up good and proper! I didn’t feel comfortable with the plastic scraper and I’d seen quite a few people had them shatter in use (and the associated photos of injuries put me off being too rough with it!). I’m just using a wallpaper scraper. As @noyjatat says, you can help yourself by printing rafts with sloped sides, which makes getting your removal tool under them easier.

You can top up your tank mid-print easily enough (I’ve had to do it quite a few times after starting a print and forgetting to top up before hitting go – I sometimes do it on a long 6hr+ print too, just to make sure it doesn’t run out mid-print). You can even mix resins that are similar (not so if one needs printing at 6 sec layers and one at 12, but the resins I use print at 9-10sec per layer and I’ve had no problem mixing resins on a 9.5sec/layer print)

The general rule of thumb is you want just enough exposure time to make your resin stable – not so much it “blurs out” the details (over-exposure makes each layer “spread”) and no so little that the supports fail or your print sticks to the FEP instead of the build plate. Every machine is different – you’ll have to find your own settings; lots of people ask online, but resin viscosity is affected by temperature, some machines have slightly stronger LED matrices etc. so you just need to play about and find what works for you.

Once you do, you’ll love it.

Honestly!

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