Poland 1939 – Preparing for 80th Anniversary of World War II

[funbeastsParticipant 23xp 3]

I really enjoyed reading this article. It helped greatly with my essay in ELA. The context is amazing. It also helped me understand why sometimes I am so much more creative and thoughtful than my friends. Thank you!

[oriskany 60769xp 2]

Glad to see this thread still going.  😀

No worries, @yavasa – the video is now in progress.  We also have a live web game, everyone, scheduled for tomorrow at 6PM UK Time / 7PM Poland time.  😀

@jamesevans140 – from what I understand Polish doctrine was still being written / re-written  / experimented with at the time of the German invasion.  I cite the formation of just two mechanized cavalry brigades, and even these were incomplete, but many more were planned.  I also pull this from the writings of Maciej Jomasz in several articles published in Strategy & Tactics: World at War.  So I think writers and historians have a tough time referencing material that is incomplete in primary sources.

The guys I play with are hex phobic.  No one’s perfect.

This is a pity as I love the early war period.  It is the best.  Mid war’s not bad, but any honest look at late war reveals it’s really just a crush of firepower and averages and playing for time.

@funbeasts – I am so much more creative and thoughtful than my friends. I think most of us are on this site.  I mean, why are we talking with each other, scattered across four continents, if “local” friends could measure up?   😀

[yavasaParticipant 4740xp 2]

Yep, we are rolling out our super ultra Pz I and Pz II plus some 7TP’s and TKS 😀 with @oriskany it’s going to be hell of a show of I class weapons 😀

@jamesevans140 as @oriskany has already posted the doctrine was being rewritten at that time. Poland as many other states took the Spanish Civil War experiences as a proof that tanks don’t matter as independent formations but should still be used primarily to support infantry units. When we will go back a little bit in time you can find a country reestablished at Versailles after 123 years under occupation/partition by three of it’s former neighbors. (It’s seems democracy was a bad idea for some reason in the XVIII century <whistles>). So you regain independence in 1918 and you have a country that needs to put together three parts that were governed by three different states and have different currency, manpower, level of industrialization, believe it or not level of corruption, technology and so on and so on… To complicate things a bit the Soviets decide that’s a good time to spread the ideas of communism and start a war with you that surprisingly you win. From this victory you come to the conclusions that: your biggest threat lies in the East, in the East there are bad roads so cavalry is the way to go, armored trains were successfully used so let’s use them again, you prepare for war against Russia not Germany. By 1939 the country spends a lot of it’s budget on militarization but it’s still nothing compared to Germany (well suddenly they are the threat) which has a thriving industry, more citizens, more wealth and is basically surrounding you by slowly tearing apart your neighbors in a peaceful manner.

So, as mentioned above the Poles did not believe in independent armored units on a divisional scale plus they had not enough money to equip those. In 1939 around 805 fighting vehicles in the Polish Army from which only 10% was a part of big motorized units and by big I mean brigade level. 30% was a part of cavalry units (8 brigades from which two have been not fully motorized ), 25% in infantry units, 25% was the reserve and 7% were armored trains. In Polish motorized brigade you could find one fighting vehicle per 100 soldiers. In comparison in German Armored Divisions the number was 1 to 30.

[oriskany 60769xp 2]

Part One of a game play video between myself and @yavasa is now up.

Panzer Leader (Poland 1939) – Sitrep Podcast YouTube Channel

Our small way of remembering the events 80 years ago.

Hope you enjoy!

[yavasaParticipant 4740xp 2]

@oriskany this is really a top notch video. Thanks for the game and see you soon 🙂

[oriskany 60769xp 2]

No worries, @yavasa !  Great game today!  I’ll work up some kind of battle report soon along with Part Two of last week’s game video!  😀

[yavasaParticipant 4740xp 2]

Cool @oriskany It was a really close game and finally we saw some tank vs tank action 😀

[gladesrunnerParticipant 2608xp 2]

I know you both put a lot of effort into historical accuracy, and Oriskany spends hours making sure the maps and counters have a great blend of accuracy and interest, but my favorite parts of the video are the cute music/sound riffs to go with some of the rolls and the comments on the screen that helps non players like me understand what is going on.  Now I can let you guys do all the work and thinking, but I can enjoy the game.

[oriskany 60769xp 1]

Part Two of last week’s game is edited and should be on YouTube sometime tomorrow.  We had some audio issues at the end, I hope everyone will bear with us.  😀

[jamesevans140Participant 2055xp 1]

Thanks @oriskany  and @yavasa for your replies. It would appear that Poland was in a state of flux doctrine wiser.  Most nations have some kind of modernisation happening at this point in time and they were playing around with doctrine looking at the possibilities the new kit offered.  Thanks for pointing out that Poland had no doctrine that would have developed as a result of WW1 and it was unfortunate that they tried to take lessons from the Spanish civil war.  To be far I don’t know of any nation that really got the lessons right from that war.  Even the Germans were only getting as much battle experience for as much of armed forces as they could and only tested a few nodes of blitzkrieg but not any primary ones.

While Poland was concerned with Russia as the likely aggressor to them as you pointed out,  I find it interesting that the German military saw Poland as their potential aggressor.  Most of the large war games held in the 1920’s were based on defence after being invaded by Poland.

Armoured trains and cavalry I believe is getting it right from a practical point at the time.  As you say infrastructure is something lacking across Poland and Russia.  The Russians,  Germans and Finnish make valid use of armoured trains during WW2. The Finnish 8″ rail guns had some notable exchanges with Russian 12″ rail guns.  Then the Russians made heavy use of cavalry to have infantry that could keep pace with their armour throughout the war.

I trend to agree with you @oriskany. The early war we see peace time or policing armies go to war that they are not really prepared for being cash strapped for nearly 20 years in most cases.  We see some quick charges to these armies based on lessons learned or usually not learned.  Finally mid war we see armies rise that most nations wished they started with.  Technology and doctrine have delivered armies to fight this war and can simply brush early war units aside.  Late war to me is a time of fumbling.  Germany had already lost the war and their is nothing they could do to change that.  Some are looking for a new kind of army that can brush mid war armies aside,  but this is not going to happen and will not realistically happen until the 1950s. So it will be updated mid war armies that will finish the job.  Then oddly all sides get evolved is a fad of the super heavy tank.  They consume far more resources for any benefit they delivered.  They start with the Kngtigers that lead onto the Mouse. For the US it is the Pershing but lead to the T-28. The British go for the Centurian and tortoise. We have had a small play with these sledgehammer that are too heavy to lift. They did not give any real benefit and were easily destroyed by the side that had air superiority. While most had front armour that could not be penetrated, their top armour had not improved. Attacking the fuel convoys to keep them running was another way to put these beasts out of action. We put 2 Mouse tanks on the table and ran the best that the British and US could bring to the table. Yes it was impressive the damage that they caused. Basically what they hit was very destroyed. But they were very slow firing. Yes they destroyed 3 fireflies who was out of range to fire back. But neither mouse survived the flight of Typoons. Great a wargame that lasted one turn. For me this is the underlying meaning to late war gaming unless you tone it down to what really clashed most often in late war in which case you are using mid war armies.

[yavasaParticipant 4740xp 2]

@gladesrunner the sound effects @oriskany provides are the best 😀 Great you like the videos. Jim is man of many talents. 😀

@jamesevans140 thanks for the great comment and sorry for a short answer but Poland did take a lot from World War I since many Poles did fight on various sides. For example my grand grandfather did serve in German army, escaped during the battle of Verdun and got into the Polish Legions fought durinng the war with the Soviets. So I would say that Polish military did have a doctrine but mostly based on the 1920 war. Still, they were developing in the 1930’s yet they lacked money to do it properly,

[yavasaParticipant 4740xp 3]

Since @oriskany is struggling with really really bad weather in Florida I will post the second part of our game on his behalf

[jamesevans140Participant 2055xp 2]

I have finally had the time to sit down and watch both videos and may I say a great game guys.  Congratulations on a well deserved win @yavasa.  Your attacks were masterful and your aggression and speed of movement was very in keeping with blitzkrieg doctrine.

@oriskany a brave loss old friend.  I am glad PL holds true to the laws of armoured warfare.  1. Tanks can take ground,  but they can’t build it.

I know you don’t agree,  so we will have to agree to disagree,  that I consider Pz-1s and Pz-2s as tankettes.  This battle at leased demonstrated just how compatible they are to the Polish tankettes.  It the PZ-2 had of been armed with a 37mm I would consider it a light tank.

From memory this was the last hurrah for the German Armoured Light Division in its pre-war form. As it was for the 3 fire team squad, which the Germans considered them too hard to manage in combat.  So by the Battle of France they had mostly been replaced by the 2 fire team organisation. It is surprising how much change the German military went through after Poland.  A bloody nose here and there during the Polish Campaign high lighted some of the weaknesses in German organisation and doctrine.

The Polish Campaign is the only large battle of  WW2 were tankette like tanks and tankettes went one on one.  Another thing the game demonstrated in a minor degree that the armoured car replaces and usurped the tankette.  Vehicles of this type by the beginning of the war were only best deployed in armoured recon. Using this type of vehicle as a primary armoured unit was feast approaching its use by date. However we must look at these vehicles and things like the T-60 within a time frame and in this time frame they did well.  It a blink of an eye time surpassed them and they were honestly obsolete. Another issue for them was the amount of 37mm AT guns found even in an infantry division.  Again another weapon system time was about to pass by,  yet in this time frame they could hit real hard.

If I had a partner it would have been interesting to zoom in on some of the battles in this game and replay them in 15mm (FoW). Also after looking into it the Rommel rules with a few modifications is now our official rules for zooming out to look at a battle more holistically with a few exceptions like Kursk.

I certainly hope that you guys will team up and doa few more battles for Poland as I greatly enjoyed this one and it has perked my interest again for this formative campaign. I just wish that I had more time on my hands to do some wargaming in this campaign.

Once again great job guys, more please.  😀

[oriskany 60769xp 2]

Thanks for putting the video up, @yavasa – very sorry I forgot about that.  Indeed, I haven’t been logged in the site very much over the last few days.  The storm’s predictions continue to move away from us.  We’ll be hit, make no mistake, but sideswiped on the storm’s left side (always the better side) rather than a between-the-eyes smack.

I promise more replies later today.

[torros 23808xp 2]

Saw this today

September War Anniversary Bundle

 

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