Please Change my Mind and Point of View

[oriskany 60771xp 2]

“Whatever your meaning or intent if your start referencing peoples behavouir in a negative conatation some people will naturally have a response of does he mean me.”

I appreciate your perspective, @admiralandy .

And as far as “I left before all you cited …”

I am afraid once again that isn’t true.

Honestly I find this entire thread in incredibly poor taste, more than a little passive aggressive, and now frankly, dishonest.

It now bores me.

Before I take off, though, I do offer a solemn “olive branch” assurance.  I’ll still  be hanging out in the chats of the radio show and unofficial hangout on Wednesdays.  I won’t join callers & guests or “raise my hand” to speak, multiple episodes have now demonstrated the futility of that exercise.

But I earnestly, honestly, and solemnly promise I will never snipe, cause drama, or being trouble to those conversations.  You have a Marine’s word on that.  I just still have a lot of friends in those rooms and don’t consent to those being taken away from me the way so much else has.

Goodbye.

 

[panzerkaput 33943xp 0]

I still stand by what I said it is not about you or any one person but a general feeling I had. In fact you have gone some way to enforce that feeling but as they say thats life.

I am not trying to have a fight I wanted to be pointed out I was wrong.

 

[bubbles15Participant 2308xp 1]

I’d point out your own comment:

“…play the same games or even be interested it is, I mean I dislike 40K as the rules suck…”

Such a statement is childish, disrespectful and arrogant.

It insults those people who have worked on the game, the players who enjoy it and contradicts your own post, where you think the fora have become more hostile places. You’re ‘part of the problem’ with that sort of attitude.

Whenever some oaf pops their ‘That’s crap’ or the putrid ‘drekmarines’,

or ‘Well they shouldn’t have bothered’

or ‘showed him up with a hat that’s just as silly as the skelepope…  into a romper suit…’

or ‘…abysmal model that is completely overpowered to encourage sales as even the designer knows its down there with the razor gor in the list of bad models that should have seen the designer sacked…’

or ‘r looks so unbelievable Stupid…’

or… I could go on citing example after pathetic, I’m 14 and think I matter; example

Leaving aside the illiteracy, their cry of ‘I’m entitled to an opinion, and I’ll say what I like’ attitude is the problem. When corrected, the reflexive attack – because, as always, it’s easier to hit back to protect yourself when you’re told you’re wrong than accept you are – few can distinguish between ‘I did a bad thing and *I* am bad, so ego rules everything. The injured child takes over because the injured child has needed recognition. I know for a fact most of the people who spew such retorts on the comments wouldn’t dare say so in real life because they are, at heart, cowards who know they’re wrong.

The truth is that you *don’t* have the right to insult other people’s work, that you *don’t* have the automatic ability to deride and decry publicly just to urinate your own ill-thought out nonsense just to ensure you, great and glorious you are acknowleged as existing!

Where’s this going? You started off complaining about the hostility on the interweb. I’m trying to show you – in your own post – that you’re the cause. We’re – everytime we run down other people’s efforts – the cause.

No doubt someone will complain this is a ‘wall’ of text, because apparently reading is hard now. As usual, what that person means is ‘I am too lazy to read and think, so I will blame someone else.’ You see? Ego. Sadly, this refusal of responsibility and common decency can be seen everywhere.

[panzerkaput 33943xp 0]

Thanks for your reply @bubbles15 and I see what you are saying. Interesting use of paraphrasing but I understand what you are saying. I think that was the point I was making, is what i am perceiving correct or am I the problem. So I guess that maybe I am the problem and issue in the way I am thinking. Interesting food for thought

 

[panzerkaput 33943xp 0]

Do you think reading the whole sentence makes more sense and less insulting?

I mean I dislike 40K as the rules suck, in my opinion but the background and models are very nice, if not to my taste.

Just wondering?

 

[redscopeParticipant 2718xp 0]

I think the pair of you needed your heads knocking together and could have had a chat to sort out this issue. Trying to extented what happened in the radio show to being a wider issue and invite the public who we clearly dont have all the facts to be judge and jury I am not sure what you expect to result in.

I think it boils down to the pair of you being as bad as each other in lack of respect for the other view point. I think a good dose of just saying sorry to each other and looking to find a away to respect each others love of the their aspect of the hobby is in order. In the confines of the radio show it is difficult to manage in a short time everyone to have a view and spend long enough covering topics or beeing broad enough to cover all aspects of the hobby.

Air time on a radio show is perhaps one of the sillest excuses I have seen for 2 people to fall out of in this hobby that you both clearly love. I dont think it requires much more than a little respect and ensure the air time is a little more balance so popular games dont dominate the show and if that does happen we can find a way to express that without attacking that persons hobby.

Now you two hug say sorry and the rest of us can move on 🙂

[panzerkaput 33943xp 0]

I could agree more with you but I dont have an issue with oriskany and the whole post was not about him and me, but yes I agree we do knock our heads together

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 2]

I think the general consencus is that OTT is not an intolerant place, nor is it becoming more so, however I don’t think that is the driver behind the forum topic.  Even if I am correct in that assumption, it is still clear from reading some of the posts that for a number of people it’s more personal than that.

Before I go any further, I want to say this.  I am a big beliver in Hanlon’s Razor, “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance” and so that’s how I will approach this, I suggest we all do the same.  I do not believe for one second that anyone intends or intended any ill will towards anyone else, whether on Wednesday in the discord or via this forum post;  any upset that has been caused is as a result of miscommunication or understanding.  If we agree that as our starting position then I think we can have a much more constructive discussion about community standards, behaviours and etiquette.  If we can’t then I think we’re probably lending some credence to the idea that we are becoming more intolerant.

So rather than beating around the bush with vagueries about whether the community is getting more intolerant etc, let’s summarise where we really are.  We currently have at least one member of the community who feels excluded due to feeling as though they were forced out of a discussion. We also have at least one other community member who feels as though there was a negative reaction to a discussion of a particular subject and feels as though that reaction was unjustified.   Having been in the Discord on Wednesday, having heard what was said I can see how each party has arrived at the conclusions that they have.  None of us can really say what anyone’s intentions other than our own were and all parties have said very clearly that they meant no offence to anyone else, whether via this forum or live on the Discord.  Let’s just believe them or, if you don’t believe them, see above for Hanlon’s Razon – if you can’t prove malice then don’t assume it.  That’s the only way we can really move on to what’s really important – fixing things so it doesn’t happen again.  Rather than people trying to justfy why they feel a certain way or trying to explain to someone why they are wrong to feel the way that they do, I propose a different approach.

1. We forget about why people feel the way they do and we simply accept it as truth; even if we disagree with their reasoning the fact that they feel a certain way is still true.
2. We accept that while we may not have intentionally set out to make anyone feel bad, for one reason or another we did, albeit unintentionally.  Let’s face it, knowing someone didn’t mean to do something doesn’t usually make us feel any better about it.
3. We look whether or not things could have been done differently such that everyone’s experience would have been improved.
4. We then agree to try and do those things in the future to achieve that goal.

People generally don’t change the way they feel based solely on being told they’re wrong to feel that way, if they did counselling wouldn’t need to be a thing.  People will more readily respond to positive experience of something over simply being told, so let’s commit to creating that positive experience even if that means we have to change our behaviours where we don’t feel like we really did anything wrong to start with.  This is what the discussion really needs to focus on;  the more people try to justify their position, the more people feel the need to justify their own.  The more that happens, the more angry and defensive people are going to get and the more personal it starts to feel.  And honestly reading through this forum, it does feel like it’s getting personal for some people.

Some things went wrong on Wednesday in the discord, everyone involved in that played some small part in that.  Accept your own part in it and more importantly accept how other people perceived it, whether that matches your intention or not.  This applies to all parties.  Then we can move on and try to stop it happening again.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 2]

For my part, I wasn’t really involved in the voice chat early on and I didn’t hear everything.  But the same thing happened again later on and think that there was definitely something I could have done, but perhaps wasn’t confident enough to do so (it being my first time in the chat).  I could tell Oriskaney was having connection issues, his audio stream was breaking up and it was hard to hear what he was saying.  As a result people were talking over him.  What could I have done? Well I run virtual meetings at work, recognising that there was clearly some tech issue occurring I could have spoken up, asked people to stay quiet for a few moments to try and allow Oriskaney to get his point across and/or let him know that we were really struggling to what he was saying. I would like to think that, given a bit more time to become a “regular” I could do so, but I was hesistant to make that call on Wednesday. That’s on me and a lack of confidence, I will try and improve that in the future.

Something that we do at work in our meetings is that each meeting has what we call a “bystander”.  Their job is to try and ensure discussion don’t get heated, everyone gets a chance to speak and that we stick to an agenda without going off on tangents.  I think perhaps the Discord chat needs something similar

[totsuzenheniParticipant 5651xp 1]

Could there be a connection testing session in the voice channel to test transmissions and receptions before it goes live? Hand up system? Conch system?

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 0]

If I am being honest the connection issues are not constant – people can be talking freely and clearly and then suddenly drop out.  Part of the problem that I could see was also timing – connections were dropping out randomly and also at really unfortunate times

Connection issue also lie, usually, with the transmitter, not the receivers.  In an open invite situation like the discord chat I don’t think you can really do a pre-test because you don’t know who’s coming.  I mean, you could do that if people had to request in advance to join the voice chat and maybe that’s something we could consider.  However I wonder if Warren would also fail the connection test…

[jamescutts 6924xp 4]

Kind of tried to say out of this topic after that initial contribution but I’ve been following along. In all honesty part of it makes me a little unconfortable and another a little sad. I’m not entirly sure its about the intitial topic, and i think quite a bit migh be miss understandings and timing coincidences. Im hopefuly that maybe voicing some of the issues will help some get back into that happy place.

I’d like to add a comment on a specific thing you mentioned regarding the Discord Chat because I’m hopefuly that that can be resovled as much as the medium alows. By which i take dicord chat to be the Voice /Radio and “text chat” in the chillout bar when theres an Official CoG radio.

Something that we do at work in our meetings is that each meeting has what we call a “bystander”. Their job is to try and ensure discussion don’t get heated, everyone gets a chance to speak and that we stick to an agenda without going off on tangents. I think perhaps the Discord chat needs something similar

Specifically recarding the Offical CoG radio run when Warren is arround i think the complexity of the setup somewhat contributes to the issue, this isnt the falt of anyone just what was avaliable at the time and warrens great production values. This results in a voice channel you join but can’t speak in and a voice channel for callers with anyone who wants to contribute. On the broadcasters side Warren has to join and push up to both of these, possibly not helping connection issues with his 4G, until the shiney fiber cable arrives.

The way callers and guests work anyone can join and speak but its pretty much like any online voice chat, speak first and you win. It can be hard to get attention and join into a conversation. Equally on the official radio’s the text chat is not always that involved in the discussions taking place over voice which is a shame.

The “bystander” approach works great and i think combine that with a move to the stage channels can very much make that more managable, and probably save of some 4g bandwith.

Basically theres a core of the presenters/moderators in the broadcast and guests listen in. The feature that can solve this problem is raising your hand, as above some users have a had raised on their profile stating they wish to speak. A moderator can then let them join the discussion.

With some careful “bystader” moderation and limiting guests allowed to be join and chat this could be a great way of allowing people who wish to speak join in, the key i think is limiting who and how long a guest is allowed in to chat and removing them once the point has been made. This obviously mostly applies when you have more open discussions, if there is a planed specific guest for example I dont think there is as much of an issue.

Similary said moderators could also monitor the text chat and highlight any areas of discussion so that those not wishing to speak can be involved.

Theres some great documentation on how these work here https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005513722-Stage-Channels-FAQ

I very much enjoy for the most part the Official CoG Radio and the unoffical one, theres some topics i dont enjoy tooand occasionally i also join in and contribute. I do very much feel for those that struggle to join the format, due to location, commitments or as previosuly mentioned being talked over or effectivly shoved out. TBH i’m not sure this entirly fits the topic but theres been some discussion around this for better or worse and it seems as good as any time to mention it.

[admiralandy 1647xp 1]

@onlyonepinman I agree and made I think a not dissimilar post which is maybe not being read as end of page 2 and Oriskany reply switched things to start of page 3

FYI @panzerkaput @oriskany

My view in summary is some people are hurting here, in part because of some disruptive element and any baggae they may already have and the effects of the last 14+ months and the pandemic on peoples mental health.

The one party acting on that and in a very confused way tried to reach out which hit a nerve of another in a completly unintential way and the whole thing has escalated to a bit a of a flaming nuclear post, which is all the sadder as that has arisen from a series of misunderstandings imho.

In concerns of the actual issues raised as I can discern them (apologies if I’m missing a point, I’m not the oracle of delphi and can get and judge things wrong, as I think others here may also have).

Concerning the broader question of tolerance. There will always be intolerance which can normally br resolved with education, and a more informed understanding and some empathy. If someone is determined to shut themselves in a little box of ignorance, then simply step away and minimise there impact on others until they are (if ever) ready to listen and engage.

Concerning the issues that maybe on the site, reach out to Warzan and maybe there needs to be a Jackie Weaver option, of at least muting some participants if not actually kicking them from a session. (Probaby means more uk side of things, but a quick google search on youtube for Jackie weaver and parish meetng will soon redress that).

I do feel that the points around the discord thing are more a sympton than a cause, but if its at a point of being some issues then maybe tweaks are required.

Lastly the world is going to hell in a hand basket right now and even coming up and knocking on everyones doors. If this is causing you direct hurt and upset and impacting your mental health, there is help avaliable and its not a stigma to say, I’m getting depressed and struggling with this and need some help. Wether with proffessional services, friends/family or actually just saying that to folks.

Its also not a stigma to say I’ve been a bit of an idiot and said some things I really didn’t mean.

 

[warzanKeymaster 31125xp 4]

Not sure what to add to this chaps but wanted to drop in to say I have been reading along 🙂

@jamescutts I’m going to give the stage channel a try for the next one, but I will say the little radio show has been set up to be a one-man show. It’s a really informal CoG get-together for us to chew the fat and listen to some cool music together. It runs late into the evening so it works as best as it can on each side of the Atlantic and really I don’t want to have to ask others to take up roles in it (for moderation etc)

As a one-man show, it has few moving parts and has the least impact on resources and planning etc

Now with it being a one man show, here is my two cents lol

1) It’s supposed to be informal, fun and relaxing – if you are taking it seriously you are on the wrong show.
2) There are a lot of moving parts (technically speaking – running the desk, playlists, monitoring chats and talk and looking for opportunities to push the conversation on etc) to run a little show like this so remember my brain is split between a lot of things going on, not just the topic being discussed.
3) There will always be technical issues and other things that can cause conversations to be broken up, if you rage quit out of the room you are not giving me any opportunity to try and gently guide the conversations etc rage quitting and tantrums are really really unhelpful and distracting as it’s just another layer I’m having to deal with. And again see point 1 – it’s important – if you are throwing a rage during this show its absolutely the wrong show for you 🙂
4) On/Off Topic I try my best to steer conversations etc to keep them relevant, fun, interesting etc – If you just want to have a conversation with another one of the callers go ahead and do that via the PM system in discord. The show should generally be fairly fast flowing and pull in input from around the setup including the chat.
5) Which brings me to the chat, there may be a topic you are not entirely interested in, but please try not to take over the chillout bar with a completely different topic. I’m also monitoring there for input, questions, ideas, opinions etc and heavy side conversations about some other topic complicates that for me.
6) This is the one show we do where you really are basically in my living room. So I would appreciate it if you kept that in mind, again its an informal get-together – heck I sometimes have a tipple with you guys doing it. So imagine us sitting together here having some craic together about gaming and you get the picture. 🙂

[oriskany 60771xp 3]

1. The Radio Show:  I was about to ask when this thread turned into a critique of the radio show, then I realized I am mostly responsible for that with my earlier post.  That was not my intention, but that I can see where it happened, and that it was my doing.  For that, I sincerely apologize.

The examples I cited in my post were meant to demonstrate how vehemently and fundamentally I disagreed (and still disagree) with the original conceit of this thread.  Yes, there is toxicity and intolerance in this community.  Just don’t kid yourselves on the directions in which its flowing, or the people it’s coming from.

Somehow this turned into a discussion of the technical limitations or difficulties of the radio show.  Again, not my intention, but I freely and fully acknowledge it was my fault.

I understand and genuinely appreciate people trying to be helpful.   But we’re looking for a magic technological fix for what is a “people” problem.  A “community” problem.

This is not a subjective opinion, but an objective fact I can empirically prove.  In a recent episode, I was shouted out of a conversation by a gentleman who, in shouting me out of the conversation, said the exact same thing I was trying to say, just two seconds behind me saying it.  He was saying the first words of my statement as I was struggling through the end of it.

Two complete sentences.  Word for word.

Irrefutable proof positive he heard everything I said, and just didn’t want to allow me in the conversation.

This is not a “transatlantic technical” issue.  I wish to God it was, it would be easy to fix.  However, I know it is not.

Furthermore, all this talk and suggestion about technical aspects of the radio show, while (again) genuinely appreciated, only puts more pressure on Warren, which wasn’t the intention at all.  Again, I apologize.

My examples were too specific, perhaps.  But I wanted to put in examples, or people would think I was merely whining.

2.  Other PM Voice Conversations:  If you just want to have a conversation with another one of the callers go ahead and do that via the PM system in discord. – I think I know what you’re talking about.  Understood and taken on board.  😀

3.  The Chat:  Which brings me to the chat, there may be a topic you are not entirely interested in, but please try not to take over the chillout bar with a completely different topic – Okay, that’s a little disappointing.  I mean, I won’t try to “take over” – but if we can’t talk about topics we enjoy there’s really no point is attending the gathering.  I feel like I’ve been invited to an inclusive party, but only if conversation is limited to pre-approved list of topics.  Nevertheless, understoon and taken onboard.

4. Rage Quitting:  Can I gently, respectfully, and politely suggest that we please consider retiring this term?  It’s a little glib, and seems to be used when people would rather to dismiss the person having the issue, rather than look into the issue itself (i.e., “oh, he’s just an angry person”).  Never mind why he is angry.  That can’t possibly indicate a deeper community issues that haven’t been acknowledged, much less addressed, let alone resolved.

I realize there are former community members we all remember to which this term could be more accurately applied, but I’ve said in capital letters at the FRONT of my post that my issues were not with the team in any way shape or form.  In that post and this one I feel I have been vocal in my support of the team.

And speaking only for myself, if I quit, it’s going to be weary exasperation, not rage.

Please don’t change anything on the radio show for my account.  It’s one of the best things in OTT at the moment.

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