Overpriced GW

[wurzzelParticipant 2734xp 0]

@onepinman I think we’re both in agreement on the complaining about the price point. As far as not immediately useable goes Im not suggesting you cant use whatever you want to play 40k, my point was if you want a coherent force say for IG you can’t just buy everything from WA or Northstar you’re going to have to expend time and finances elsewhere to create the units you need such as Sentinels or Heavy weapons ( I know WA have them for Grognards but not for any of their others) at least with GW if it’s in the codex you can probably get it and it’ll fit straight in with the rest of your army. But again it’s “your” hobby and if people want to spend the time converting then they are more than welcome

[cazboab 2397xp 0]

@onlyonepinman , the new kreig are a better point of comparison for more recent alternative kits, but they’re an extra fiver on the rrp, so GW’s offering fares even worse financially…

The harsh reality of it though, is that that’s what GW actually want . They have marketed designed and priced their products as a premium luxury within the hobby. You can absolutely get twice or three times the minis for the price, we can discuss how well or even overly detailed each individual mini is, we can compare aesthetics , and we can argue about which material is best to make minis from (it’s metal, and I’ll fight anyone that says different once I’m over this bout of lead poisoning…) but ultimately GW’s still making enough sales to keep the lights on, and keep squirting out a dozen new plastic kits a month…

[ced1106Participant 6224xp 0]

> Just to throw something else into the mix, GW’s pricing strategy seems to be largely focused on a specific demographic – boys of around school age.

I’ll add whale hunting theory to this. If you’re familiar with the 80/20 rule, one of its aspects is that “20% of your customers will generate 80% of your income”. And if you’re familiar with “freemium” social media games, they’re designed to not just find that 20%, they’re designed to find the 20% of the 20% to make even more money. Often, the original 80% see through this marketing attempt, and don’t understand that they’re not the ones being hunted.

TED talks had an interesting discussion about scams, such as the Nigerian Prince. The emails that are sent out are *not* there to convince everyone to send money. They’re there to find that small percentage that will send money, because, even though it’s a small number, it’s enough to make the effort worthwhile.

Years ago, Dakka had a thread of the GW conventions in the Kirby days (?) where the painting displays were given short shrift, while the convention’s emphasis was selling models to attendees. Anyone on this thread attended these?

Also, while there’s a lot of hate about GW’s miniature pricing, I didn’t see the same level of dislike for their licensed boardgames, RPG’s, and video games (although I don’t really follow videogames).

[onlyonepinman 18063xp 0]

@cazboab in many ways, GW Miniatures are “premium luxury”.  Ignoring anything subjective like aesthetics, the quality if the plastic kits is extremely high. The details are generally nice and crisp and the way they fit together and how the joins are either well disguised or virtually non existent is market leading.  And when I say that I am comparing them to other plastic model makers, not miniature makers.  So yes, I absolutely think GW make amazing models even if I don’t really like the whole Grim Dark aesthetic.  But therein lies the problem;. “Premium Luxury” models are totally unsuitable for mass battle games and are more appropriate in smaller games like Infinity or Necromunda.  For creating large armies you need lots of relatively cheap models for the rank and file and then some more special ones for elite units and characters.  For me that’s the big problem with Games Workshop – they charge too much and expect you to buy too many

[zeker1966 1633xp 0]

So perhaps things are different in the UK but on this side of the pond (USA & Canada) the vast majority of people buying GW products are male and over the age of 25 (or older). Many of the people purchasing GW products have good paying jobs and while the prices may be high they generally don’t balk at making the purchase if it is a game/army they want to collect.

The competitive gamer (which I am not) often purchases the latest hotness and when it gets surpassed they will sell it or put it in storage and move on to the next army. I personally think that’s a bit crazy but who am I to judge. I’ll also note that many competitive tournaments will not allow third party proxies.

The casual gamer on the other hand generally collects because they like the lore and/or models. These collectors will make the purchases they want mostly ignoring the price since it is something they want/need to fill out their collection/army. Yes they could buy cheaper models by a 3rd party but they are buying the models that they want and they can also play games with.

As has been said many times people hobby differently and no one should judge anyone else for how they hobby. I purchase GW products but I don’t purchase every big box release (I’d go broke and I live in an apartment so space is an issue) but at my game club there is at least a few people purchasing the big new releases (usually not the same people each time). I would bet that at least 10 people in my club purchased the latest Heresy box. I thought about it but I controlled myself and may get into it at a later date but I have a backlog of killteam that I should try and get through. (I have a backlog of many other things but I thought I’d stick with the GW backlog)

 

[tankkommanderParticipant 6427xp 1]

Warlord pricing for Blood Red Skies is pretty bad these days. And £6+ for a 15mm plastic vehicle from Battlefront is high as well. GW is selling at a price enough people are willing to pay. When they stop buying then prices will drop.

[onlyonepinman 18063xp 0]

@zeker1966 I don’t think it’s noticeably different in the UK.  Games Workshop’s primary customer is the middle aged man (30+) with a decent job and spare income.  And that’s true regardless of whether they’re competitive or casual – the latter are the majority I would say.

At the end of the day if you like it and you are prepared to pay it then I would say absolutely go for it.  If you aren’t, then don’t.  That’s the very simple message that addresses all of the problems in the original post.  There’s plenty of options available to you, whether you want to play 40k with alternative Miniatures or just want to do something else instead.  And if you are of this opinion then the chances are you aren’t too worried about playing in a tournament or needing to use official Miniatures.

[zorg 18804xp 2]

I’m not sure if the GW prices are as unusual as they once were. other company’s have thing’s for around the same prices. but they may have increased the prices because they can an still be cheaper. than GW but just shop around for what you want at the prices you want.

[onlyonepinman 18063xp 1]

@zorg I don’t really think other companies do charge the same prices, not when you compare like for like.  Sure, games like Infinity or Malifaux might charge a high price for an individual figure but in such games you need only a small number of them to play the game, each model is almost a character in and of itself.  When you compare multi-part plastic Miniatures produced by Games Workshop to similar items produced by 3rd parties, they come in at between two and three times as expensive based on price per Miniature.

The same price difference, or worse, exists when you then compare Games Workshop’s “entry price” (i.e. what do you need to start playing a basic game) to that of other games, which worsens further when you calculate the cost of going from zero to a standard size army (i.e. a 1500-2000 point army for 40k).  I can’t actually think of a single measure of cost against which Games Workshop can make a favourable comparison, they are always the most expensive option, more often than not by a significant margin.

[redscopeParticipant 2718xp 3]

@onlyonepinman you seem to be creating this situation just because it enforces your position. Nobody’s starting point in 40K or AOS is to go out and buy 2,000 point army of the bat. Neither is anyone like to be paying full retail prices for them either.

If you look at the 40k starting boxes heck this started because of the HH one for what you get in the box in terms of quality and number of figures buying it from ontabletop at 144 that is cheap. I dont see how you argue it is not. Yes it is a lot of money but also about 50% cheaper than the retail of the items.

If you want to compare to infinity look at the GW kill team boxes the last one, you get 2 different units, a ton of plastic terrain to use, rules extra for about 100 ontabletop. The kill team starter set is only 55 ish pounds to buy which is amazing value. The last infinity starter set was 100 pounds ?

I am not trying to suggest GW makes the hobby cheap or that we have other options which are fine and cheaper but lower quality. They are just nothing like as bad as some people make out.

I think perhaps what you miss the hobby is more than just playing the game. If you dont care about the quality of the figures you could play any table top game with plastic coloured buttons. You could buy the rules for bolt action and play with poker chips if you wanted to. A large part of the hobby comes in the building and painting that is when the quailty of the minitures does become a more important factor in the choice people make. That is perhaps what people are willing to pay a bit more for.

GW are by no means the most expensive victoria minitures do an amazing range of guard figures they cost around 50 pounds, Ranging heros sisters models in some cases over 100 Euros for 10 figures. Their is often a very clear link in terms of the quality and the price you pay. If another company produced the quality GW did at a cheaper that would be great but at the moment you have to balance quality vs prices when you choose which ones to buy.

 

 

[zorg 18804xp 1]

Yes some of their prices are ridiculous for what you want but with a bit of bigging around for something similar at a cheaper price is the way to go. you only need official figures for tournaments unless you have a jobsworth at your club.

[onlyonepinman 18063xp 1]

@redscope I am not “creating” anything nor am I trying to reinforce my position because I don’t really have a position on this.

I am simply pointing out a simple fact, that being that in almost (this is the key word here, almost) every context, Games Workshop are the most expensive option.  It doesn’t matter whether you are buying a single squad, a beginner set or whether you are buying the full army, the cost is higher if you are buying Games Workshop models.  I am not saying it as a positive or a negative factor – being expensive isn’t necessarily a good or a bad thing.

You can’t compare citadel plastics to Victoria Miniatures or Raging Heroes resin – you would need to compare those to Forge World.  I have, so far, only compared like for like products (so multi-part plastics to multi-part plastics) and in that arena, they come out more expensive nearly every time.  For reference, a squad of ten FW Death Korps is $79, a squad of 10 from Victoria Miniatures is $60.

Is Infinity more expensive that Kill Team?  Possibly yes.  But it’s also metal miniatures and it’s CB’s flagship game whereas Kill team is not GW’s flagship game so it’s not a great comparison.  However, much like Deadzone (see below), once you have bought that starter box, your ongoing costs are comparable because while the miniatures are more expensive (but also, metal, so again probably better compared to other metal or resin miniatures) you don’t have to buy any books.  All the rules are free as is the army builder app.

However let’s look at something that is a perfect comparison – Deadzone from Mantic Games.  Deadzone’s RRP is £25 higher than Kill Team’s, however you get significantly more scenery, I would say that you also get a better quality of scenery as you get actual buildings rather than a handful of barricades and you get a comparable number of models (possibly slightly more in Deadzone).  You also get the rules for ALL Deadzone factions, not just the two teams you got in the box, which means that in the long run, you don’t have to buy more books when you want to try a new faction.  If I want to expand beyond the factions in the box, I can do so for the total cost of £25 for a new faction starter, with Kill Team the price to branch into a new faction is over £60 because I have to also buy a new rule book as well.  So again, Games Workshop are not really coming out favourably on price when you compare them to like for like products.

There’s no point trying to deny that Games Workshop are more expensive than their competitors when they clearly are;  I don’t really think that is the question that people need to ask either.  The only question is, are you prepared to pay the prices GW ask, which is really down to the individual.  For anyone who answers yes, more power to you;  enjoy your hobby.  For those who answer no, there are cheaper, alternative ways to enjoy the hobby – and by hobby I mean wargaming not the Games Workshop definition of hobby.

[redscopeParticipant 2718xp 1]

@onlyonepinman. What I mean by creating the situation you where comparing a 2,000 40k army with Infinity a smaller game size while ignoring GW makes smaller games as well such as underworlds, kill team and warcry. Which the latter two are pretty much same concept and size as Infinity which underminds the point you tried to make because Infinity is more expensive.

I dont know why you mention “flagship” product it has nothing to do with the size or price of the game. Why are you creating a situation in which you think you have to compare flagship products and expect them to be the same price when they are completely different. Nobody else ever does that it makes no sense. Nobody else would expect the price to be the same when the scales of the size of the game are completely different.

You are not even trying to compare like to like. We have in the hobby a range of scales some systems are lower quality and lower price and others better quality and more expensive. GW is not the cheapest and also not the most expensive. I will stand to be corrected but I dont see any other company making the quality GW does at vastly cheaper prices.

Given they account for most of the tabletop models sold in the world it certainly suggest they are not as badly priced as you believe. Everyone wishes we had models cheaper prices for that quality but if a company did that GW would not be selling as well as they do.

 

[onlyonepinman 18063xp 2]

The reason I made comparison between Infinity and 40k is simple – they are both “hobbies” in their own right.  If I choose to play Infinity then collecting and painting Infinity is my hobby, likewise for 40k (and indeed GW do see themselves as a self contained hobby, rather than a part of a wider hobby) and all hobbies have both startup and ongoing costs.  Within that context, Infinity is a cheaper hobby, even though individually the miniatures are more expensive, depending on which miniatures you look at (but I am prepared to concede on average an Infinity Miniature is more expensive than a 40k miniature).  40k requires a high model count and lots of books, Infinity does not.  You can get everything you need for a recommended size (300 point) Infinity force for around £100, the same is not true for 40k – that figure is much higher and is often artificially inflated by the way that they are now distributing rules for armies across multiple books.  Is Infinity more expensive than Kill Team?  On balance, yes it probably is, but for most players, Kill Team is a side show of the 40k main event;  it also means that should you wish to branch further and go into 40k, you have all the additional costs associated with that and you are starting with only a single squad.  Infinity is the “main event” and doesn’t really have much by way of spin offs (Aristeia perhaps? but I don’t know enough about it to be able to talk about associated costs).   However for the most part I have done my best to compare like for like.

• Prices for individual squads
• Startup prices for the hobby
• Price for full size force
• Ongoing costs

I compared like for like products (i.e. multi-part plastic kits to multi-part plastic kits) and I also compared at a “hobby” level (i.e. all the things you need to get involved in something as a game, rather than comparing models to models).  Games Workshop games are simply the most expensive (or one of the most expensive), when compared to something similar, in every category.  Pointing out that they are almost always the most expensive option is just a statement of fact, it’s neither praise nor criticism.  It is no more of a criticism of GW than stating Mercedes Benz are more expensive than Ford is a criticism of Mercedes.  Does being more expensive make the Mercedes a better or worse option than a Ford?  It totally depends on what you need/want/can afford.

(For reference, I currently drive a Jaaaaaag.  Or rather I don’t drive a Jaaaaaag because it’s always broken and I am left wishing I drove a less expensive and less complicated Ford…  The Jaaaaaag is lovely when it works, but it hasn’t actually worked properly since about two months after I got it and we’re still trying to get to the bottom of it.  So what’s better, the Jaaaaag or the Ford?)

I don’t really care about Games Workshop’s prices – I don’t buy Games Workshop products anymore (apart from their washes, which I think really are rather good, certainly better than Army Painter) so I really don’t have a dog in the fight.  On a purely personal level, I do think that the prices they charge are ridiculous but it doesn’t affect me so I can’t really claim to care about it.    I certainly have no expectation that they will reduce prices nor do I necessarily have any particular desire to see them do so – they should charge whatever they think they can/should charge.  What I do care about though, is people bitching about prices when there are plenty of other options out there; especially when you consider that the constant barrage of criticism aimed at Games Workshop and their prices can’t be nice for people who actually like Games Workshop.  Instead of getting upset about models that you think are too expensive, find a different game or different miniatures that are within your price bracket and buy those instead.  I want people to be able to enjoy the wargaming and miniatures collecting hobby;  to that end I can’t make Games Workshop’s prices change but I can certainly advise people not to buy from them if they can’t afford them and also advise them of potentially cheaper alternatives that exist.

If you personally like GW, great!  I hope you enjoy the hobby, I would love to see pictures of your painted models in the same way that I do for anyone else regardless of what they play or collect.  You shouldn’t feel ashamed to like them and support them nor should feel like you need to be defensive about their prices and/or being able to afford/be willing to pay those prices.  Likewise nobody should be resentful towards anyone who does buy GW products either.  You like what you like, you buy what you can afford, it’s all good to me.  But I do think people should be honest about the prices;  Games Workshop’s games (or hobbies) Are pretty much the most expensive wargames to be involved with

[poosh 4207xp 0]

“GW are by no means the most expensive victoria minitures do an amazing range of guard figures they cost around 50 pounds, Ranging heros sisters models in some cases over 100 Euros for 10 figures. Their is often a very clear link in terms of the quality and the price you pay. If another company produced the quality GW did at a cheaper that would be great but at the moment you have to balance quality vs prices when you choose which ones to buy.”

There’s some um “slightly untrue” information in this. Firstly GW might not be the “most expensive” but the point is they are a multi-millionaire dollar company that COULD lower the price if they wanted to. They COULD NOT do annual price hikes if they wanted to. They COULD have NOT raised the cost of their products during a global pandemic when we all were hurting – but of course they did. From July 2015- Jan 2019 (yes, literally you can measure it, the GOLDEN AGE of GW) GW did not engage in the kind of abusive practices they have done before and after, they actually behaved like a normal company.

Victoria Miniatures: From a UK POV Arcadian Guard 10 man RESIN squad will cost $60 which is about £45-49 (the exchange rate seems bad right now) whilst the equivalent Death Korp RESIN from GW will cost you £50.50 for 10 same-sized humans. Keeping in mind the Victoria Minis are multi-part so they should be more expensive than the more linear DKoK. A likewise 10-woman RESIN squad from Raging Heroes will set you back 49.50 euros which is £39.29 right now, again multipart. Resin is expensive granted, and is always going to be quite high due to the quality control involved.

There are ample companies now that produce plastic kits that are just as good quality as the bulk of GW’s model range especially Victrix and Perry and are WILDLY cheaper. Warlord Games are now producing just as good plastics, in fact they arguably have since Gates of Antares; and Mantic now produce just as good plastics (compared to the bulk of GW’s line) now, finally – took them long enough! I’m not including Wargames Atlantic because their plastics aren’t as crisp – yet. All the other companies listed though are producing just as good quality models in at least their most recent releases, granted you’ll get less options I suppose but if Victrix and Perry wanted to compete with GW’s “painters” target demographic they could.

EDIT: Frostgrave’s plastics ARE as good as GW, I forgot but see others have flagged the above! And less prone to breaking thanks to the softer plastic they use whilst retaining just as good detail as GWs plastics,.

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