Midwinter Minis Historical Wargames are not popular because it has Nazi's

[pagan8thParticipant 10875xp 1]

In a long running campaign of Hollow Earth Expeditions that I ran the villains were often nazis… Thule Society, Gestapo, SS… fanatics in order words… nazis are good villains…

Not all germans were nazis. Not all nazis were (or are) german.

In war you have to hate your enemy… or you won’t want to kill them.

Recently bought the Tobruk starter for Flames of War… not because it had no german in it… but because I wanted british instead of americans… downside is I got lumbered with italian tanks instead of the cool german ones…

[onlyonepinman 18064xp 1]

“[Just because] you are the bad guy, that doesn’t mean you are bad guy”

– Zangeif (Wreck-It-Ralph, 2012)

[piersParticipant 25489xp 5]

Reminds me to look at Great Uncles WW2 helmet again.

He must have been an engineer or an electrician as it has lightning bolts on the side….

Ahhh… Poor old Unkle Hermann, still he did love Argentina.

[kiranamida 5791xp 0]

So I decided to hold off until I got a chance to watch the video for myself and sadly… I’m generally inclined to agree.

I can almost see the point that may have been trying to be made around how some people might not be comfortable with it and that playing in living memory may be undesirable for people. I respect that point and agree that people should be given the choice to not engage if they choose not to.

But the broad statements came across that all WW2 gamers that play “the bad guys” should have their moral integrity questioned. Whether intended or not, that’s just a statement made in bad faith.

The knife twists deeper in that my Patreon name appeared on this video. I only started watching MWM about a year ago and, not having experienced anything older brought up here, thought I would get into supporting the channel with the promise of content for other games starting with the 28mm scale-ish Atlus Battle mech.

And then this came out…

[solarParticipant 2781xp 0]

Yeah Ill be honest I never really liked him and found he had that annoying Brit tendency (Im a Brit myself before anyone gets too offended) to come across as slightly condescending and a bit effeminate which I think some of my compatriates seem to think makes you seem intelligent and reasonable when your opinions are just as douchey as the next persons. I havent watched the video but I bet he comes across as if hes trying to be fair whilst simultaneously being an opinionated little toe rag

[onlyonepinman 18064xp 1]

I would be inclined to agree that I have always found him to be more than a little smug but otherwise pretty harmless and a lot of people seem to like his content so, whatever.  Horses for courses.  But in this particular case he doesn’t even come close to sounding fair.  There’s a few token “I’m not tarring everyone with the same brush” comments here and there, but the general tone is that “if you play as the Germans, what does that say about you, hmmm?”

He just comes across as utterly uninformed and perhaps a little taken with paranoia about Nazis.  He even says “let’s not pretend Far Right groups don’t still exist”;  well, here in the UK when you see far right groups (EDL for example) They’re typically English nationalists who are obsessed with the fact the British beat the Germans in two world wars.  If they were interested in Wargames at all (and I doubt they are) They’re probably more likely to play as the British (exclusively, British, not allies)

I won’t speculate as to whether it’s a deliberate attempt to generate clicks and stir up controversy or whether it’s simply misguided opinions about the prevalence of Nazism in today’s society.  His assertions  (or rather insinuations, because he seems to lack the cajones straight up say it, he prefixes everything with “maybe” and “perhaps”) that the historical wargaming in the first instance isn’t popular and in the second instance that the reason for this is because of Nazis are demonstrably wrong.  For a start, WWII represents only a fraction of the overall historical Wargames community – to the best if my knowledge Nazis didn’t take part in Waterloo. As to its overall popularity, you can take a stroll around any non-GW convention and look at what the dominant genres of the demo tables are (hint, it’s not 40k, it’s not even sci-fi).

And asking why Bolt Action isn’t bigger than 40k seems massively disingenuous from a channel that is utterly invested in 40k and for a long time was part of their partners scheme.  He knows full well that GW have spent almost 40 years building up the 40k game and community to the behemoth it is today.  People don’t simply drop that for a different game, no matter how good the rules, lore and/or models might be

[onlyonepinman 18064xp 1]

@kiranamida People do have the choice not to engage if they don’t want to.  Nobody is forcing anyone to play Bolt Action and if Nazis do make you uncomfortable, go play something else.  Sadly it’s not really possible to play WWII Wargames without someone playing a faction that probably committed terrible atrocities seeing as most of the Axis powers did so (as did the Soviets).  In fact, from certain perspectives, the allies also did (carpet bombing?).  So like in most wars (including 40k) there were no truly good guys, even the western allies were not without sin

[kiranamida 5791xp 0]

Exactly, and it’s the double standard of what was stated in the video that has them losing my support. =(

[piersParticipant 25489xp 1]

I wish he do a video where he actually engages with a historical wargamer…

 

If he thinks it’s just the Nazis that are the issue, wait till he sees my Confederate Army, my Romans, my Crusaders, my Vikings…

 

What’s more amusing is how much of GW lore was loosely based on history, especially WW2 for 40K, at times. Those Valhallans look awfully like Uncle.Joe leads them…

[gumbafishParticipant 203xp 0]

This thread is a good reason why I don’t play historical games.

[warcoloursParticipant 438xp 2]

Care to elaborate?

[onlyonepinman 18064xp 0]

40k is absolutely littered with historical themes, and it’s way beyond the obvious historical notes among the Imperial Guard.  Let’s have a look …

The Imperium is essentially the Roman Empire, especially at its height during the Horus Heresy.

The Imperial Religion and the interplay between the Imperium and the forces of Chaos are essentially the medieval Christian church and mythology.

The Eldar and Tau are heavily influenced by oriental traditions (and let’s face it, the Tau are basically space communists)

The Necrons are heavily influenced by ancient Egypt.

Most of these were pretty tyrannical in their day and not above the occasional fit of genocide or mass slaughter.

 

[pagan8thParticipant 10875xp 0]

I know 40k is not historical… but the background to various factions are really brutal and they are a genocidal bunch… there are no good guys in 40k.

AoS is just the same… religious extremists on a crusade… Daughters of Kain fight for the forces of order which is as close to good as you get in AoS… and they are bloodthirsty murderers.

Cosplaying as pretty much any GW faction is dressing up as a xenocidal maniac.

But playing a WW2 reenactment of a battle as a german makes you evil?

Wouldn’t that make someone painting up a B17 as Enola Gay evil?

[tankkommanderParticipant 6427xp 1]

He is entitled to express his opinion however wrongheaded it may be.

I might listen to MM on advice about orc skin shades, but not much else.

[wolfie65Participant 1238xp 0]

Playing WWII – and also WWI – Germans makes you ‘evil’ because the ‘official’ narrative propaganda that started during the Franco-Prussian war of 1870 says so.

I find it sad and rather depressing that so many people just swallow whatever movies, TV, publishing companies and their indoctrinators (code name: ‘teachers’) tell them without checking facts for themselves, without asking any questions, without doing any research that isn’t ‘approved’ by above mentioned entities.

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