Midwinter Minis Historical Wargames are not popular because it has Nazi's

[redscopeParticipant 2711xp 1]

So Midwinter minis made a video which a few other people have been responding to. In this video Guy suggests the reason why historical games are not as popular as say 40K is because someone has to play the Germans or he calls it the Nazi. I should point out the Video sponsor was World of Warships which yes also contains Nazi ships. I guess having moral issues only goes so far and is completely fine if someone is willing to pay you for it ?

I found his video watching a responce to it. During that responce video my view surely perhaps they were mistaken nobody could really think that was true. Or someone could fail to understand that war is never quite as simple as black and white and that indervidual actions of both sides where not as moral as people would wish to think.

However watching his video he doubled down on this view people would not want to play historical games because it was too close to reality and we have family that would have fought in WWII. However games like 40k are okay to represent bad things in games because it did not really happen it is just made up.

So much wrong in the video he made it was difficult to know were to start with it. The idea that all historical wargame is defined by just WWII for a start is short sighted. Or that people wanting to play the German’s side must in same way agree with the ideology at the time. Even if you play the British side some of the ideology such as bombing of dresden would be in serious question.

I think the question why is historical gaming not as popular is an interesting question. I think Guy’s video is an horrific misconception  of the hobby from someone I expected to have a better insight into it.

 

 

[collins 16350xp 2]

I saw this video too and thought that it was all quite naive and yeah I was disappointed by the content and pitch. I wonder whether it is linked to a complete lack of understanding of the time period and maybe linked more to modern internet use of links to nazism (I don’t plan to go into more detail on that as its a very broad and deep topic).

It would be really interesting to see how the video faired on viewing figures and general reception in due course.

[warcoloursParticipant 438xp 4]

As I pointed out in the comments to the above video, the whole question is based on a number of fallacies (including considering Bolt Action a historical wargame…).

To begin with, he is comparing apples and oranges: Warhammer 40K is a game, and historical wargaming is a whole category of which WW2 wargaming is a subsection. It would have been different if he compared WH40K and, for instance, Bolt Action. In that case, the starting assumption that the former is much more popular than the latter would have been correct; on the other hand, the belief that most of the people into wargaming are largely playing WH40K is erroneous, albeit quite common amongst WH40K players. Examining the data collected by the most recent (2022) edition of the annual Great Wargaming Survey held by the magazine Wargames Soldiers and Strategy, it turns out that the most popular wargaming period is actually WW2, with WH40K coming fourth, just as it has been in all the other annual surveys in the past five years… and the whole question he has posed crashes and burns right here I would say… It is quite obvious because, as I said, he is comparing discrete entities: WH40K is a single game, while you have several dozens of WW2 systems. If we consider the whole galaxy of historical wargaming across every possible period things would be even worse…

So not only WW2 is actually way more popular than WH40K, it actually turns out that a lot of people play the Germans, it is probably the most common faction for a number of different reasons: first of all, they are like the French in Napoleonic wargaming, someone has to play them if you want to have a game most of the time, so a lot of players that have more than one faction generally have the Germans as one of them (myself included). Many like playing the Germans because they had a lot of interesting kit and equipment and, unfortunately and especially in some countries, there are also some people who play the Germans because they are actual fascists…

So, at the end of the day, the whole question does not hold: WW2 wargaming is actually more popular than WH40K and Germans are probably the single most popular faction in WW2 wargaming…

[flatbattery 8265xp 1]

I’ve found Midwinter Minis to be quite hit and miss over the years, this one was definitely a miss and came across as uninformed or possibly idealogically slanted. Regardless of my opinion, it was most definitely divisive.

[phaidknott 7023xp 1]

There’s a whole WORLD of historical gaming beyond the tunnel vision of Warlord and Bolt Action (although I’d say Bolt Action is more of a “comic book simulator” than a hard core historical game). Indeed WW2 (and anything later) is such a small slice of our history, it’s such a shame there’s so much focus by gamers in this era. ECW, Naps, Ancients, all of these came be played without a single Nazi in sight.

 

I do wonder however if we had access to Warlord sales data if Warlord have sold more SS boxes than standard Heer boxes. The number of SS camo pattern paint sets is never ending, and books on the SS still remain on the bookshelves of your local book stores (whereas finding a book on Heer or even Allied infantry units is a lot more challenging.

 

I wonder why there seems to be a “set” of wargamers fixated with SS units and regalia. I still remember “Salutegate” (where the organisers were slammed for inviting a SS re-enactment society to the event (after all who DOESN’T want people dressed as SS wandering around London handing out flyers for a wargaming event). They hit the wargaming headlines for selling swastika coffee mugs and even Adolf Hitler mugs as well. They countered the allegations of selling Nazi memorabilia at Salute with the observation that there’s were plenty of stands at the show selling SS units, and even swastika transfers for your models.

 

For me, I’ll never play an SS unit on the table (they fill me with unease that we shouldn’t be glorifying them in miniature form). Heer units yes, although I wonder how many wargamers owning “German” WW2 armies own “basic” Heer army units rather than multiple sets of SS units in various “SS only” camo uniforms and full tank battalions of King Tigers in 28mm.

 

At my old club we had a “in living memory” rule about putting on demo games at shows or public events. Basically if there’s the possibility of someone alive being “triggered” with bad memories at seeing a load of overweight blokes “playing soldiers” with what they experienced first hand, the we will not put on that game. So no WW2, no Falklands, no Desert Storm etc, Down at the club (behind closed doors) we do play such periods (where we know our fellow gamers and if there’s anyone there who does feel ill at ease with gaming a certain period/conflict, so no offence can be caused).

 

Posting about this will raise heckles, and start arguments. Perhaps it far better we just move away from WW2 and enjoy the vast array of other wargaming periods that make up “historical gaming (it’s not just WW2 you know) 😀 .

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 6]

Tell me you don’t know anything about wargaming outside of the Games Workshop bubble without saying that you don’t know anything about wargaming outside of the Games Workshop bubble…

Or, tell me you’re a millennial without saying you’re a millennial…

 

Any more for any more?

[somegeezer 18431xp 3]

He’s done a clickbaity video and yes to my shame I clicked on it. I don’t think he genuinely believes anyone with a German WW2 army is a Nazi but yes it’s crass in the extreme.

I’ve unsubscribed from midwinter minis after this and I’ll gladly call him an arse if I ever run into him. Absolute arsewit!

[sundancer 42903xp 1]

I think the video was poorly constructed on the simple premise that his co host said (and I’m paraphrasing) “yeah, let’s paint Bolt Action but I don’t want to paint the Germans”. This in it self, not wanting to paint or play Nazi Germany is totally fine IMHO.

The rest was a very odd mixture.

Personally I’m not playing any game that is set in recent history (meaning from 1900 up to today) but that is my personal choice. Far be it for me to tell someone “you’re doing your hobby wrong” for playing these games.

Overall the video may have been born from a good idea (Let’s discuss moral implications when playing factions in a game that have done horrible stuff) but was stitched together with a very hot needle and already comes apart at the seams. To much focus on one period of time and one faction. The topic is complicated and loaded with traps, trip wires and deep holes.

My two cents 🙂

[moonunitParticipant 4505xp 1]

So, we can’t play the RAF in Blood Red Skies because of the atrocity in Dresden? Even the British public at the time thought it was too much. War isn’t as simple as Midwinter Minis implied, you aren’t just being “controversial” playing the Germans, it’s all dodgy if you think about it. The trick is not to think about it too much and have fun with your toy soldiers.

[sundancer 42903xp 4]

The trick is not to think about it too much and have fun with your toy soldiers.

I think the opposite should be done: Think about it a lot, be aware of all aspects and still have fun. We, as a society, need to make sure we remember all wrong doings and try to learn from them. I’m not saying you can’t have fun playing Napoleon sacking cities but at the same time you should be aware of what you are doing.

[ced1106Participant 6224xp 2]

As an erstwhile RPG’er, it’s all about the escapism and power trip, and, imo, that would explain the attraction of fantasy miniature games, as well as SF over historicals. I mean, look at those 40K figures — they’re more fantasy inspired than history. Yeah, I get that, with historical miniatures, it’s all about the, well, *history*, but this lacks the power trip escapism of fantasy and sf. Modiphius has an entire “Achtung, Cthulhu” series of adventures and miniatures, and the Indiana Jones RPG had Nazi standees. Then there’s that entire Hellboy stuff. So, yes, Nazi’s are still around, at least as bad guys.

Would anyone *want* to play Nazis? I dunno. Nobody I know plays historicals — but it’s not because of Nazis.

[moonunitParticipant 4505xp 0]

@sundancer Fair point, but I tend to keep my entertainment and real world awareness separate. I’m aware of the past, but put it aside when rolling dice. I know in myself that my playing Germans on a 6×4 doesn’t imply my approval. However, given the current polarisation of modern politics I have far more understanding of how people were enticed into extreme ideologies and the resultant conflicts they led to. That’s another matter however.

[sundancer 42903xp 0]

Fair point, but I tend to keep my entertainment and real world awareness separate. I’m aware of the past, but put it aside when rolling dice.

@moonunit and more power too you for that. The problem is: there are to many twats out there who don’t care at all. And there in lies some inherent danger. You just can’t tell by looking at people how their inner workings are so everybody seems to assume the worst from the get go. And I for my part are guilty of this at times.

[redscopeParticipant 2711xp 1]

To me playing historical wargames is an much deteched from reality as playing a fantasy game. It is not that I am unware of the history behind it but I am not trying to recreate that ideology that lead to the war. That position is No different than playing Space Marines would be trying to create xenophobic imperium of man in 40K universe.

When people say ah but some people do. However that is a problem which sadly exists in society. The fact is yes some of these people play wargames but they also play 40K and fantasy games the problem is hardly unqiue to historical games.

It is certainly not the reason why Historical Wargames are not as popular. This idea anyone who wants to play the German side must support the ideaology is just not true.

Let be honest it is not just tabletop games, the theme of war is popular across vast forms of entertainment films, board games, video games. Some of the biggest video games on the market are based on historical World War II action and real events. It does not stop people playing those.

Guy even had an advert in his video for world of warships which showed him with the Germany WWII ships. Why would it be acceptable to do that in a video game but is somehow a moral issue because it is a tabletop game ?

Tabletop games can be enjoyed as an abstraction that it is about the ideas rather than events that actually happened in the war. We dont have to always bog down the moral complexity of real events to enjoy the game. You could question the whole of humanity and wonder why we find playing any war game interesting be it set in 40K or star wars. The core elements of you trying to kill another living creature is still the case on the table top . Unless you can abstract from that core element that none of this is real you have to ignore the moral aspect to what you are doing.

 

[warcoloursParticipant 438xp 2]

Under this reasoning, any wargame, where dealing death to other living beings is represented, should be considered morally questionable. If that is so, either we are all potential mass murderers (and I don’t think we are: actually I have found wargamers to be amongst the most peaceful people I know), or the whole quandary is meaningless.
War is war and it is never nice, even when you are (in your mind) honoring the efforts of those who fought for a right cause if there ever was one. In this case, we should just all bin our toys and go do something else.

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