LotR revisited – what Peter Jackson got right and what he didn't

[grantinvanman 2210xp 0]

You kids have a happy new year, eh?

 

• This reply was modified 2 days, 20 hours ago by  grantinvanman.
• This reply was modified 2 days, 20 hours ago by  grantinvanman. Reason: reasons

[onlyonepinman 18072xp 2]

@wolfie65 maybe there are lots of things to hate about the Hobbit,  but you do seem to be particularly hung up on the romance story.  Not because it necessarily deviates from the lore, but because you have decided that it’s both totally implausible because apparently no woman would ever find a dwarf attractive and also it’s part of some evil conspiracy to pander to a non existent audience for some nefarious reason other than to sell cinema tickets (which it most certainly did, looking at box office returns).  If you had perhaps focused on some of those other aspects that made the films bad, rather than attempting to explain exactly what women find attractive and tinfoil hat conspiracy theories about pandering to a “certain audience”, I suspect it might be a little easier to take you seriously.

[elessar2590 18209xp 2]

I enjoy the movies but we lose so much of the feel of the story. Just in the Two Towers alone we lose the debate about sleeping vs chasing the Uruks, the Rohirrim surrounding and skirmishing with the enemy camp, ect. Tolkien also beautifully plays with time in a way that just doesn’t work on screen, there’s always enough of it, a character can talk and talk even when they’re in a hurry because you can spend 2-3 hours talking on a journey but you can’t in a movie show that.

For example, Gandalf frees Theoden who then offers Wormtonge a place among the riders which he rejects and Theoden decides to ride out with his men and Eomer and his men to join up with Erkenbrand who is holding the vital Fords of Isen and take the fight to Saruman. On the way they get news that Erkenbrand has been defeated but his forced is scatterred not broken. Gandalf then leaves on Shadowfax (which has a whole backstory of him stealing him in the first place) who rides insanely fast and not only gathers the men but rides to Isenguard and chats with Treebeard. During the battle Hama heroically saves his King “redeeming” him from his two tiny slip ups earlier and making him a symbol of what Saruman did to Rohan. Then to cap it all off when they confront Saruman many of the Riders cheer him and agree with him until Theoden cuts through his voice’s power. In the Books Gandalf makes it abundantly clear that even though he is totally defeated Saruman’s voice alone is incredibly dangerous and powerful.

Compare that to the movie where Theoden only thinks of fleeing and hiding in Helm’s Deep despite the fact that Dunharrow was the traditional place for the Rohirrim to shelter their women and children. The Fellowship call his idea dumb and point out how stupid it is, Eomer has been exiled not arrested which is strange since his crime was taking men away from Edoras and leaving it undefended. Gandalf then rides off to do a job that any messenger could have done and brings Eomer to Helm’s Deep. Then just the heroes go and have a little chat with Saruman who has no voice power whatsoever then gets stabbed and dies at Isenguard denying Frodo the chance to show complete mercy to him three times and have it rejected.

 

Theoden’s death was done extremely well in the movies and it is a brilliant piece of cinema and storytelling. In the books however it is a catalyst for actual events. In the movie he just dies, Eowyn is wounded but nothing actually happens because of it.

In the books Theoden’s death changes the entire battle. Theoden rode out ahead with his guard to kill the Southron Leader and so the bulk of the Rohirrim were still catching up as the Gondorians ride out from the City to join them. When Eomer finds Theoden he is made King and he accepts this with sadness but duty. When he finds the unconscious and barely breathing Eowyn however he goes into a blind rage, this is where the “Death” warcry comes from and he leads the Rohirrim in a reckless and suicidal charge away from the Gondorians and into the Mumaks and Southrons. He gets his force cut off, his back to the Anduin and all the men prepare to die, they have failed because of his greif and rage. Then Aragorn comes along, saves them and they link up with Imrahil and the Gondorians. If he had waited then Imrahil could have shown him that Eowyn wasn’t dead, Forlong wouldn’t have been killed, Duinhir’s sons probably wouldn’t have died ect.

Also in the book Theoden never finds out it was Eowyn who saved him, he says his last goodbyes to Merry and makes Eomer King and his last words are

‘Slowly Theoden opened his eyes. Seeing the banner he made a sign that it should be given to Eomer. ‘Hail, King of the Mark!’ he said. ‘Ride now to victory! Bid Eowyn farewell!’ And so he died, and knew not that Eowyn lay near him.’

“Then suddenly he beheld his sister Eowyn as she lay, and he knew her. He stood a moment as a man who is pierced in the midst of a cry by an arrow through the heart; and then his face went deathly white, and a cold fury rose in him, so that all speech failed him for a while. A fey mood took him. ‘Eowyn, Eowyn!’ he cried at last. ‘Eowyn, how come you here? What madness or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!’ Then without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the City, he spurred headlong back to the front of the great host, and blew a horn, and cried aloud for the onset. Over the field rang his clear voice called:’ Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world’s ending!'”
There’s a bittersweet poetry to that.

TLDR the movies are movies, they show snipped down stories. The books have such a depth, feeling and a completely differently weighted story with completely different themes.

• This reply was modified 2 days, 8 hours ago by  elessar2590. Reason: added details

[wolfie65Participant 1240xp 0]

@elessar2590 – That’s exactly why I have to see the movies as separate entities from the book. Granted, there are things that work in books that cannot be translated onto the screen – and vice versa – but movie makers often do go quite far distorting the source material.

One of the worst examples of this is Notre Dame de Paris (The Hunchback of Notre Dame) by Victor Hugo, an excellent book, originally intended as a criticism of the destruction of  Medieval and Renaissance Paris to make room for the grand boulevards and mansions of the nouveaux riches and nobility.

I have probably seen about a dozen or so different film versions of this story and the only one that sticks fairly closely to most aspects of the book is a 1990s Japanese cartoon…..go figure.

All the others try to turn the story into some sort of twisted ‘love triangle’ type thing, disregarding the fact that, if anything, it should be a love pentacle…..Not to mention completely leaving out several characters central to the original story.

[khusrauParticipant 1169xp 0]

Bravo. I was going to chime in. But you said it.

Someone sounds like they have been listening to some pretty dodgy podcasts featuring men talking about what women want.

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