Home › Forums › News, Rumours & General Discussion › (KS) Ninja Division/Soda Pop out of money for Super Dungeon Explore: Legends
Related Games:
This topic contains 99 replies, has 29 voices, and was last updated by 
-
AuthorPosts
-
February 18, 2019 at 4:54 pm #1350706
Well, the Attorney General of Idaho has decided not to get involved. My reading on his statements was “mismanagement is not a crime, so either show me evidence or I won’t pursue them.”
Other thing- I have seen some folks bashing companies for working with Questron, claiming that they’re a shell for ND.
Questron is a freelance sculpting studio that worked on several ND’s undelivered projects, but they’ve also worked for a lot of other companies’ projects (as freelance sculptors do). Some of the newer projects that they’re involved in have been attacked by claims that Questron is ND (they are not).
I feel that it isn’t fair for them to be targeted like that. There’s no reason to believe that a project Questron is involved in would be particularly risky- they just do sculpting.
February 18, 2019 at 5:25 pm #1350710Just received this today. Kind of suspect after the XLBS yesterday.
Ninja Division Backer Update
Overview
The purpose of this update is to provide both our fans and partners with an update on Ninja Division’s current company status, the status of our outstanding projects, and restate our commitment to the continuation of our popular brands.Operations
StaffIt broke our hearts to let the majority of our incredible staff go at the end of 2018. Their determination in the face of company adversity and their passion for our products kept us going. We look forward to seeing what they do next. Ninja Division is currently staffed by its three owners (who are off salary) and a sales manager who continue to work towards the successful reorganization of Ninja Division and pursue Kickstarter fulfillment options.
Communication
With staff layoffs, we are unable to individually respond to all email and social media posts we receive, and our time is best spent pursuing all available options for the continuance of the brands we all love.
External Partnerships – Licensors
Ninja Division would like to request that backers from all of our outstanding projects direct your questions and inquiries to us. We understand we have not been able to maintain communications with the regularity or presence that communities and projects like this desire, and that we have limited availability while we work on solutions, but the ownership of these projects lies with us. Our outside partners are not able to service refunds, returns, or ship your product.
Kickstarter Updates
Super DungeonAs part of the ongoing development process for Super Dungeon and to satisfy both company and backer expectations of quality, the Super Dungeon Kickstarter project was restructured as below:
The 2nd Edition product which was intended to be a single boxed game with only incremental changes would need to be broken out into three distinct products: Super Dungeon Explore, Super Dungeon Arcade, Super Dungeon Pet Parade.
The Super Dungeon Legends expansion could not meet quality expectations as an expansion and was turned into a standalone product. Requiring significant additional development.
The smaller single expansions would all require redevelopment to be useable with the new changes to the game for the above products.
This restructuring of the project increased development time, development costs, manufacturing costs, and future shipping costs.Super Dungeon then suffered an additional delay in March 2017 when the lead designer for Super Dungeon developed health problems which cut work availability for over six months. To soften the impact, Ninja Division hired a new lead designer in August of 2017 to help continue Super Dungeon’s development.
As of now, Super Dungeon is 95% complete and production ready, requiring only finalization and layout of the Legends core game.
Relic Knights
The Relic Knights 2nd Edition core rules are completely developed. The 2nd Edition Starter Set has been manufactured. However, Ninja Division does not currently have the funds to finish assembly and purchase the finalized product from the manufacturer.
The 2nd Edition Rulebook and Darkspace Calamity Upgrade deck are laid out and ready for production. The Void Break sourcebook has had unit profiles written in preparation of playtesting. Fiction and art were in advanced stages before the company’s status required development to be paused. All sculpts, including non-Kickstarter Void Break units, are sculpted and ready for production with the exception of Relic Knight Zineda.
Starfinder Masterclass
The masterclass project is highly technical, using a proprietary manufacturing technology from our manufacturing partners. Difficulties and delays in getting a quality product and re-engineering of sculpting to meet these demands delayed the initial waves of releases.
These difficulties and delays, in part with stretched company finances, led to us to pause manufacturing to find a solution to meet the financial obligation to release more miniatures. To date, Ninja Division has manufactured and delivered over 28,000 miniatures to backers but has a great many more to complete. All sculpts are fully re-engineered and ready for production.
Way of the Fighter
All game specific products for Way of the Fighter have been fulfilled. Only models, which are not required for gameplay, are outstanding. Production of all non-Super Dungeon crossover miniatures is 50% complete. All remaining sculpts are complete and ready for production.
Financial Disclosure
The Cost Overrun chart below illustrates the revenue collected by Ninja Division through crowdsourced funding, the costs Ninja Division has spent to date, and the total costs required for completion of the entire project through to delivery.
Spend by Project
Below is break down of how funds were spent towards the creation of each project over the course of its current development lifecycle.
Total Fees: Includes fees charged by Kickstarter and the merchant account processor.
Project Development: This includes staff and contractor costs for art, sculpting, writing, graphic design, etc.
Overhead Payroll: Includes payroll for management, marketing, sales, and operations staff.
Overhead Expenses: Includes facilities leasing, marketing costs, office supplies, etc.
Royalties: Royalties paid to licensors and/or developers.
Production: Includes tooling and production costs for KS rewards.
Fulfillment: Includes freight shipping and order handling.
Questions and Answers
Over the past months, we have received many questions and want to provide answers to the most common ones we hear that were not addressed above.Q: What is the relationship between Soda Pop Miniatures and Ninja Division Publishing?
Soda Pop Miniatures is an IP Holding Company that owns the Super Dungeon, Relic Knights, and Takoashi University brands. Soda Pop granted Ninja Division Publishing license rights to develop and publish tabletop games for these brands and use its mark in relation to relevant marketing and social outreach.
Q: Why did you start new Kickstarters before completing outstanding projects?
As studio personnel became free they needed to be moved to new projects. At the time, while projects had been delayed development was still moving at a satisfactory pace and current budgets and projections showed that the new projects were achievable.
Q: Why did you publish other games before completing outstanding projects?
Ninja Division’s portfolio is a mix of internally developed crowdsourced products, internally developed self-funded products, and published 3rd party products in order to have a robust catalog to keep the company moving forward and growing. Development on these products starts months or years ahead of release and by independent teams, thus they were in development prior to and alongside crowdsourced products. Games that had been in development were released as planned.
Q: Is Ninja Division bankrupt/out of business?
No. Ninja Division continues to operate and pursue all available avenues to continue all our brands and provide backers with their rewards.
Q: Will I receive my rewards?
We have not given up. Every day we work towards the goal of delivering backers rewards and the revitalization of the brands and products we have spent a decade creating.
Q: Is there anything backers can do to help?
We respect and thank the fans and hopeful backers who have stepped into the gaps of communication, kept an open mind and worked with us to tamp out wild speculation and overly negative and inappropriate threats and hostility. We are all in the same place as you, eager to see a solution, and eager to find a way forward.
Continue to play! We have provided access to PDF and digital content for players to play games using your existing collections from some of our key Kickstarters. A healthy understanding of our current rules, some in-house gaming, and a little time with your clubs and game stores goes a long way to foster interest and support while we work to get things moving.
Looking Ahead
Despite our current difficulties, Ninja Division continues to doggedly pursue any and all avenues we can to get products to backers and bring new products to market featuring the brands our customers love. To that end, we are currently working under consultation to reorganize Ninja Division in order to better position it for success and secure investment.As we proceed with our reorganization we have had partners and fans with operational, business, and financial acumen help us tremendously. If you have a professional skill set and passion in those areas, we would encourage you to reach out as we are working across various stages of consultation to repair components of our operation. As a bicameral entity, our business has sometimes been separated from our creative skill sets, and this realization makes us not too proud to seek professional assistance to ensure a stable and positive growth into the future.
Once we have concrete information regarding the company, new production, and fulfillment we will post another update. We thank you for taking the time to read through this lengthy announcement, as well as your continued patience.
Go Ninja Go!
February 18, 2019 at 5:37 pm #1350723February 18, 2019 at 5:38 pm #1350724John Cadice had been going on Facebook and talking about things (especially their situation with archon). I’m not sure if the other FB people convinced him that they needed to update their Kickstarters with some sort of update on the whole company.
(By the way, it seems that Archon has produced (possibly) all of the Starfinder and Relic Knights miniatures, but ND has not been able to pay them for it, so they aren’t shipping. Archon seemed open to the idea that ND is finished, and possibly making a deal with Paizo or even sending the RK minis out to the backers from their KS projects).
February 18, 2019 at 5:50 pm #1350735I doubt there is malice here.
Mismanagment and mistakes, definitely.Also note that it is not odd to have radio silence when companies are in a rough spot.
The wrong type of info during such a period can worsen the problem and create a death spiral.
The only odd thing is that they haven’t filed for bankruptcy yet.
You’d think that with zero funds and effectively zero employees that would be the expected result.OTOH once that happens any hope of ever seeing the pledges is reduced to zero.
As such it is a bit of good news.It is interesting to see that Relic Knights is expected to need 3 times the original budget … *ouch*
Good news is indeed that we are only waiting for physical products …The scale makes it tricky to judge what ‘way of the fighter’ did, but it definitely was overbudget.
I must admit that I had forgotten that the minis for this one hadn’t arrived.The cost-to-date charts don’t look wrong. The vast majority of the money directly related to projects reads like standard.
Super dungeon is the definitely looking iffy though.The one thing that makes this tricky is that ND have been licensed these games.
So I’m guessing this construct with their IP-holding company is the one thing that has somehow given them hope that this can be finished ?
I know nothing of how businesses work (and definitely not familliar with American law), so I hope anyone else can shed a light on these numbers.I’d advice anyone to make sure they’ve downloaded any Relic Knight related materials.
It at least gives you a chance to play the game.February 18, 2019 at 6:03 pm #1350743the ninja division/soda pop distinction isn’t going to help them as it was soda pop that ran the KS projects and soda pop that owns the IP so it that goes down ND would be left with rules but no world, minis or art as that’s all based on soda pops IP and relic knights, Super Dungeon etc would be gone
and while it’s not terribly hopeful they are still acting as a publisher for some stuff (eg Doomseekers) which I guess is why they’re still paying a sales manager so some money is coming in so as long as the 3 owners are not taking any of it out in salary profit can go towards fulfilling the KS projects (it’s going to be a slog)
or they might just be able to bring in an investor or loan but that is most likely to happen if they can get to the ‘insert money, product gets delivered stage’ putting money in where there’s still development to do on a project with major overruns already is high risk a can you believe the how much it’s estimated to cost to get to the delivery point
February 18, 2019 at 6:10 pm #1350746Guys let’s drop it..
Either they deliver or obviously there would be malice here: Soda Pop would have known it ran out of money and and would have kept asking 4 more with the excuse of projects that could never be completed. They also would have denied any problem up to when denying was just impossible.
Apart from malice, in Europe this would be fraud plain and simple.Non matter what happens, such a behaviour already damaged Kickstarter, and I believe Kickstarter would be the first actor interested in taking legal action if we all complained formally. After all, it is because of Soda Pop I currently only invest in kickstarters published by proven firms like cool mini or not… mantic… all the others I ignore.
If they DO NOT finally deliver, it means they lied to investors and stole the investor’s money and justifying such a behaviour is not good heart but Stockholm Syndrome. By the same principle I could just come up with 20 renders on 3d studio and walk away with 1 million dollars by just feeding investors bs excuses in order to gain time…
February 18, 2019 at 6:31 pm #1350752I would apply Hanlon’s razor:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
as a comparison, the second Drake kickstarter was IMHO a directly malicious to the first degree fraudulent KS run to cover the debts from the first KS and with no intention to ever deliver, as the shut down that occurred not too long after the funds cleared should prove.
However, the ND situation seems more like clinging on to hope by Ponzi. Yes, I agree it is by definition fraudulent as in they use the raised money to pay older stuff, but I do belive they have the intention to do all of them in the end.
Of course, that they have that intention is not enough. The facts do speak for themselves.
February 18, 2019 at 6:46 pm #1350753Malice or no malice at end of day it doesn’t change fact that they messed up badly and they aren’t even trying to find some way to fix that instead of trying to hide what happened. Incompetence is no excuse for leaving they backers unsure about what is going on and without any way to communicate with company. Cases like this make KS seem riskier than it is and it doesn’t help anyone.
February 18, 2019 at 6:57 pm #1350756I completely agree about this project making Kickstarter seem very risky. More than any other project I’ve seen fail, Super Dungeon Legends seemed quite free of risk (the company and property were well established, and they had delivered two Kickstarters before- both were similar in scope to SDEL).
But I think the evidence is that they’re trying to find some way to fix it- it is just that they haven’t succeeded at all yet. That’s actually the motivation for the radio silence (and it has worked for several other companies that found themselves in this sort of problem).
As limburger noted:
“The only odd thing is that they haven’t filed for bankruptcy yet.
You’d think that with zero funds and effectively zero employees that would be the expected result.OTOH once that happens any hope of ever seeing the pledges is reduced to zero.
As such it is a bit of good news.”So they might file for bankruptcy, but that means that the backers definitely won’t get their stuff. As it stands, the backers probably won’t get their stuff.
I’m not sure how long they can hold on, since it looks like they owe Archon a significant sum, and failed to work out a deal.
February 18, 2019 at 7:57 pm #1350764yes given the communication we all received today they are apparently trying to fix things.
This is if we keep believing they are not lying to us one more time: Legends is 95% done. This is what they say. I do not believe it’ll get to us before 2020 but well… if by next February we still did not receive anything I guess all the arguments concerning alleged stupidity and mismanagement will have to be put aside and we will all have to take action in order to get a refund either from Kickstarter or from Soda Pop.February 18, 2019 at 11:18 pm #1350834Any money we as backers provided is gone.(period)
The graphs make it abundantly clear in their recent update.
You can’t get a refund when there’s no money … and no amount of lawyers is going to fix that.
And when you consider that IRS and the likes of Archon will get their money first you shouldn’t get your hopes up of getting any through legal action either.If the state of ‘Relic Knights’ development status is true then all they need is for an investor to pay Archon and ship the products.
I seriously doubt anyone is mad enough to do so based on the current situation, because they would have to be absolutely sure the games could sell at retail. And I have serious doubts RK could regain the momentum that was lost.
I think the best case scenario we’d be looking at would be :
(1) third party buys the IP
(2) they re-launch the product in Q4 this year at the earliest
(3) existing backers do not get anything that wasn’t printed or as close to done at this time
February 19, 2019 at 1:48 am #1350850Yes- there is no chance of getting a refund. If they had enough money to refund everyone, they’d have enough to go forward with production.
They don’t have the cash, so the question now is whether they’ll pull off some sort of financial miracle and deliver (possibly by selling the company for fulfillment of their promises).
Odds are against them, but all that we can do is wait.
February 19, 2019 at 7:18 am #1350908I think people can be really harsh with these things. The guys behind it no doubt put their lives into their business for years and it is basically destroyed. Backers lost a few hundred dollars — that sucks but it doesn’t even compare.
Ive lost money on kickstarters before. My learning was to not put more money than I can handle losing into a KS. Sometimes I just wait for it on retail.
February 19, 2019 at 8:56 am #1350942James how much money did you loose to these guys? I lost 350 euros because I have been lied to (otherwise long time I would have asked for a refund). We have all the rights in the world to be angry.
Obviously the point is the principle: why does these people not get punished (we are talking almost a 1 million dollars fraud without considering the later kickstarters they kept selling!)? Such a “mismanagement” in the non internet world would have legal consequences, why on heart on kickstarter it does not?
They do not have money? Kickstarter puts the money. If someone does not come up with the money, someone goes to jail.
The fact they lived out of our money and they just walk away as nothing happens is absolutely unacceptable.Concerning Soda Pop, sorry but they are not friends, they do not give a damn about me and I do not give a damn about them. We are not working for them, they are working for us: we are consumers, let’s do the consumers and let’s stop it with this Stockholm syndrome!
-
AuthorPosts
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
