(KS) Ninja Division/Soda Pop out of money for Super Dungeon Explore: Legends

[koldanParticipant 364xp 0]

Good will and faith also does not pay the bills of Archon Studios. Just convincing them, that they get eventually paid is not really helpful. Actually that is an example of using the good will and faith of others.

[senjimakotoParticipant 1374xp 0]

Good will and faith may not pay the bills, but if they’d given us anything substantial in the last 6 months to a year on any of their projects, I doubt they’d be having the backlash or toxic environment that they find themselves in. That lack of backlash would have allowed any new product/projects they are working on to make it to the shelves without much negativity. As it stands now, anything with even a hint of involvement by them or anyone who works for them is being bashed and boycotted. Case for example, IDW’s newly announced Ghostbusters/Men in Black game. Just announced and already has 13 1-star reviews on BoardGameGeek, 8 of which specifically mention Ninja Division by name.

Sadly I cannot foresee any possible outcome for this, delivery or not, that will end with them repairing their reputation and company.

[odinsgrandsonParticipant 4288xp 0]

I agree that the company’s reputation is irreparably damaged.

One thing that Kickstarter does is allow (or force) the process of making products out into the light.

Ninja Division’s biggest property is Super Dungeon Explore- it probably accounted for half or more of their revenue when the company was healthy.  Announcing a new edition and then not releasing it for years sunk that property pretty hard.  While Super Dungeon could (and probably did) make up for losses on other properties, those flailing properties couldn’t make up for losses in Super Dungeon.

One of their biggest problems was fulfilling Rail Raiders instead of Super Dungeon.  The RRI fulfillment was smaller, and I think they were banking on it doing well.  But if they had instead done a partial fulfillment on SDL-  and released one of the two new core boxes for Super Dungeon- then they’d have a healthy core product that might be able to support them through the bad times.

I’m still inclined to think that this is due to miscalculations and mismanagement, and not criminal intent.  I’m not sure that it matters all that much to their backers, though.

[erionParticipant 1323xp 0]

REALLY glad I decided not to back the Starfinder Minis.

I’ve been saying since the beginning that this would end up happening with Kickstarter.  Companies become dependent on the periodic large cash infusions instead of working toward a regular business model.  Kickstarter has now been the death of Hawk Wargames, Spartan Games, Palladium (at least as far as Robotech is concerned) and it seems Soda Pop/Ninja Division.

There are some operations that do all the development up front, then go onto KS basically as a pre-order to work out an initial production run.

I sincerely hope Paizo is able to rescue the Starfinder project and work out getting the models made by Wizkids.  I’d very much like to see those make it to production.

 

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 2]

Kickstarter didn’t kill any of those companies, their own mismanagement killed them.  They took on more work than they could handle, didn’t get their costs correct, failed to allow for contingencies in the event of unforseen circumstances and were ultimately unable to fulfil their promises.  The blame lies with the companies, not Kickstarter; there are many companies thriving on kickstarter and there are some companies now failing.  It’s almost like a normal market place where some companies thrive and some fail.

[limburger 21673xp 0]

I suspect ND underestimated the long term sales potential of their Super Dungeon franchise. So it may not have been the new release that caused problems. They may have been too late creating additional franchises and/or rebooting Relic Knights.

@koldan : of course it won’t. However we do not know how much money they owe Archon Studios and the exact nature of their dispute. It isn’t that rare for companies to try and delay payment beyond the limit that us mere mortals need to adhere to. Maybe it’s just a matter of one more month. Maybe it’s not. Either way I hope we as backers and their customers get more information as and when it is available.

AS has nothing to gain if they drop ND as a customer, because part of their income is from companies buying their services (they won’t ever admit this in public because that isn’t in their best interest  … ).
At the same time without the finished product ND can’t sell …

Given that AS have indicated that they are communicating at the CEO/management level the decision isn’t an easy one.

I hope someone with some knowledge of the financial situations of both parties can give us an unbiased summary of the situation.

[erionParticipant 1323xp 0]

Take things literally, much?

Certainly Kickstarter itself did not put those companies under, but taking on too much work because of kickstarters and struggling to meet the obligations created by kickstarters absolutely did.  They were forced to take actions and make decisions they never would have chosen if they used a traditional funding model instead of KS.

 

[orlandothetechnicolouredParticipant 4380xp 1]

Without knowing the situations involved the KS may have saved the companies (initially) even if they later doomed them, if you remember back to when hawk & spartan went down there were also at least a couple of non KS companies that shut down around the same time (eg Tor wargaming)

the one thing KS does tend to do is have an obvious bunch of people who are loosing out (ie the backers), whereas when it’s a more traditional one it tend to be their suppliers & lenders who are ‘faceless’

[limburger 21673xp 0]

I’d argue that they would have killed themselves with traditional funding as well, unless the investor had actively stopped them from committing to those products. Except that requires the ability to predict the future.

Fact is that they are relying too much on a single property to fund the company and they appear not to generate enough using the rest of their products.

Running a business and making the right choice at the right time is hard.
There’s always someone telling you that you made the wrong choice after you’ve done so.

 

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 2]

@erion I don’t think it taking things literally when you say “Kickstarter has been the death of…”.  The companies mentioned took on more work than they could handle and/or failed to cost correctly.  That could have happened via any form of funding stream.  Kickstarter certainly gave them easier access to the funds but I don’t think that you can level the blame on Kickstarter when so many companies are surviving and even thriving in the Kickstarter market place.

[mertaalParticipant 218xp 0]

Little known fact: Kickstarter rules actually forbid creators from new projects until the previous one was fulfilled.

Obviously it’s not a rule they have any interest in enforcing, which is disappointing, because it would force the kind of caution which is sensible anyway.
I suspect another mid-large name is going to go the same way soon. Using kickstarter to pay yesterday’s bills is playing with fire.

[limburger 21673xp 0]

@mertaal : there is no such rule … or at least none I could find.

This is all they had visible :

https://www.kickstarter.com/rules?ref=global-footer

As a backer one should do their due dilligence and investigate any of their active projects.
Check for cancelled/failed projects, reasons for cancelling, shipping of previous projects, etc.

We shouldn’t need Kickstarter to do this type of research, although it would be nice to have tools to see completion/shipping state. Technically that info is available as backers can check the ‘got it’ box on the projects they’ve backed.

[ratzingerParticipant 52xp 0]

the dungeon legends project is actually not cancelled nor failed.. it is an ongoing project. Ninja Division/Soda Pop is a shameful company obviously and I believe their future in the community is doomed. Apart from this, there must be legal ways to get our money back, I am absolutely sure of that… obviously it would either take a personal time/money investment or a class action against kickstarter or/and Ninja Division.
The point is, at this point in time, we are stil waiting for the project to be delivered.

[orlandothetechnicolouredParticipant 4380xp 0]

if they had any money they’d be shipping stuff for relic knights (wits written is done, the minis are made but not paid for and just need bases ordering and probably printing the book) which would mean they’d have stuff to sell at retail.

sadly there is no money and while legal action might kill the company it isn’t going to let anybody recover any money except the lawyers

[maledrakhParticipant 11996xp 0]

You know, when the attorney gets general involves themselves, it is usually far beyond the point of no return.

It would seem that the company has mismanaged the funds to a tune of several millions of dollars with little or nothing to show for themselves. I for one do not assume there is any criminal intent, but still. The end result for backers is much the same.

At this point in time, I would think that it is safe to assume these projects to be failed.  There is no actual recourse for backers to get their money back after the chargeback period for any credit cards has passed.

In case of a bankruptcy, the backers will be last in line to get anything. In case of another company buying the assets, there will be a clause in the purchase agreement that states that the buyer does not assume any reponsibility for any liabilities (i.e. debts and backer claims). They only buy the assets.

In such cases the new company often make an offer to existing backers to get items at cost or a low price as a goodwill gesture. But that is usually the best backers can hope for, and is contingent on paying more money.

 

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