Help with uniform identification please

[ninjillyParticipant 11673xp 1]

Afternoon all,

A woman at my work has been going through photos as part of a family history project and I wondered if the BoW community could help us track down a uniform. She thinks it might be one of two people so has narrowed it down to either Royal Marines circa 1850s or the London Met Police around the turn of the 1900s. From the sleeve details I going more with the former however it isn’t a time period I know anything about. The photograph was taken in London but there’s no date on it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[torros 23816xp 1]

Going on instinct I would have said the Royal Marines uniform of the period would have a white belt

[suetoniuspaullinusMember 12198xp 1]

Looks like a Zulu War era army uniform to me.

1850s CrimeanWar style was significantly different.

Police wouldn’t have been different colours for tunic and trousers would it?

[torros 23816xp 1]

The stripe on the trouser seems wrong for being police

[oriskany 60771xp 1]

@ninjilly – based on the two choices given, I’m going to hazard a 70-30 guess on the latter, but only by process of elimination, and this is shaky.

One, far more photos were being taken in 1900 than 185o.  😀  So statistics are on our side.  😀

 

For a more detailed look:

The problem with old photos like this is …

(a) they’re black and white, so confirmation of COLORS in the uniform is sometimes tough.

(b) they’re low-res.  What would CINCH this 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt is sharper details in either the belt buckle or especially the small device on his collar.

That said, the device on his collar looks more oblong than circular.  The Royal Marines have a circular device.

Here is a confirmed Royal Marine from an archive of records 1842-1925

A closer look at the collar badge:

Compared to an 1890 photo of a London cop making an arrest.  Check out the device on his collar.  Again, very grainy … but the general shape looks more like the one in your photo.  Also, the jacket seems double lined with buttons, whereas the Marines’ has a single row.

So do NOT “take this to court …” but my 2/3 guess is that the gentleman in the photo is the police.

[torros 23816xp 0]

If someone asked me without giving choices I would have said ACW Union

[damon 7525xp 1]

The collar badge could be a grenade, indicating Royal Marine Artillery

Here it is on an officers collar:

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/71705.html

[somegeezer 18431xp 1]

The Austrian knot and trouser stripe were definitely present in officers’ uniforms in the Anglo Zulu war. I’m not sure how common they were elsewhere, I suspect they were quite common in “redcoat” uniforms of the 19th century though.

[ninjillyParticipant 11673xp 0]

Thanks for the help so far gents, I knew this would be a good place to get some opinions… I also told her that the first ones to comment would be you three 🙂

@oriskany The collar decoration and the sleeves seem to conflict to me. I had clocked that the collar decoration fitted the police police more but all my searching has their sleeves marked with a red and white striped band rather than the braid decoration. There has also been discussion that the collar could be Royal Fusiliers though there isn’t any known connection. As you say though, the fidelity of the photo isn’t helpful.

TBH, it could of course be that the uniform isn’t actually his, perhaps something the photographer would have offered.

[somegeezer 18431xp 0]

The collar badge seems to be quite common. There are a variety of regiments here using that shape

 

[oriskany 60771xp 0]

Re: fusiliers – yeah here was my other question… are we SURE those are the only two choices (Royal Marine or London Police).  You’re right, neither seem to be a good fit.

I would be genuinely surprised I that was a Royal Marine uniform is all I’m saying.  Not impossible, but I would be very surprised.

[oriskany 60771xp 1]

Except … Good spot @damon !  Shit, that MIGHT be it

[ninjillyParticipant 11673xp 0]

Having spoken to her some more if we go with the military gentleman – he was born around 1837 and is listed in one census as a bombardier and in another as being based in the Royal Marines Artillery barracks. Honestly the whole thing has made me realise there’s no way I could start to get into this stuff – it would far too easily become an obsession! It is certainly looking likely that it’s John Owen, her great-great grandfather.

[damon 7525xp 2]

Found another image of RMA circa 1880-1900

Gives some credence to the census listing as a bombardier in the RMA, although the photo shows promotion to sergeant

[Anonymous 0xp 0]

Beards and side whiskers had began to fall out of fashion by the turn of the 20th Century, and a moustache would have been more common if facial hair was wore.  On this alone, i’d guess he is more likely to be 1850s than 1900s and that really doesn’t say police uniform to me.

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