"Golden Age of Wargaming"….perhaps not?

[torros 23820xp 1]

I remember many years ago getting to the Strategy and tactics store in NY. It was an aladdins cave

[oriskany 60778xp 0]

@volleyfireandy – I’d suspect if you broke it down you’d probably have similar numbers of people doing just that as there’s always been.  It’s just eclipsed by the number of people doing other stuff. – That might be true.  😀

Although, I certainly don’t “mind” the marketing (I was just quoting @phaidknott there).  And I don’t mind higher production values in the components.  I spend days drawing hi-res Panzer Leader maps (with streams on Twitch) rather than play on the 1970s “old & busted” geomorphic boards who’s hexes didn’t line up, who didn’t have the hexes numbered because they couldn’t print and publish fine enough in those days, the number of the hex would overpower the hex and you’d be looking at a grid of numbers… the counters were too small, they didn’t come out of the punch sheets well, the printing sometimes slewed off the side of the counter …

I only bring all these things up because a lot of times, “old grognards” like me are dismissed as just being nostalgic.  And I keep saying no, I played “this game” or “that game” last week and to do so I had to create 100s of new virtual pieces because the original pieces were ass.  I know these older games had plenty of warts, I work with them every day so there has been no time for “rose colored tint” to build up on my glasses, especially when it comes to the physical production value of the components.

It’s when the game designers feel the need to build game RULES and SYSTEM that will cater to today’s market.  Too many games come out feeling like Settlers of Catan or Parcheesi or Ticket to Ride or Chutes & Ladders.  I get WHY they have to do it.  It’s just a shame, is all.

For the record, I still maintain there are “torches in the darkness,” more recent games that buck this trend.  I think you and enjoy some of the same games. (Battlegroup).  Also I like Force-on-Force (still the best, I feel, when it comes to true modern asymmetrical warfare), AirWar C21 was another good find from as recent as 2017 (at least the latest edition), Valor & Victory came out in 2007.

I just feel they are the minority whereas before that wasn’t necessarily the case.   Is that because there are fewer GOOD games, or just more MEDIOCRE games by comparison?  Open question, I suppose.

Yep, @torros – I am subscribed to S&T WaW and S&T Modern War (obviously). 😀

[piersParticipant 25489xp 0]

There was an article in a recent WSS issue on this theme I seem to remember…

[ced1106Participant 6224xp 0]

Great thread.

I guess it also depends on how you define wargaming:

* “Hex and chit” games, like the old Avalon Hill games. While I don’t play these games, the only publisher I know of for these games are GMT. Even though Hasbro acquired the AH name, it only did so for Acquire, and didn’t release any “hex and chit” games since.

* “Rank and File” miniature wargames, such as historical games. The Miniatures Page is still around, but not as active as non-historical miniature games. I think it’s worth asking this question on TMP for their POV. FFG dropped their generic fantasy Runewars. CMON is currently supporting Song of Ice and Fire. GW, of course, dropped its Warhammer Fantasy line, replacing it with Age of Sigmar, so mebbe this is a wash. Not sure if Bolt Action games fit here, since I haven’t played them.

* Miniature skirmish games. The original WH40K had five-man 28mm squads. GW also had their 15mm Epic scale miniature games. Relative to each other, WH40K was a miniatures skirmish game, and Epic a miniatures wargame. Epic was eventually discontinued, although may be coming back. Song of Blades and Heroes and now Frostgrave are popular generic fantasy miniature skirmish games. Mantic is currently supporting its Vanguard miniature skirmish game rules.

I would say that Eurogames and, thanks to Kickstarter, miniature boardgames are doing quite well and much better than both “hex and chit” and “rank and file” wargames.

[phaidknott 7027xp 1]

@piers Was that the open letter that Pete from Baccus did on the state of the industry saying pretty much the same thing we are saying here?

Again it’s like we have moved away from modelling a conflict with rules reflecting the period to more “abstract” concepts that we now take as the norm. 28mm now has us playing games where the max range of a rifle is about as far as the model could throw a grenade (to scale). The big/popular ancients sets of rules has Julius Ceasar having a “hero” profile and getting stuck in with multiple wounds and beating up hoards of German Cav.

But we excuse all this as “giving a good game”, and we see the phrase “cinematic” given when unrealistic things happen.

The drive for the realistic game by rule writers seems to have disappeared, and instead it’s seems to be a competition to see who can come up with the most innovative game mechanic (even if it doesn’t really fit into the era that it’s being used in).

It IS the situation with the rules that seems to be the thing that sits ill with me (again this is just a personal opinion). There just doesn’t seem to be the variety of gaming styles/rules that we used to have (yet we have more professional rules writers than we ever did before). Wargames Rules do seem to be moving towards a family boardgame level of complexity (again perhaps this is due to having the professional rules writer who’s remit is to appeal to as many people as possible).

It just feels that we’re getting “dumb” rules because the writers expect us to be dumb perhaps?

But we DO need to see more exposure of types of gaming other than 28mm Skirmish. Is that fact we’re swamped by articles on this due to Games Companies using professional writers to “feed” the magazines/media, or just that indeed gamers are no longer interested in these types of games and moved on?

I dunno, it’s a hard nut to crack. But I do still wonder why I’m using rules written in 1988, and why nothing “better” has appeared recently from the big companies that have the funding to steer market appeal towards certain genres (and they all seem to be producing the same product with little or no variety in concept or scope).

But I do tend to “rant” on, perhaps I need to drink less coffee 😀

 

[phaidknott 7027xp 0]

I do need to add that I’m not saying that their a grand conspiracy to manipulate gamers (with big companies hiring hoards of psychologists). More it’s been an accidental “evolution” of how gaming has developed over the years (and perhaps the trend of the manufactures producing their own rules to accompany their range of figures).

But perhaps we’re not the only ones to be wondering what’s happened to our hobby over the years. After the mention of Pete’s open letter I’ve remembered a few musings by others on the subject.

Joe McCullough

http://therenaissancetroll.blogspot.com/2018/02/is-wargaming-getting-too-easy.html

Pete of Baccus

https://www.baccus6mm.com/includes/news/28mmmyth.inc.php

Alas I can’t find the open letter that Pete did on the difficulties on getting coverage of anything in 6mm with the main Wargames magazines (BTW I have figures in 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, AND 28mm) so I’m not trying to “ban” 28mm gaming (anything but, just the fact that it’s all we usually get to see in the hobby media).

 

[torros 23820xp 0]

I think one of the problems with a lot of current rulesets is that they try and cover too big a period (always a problem with ancients) meaning that they try and release a general set of rules and then try and stick a supplement on top to cover particular campaign or war leaving the gamer with an overall  bland experience

[tobymagillMember 1414xp 2]

Playing devils advocate for a second – isn’t this basically coming down to the fact that crunchy, detailed, reenactment style games have not proved to be the most appealing way to attract shoppers and make money? Inherently this style of game it is an important but niche proposition in the hobby.

I drafted a much longer version of this post going into why i thought this might be, but deleted it due to the risk of it derailing the flow of this conversation. Suffice to say there is a well established recruitment path in the industry at the moment with widely available and visible starter sets, with attractive miniatures, easy to find rules that can be learnt relatively quickly and play out in a few hours.

If you accept this premise (and i am aware others won’t), then why would existing 28mm manufacturers invest heavily in a new direction, which risks undermining their current products and revenue? Particularly when some may have made other scales/genres in the past which have proved to be less popular than their 28mm ranges?

Also potentially more contentiously, where is the ongoing financial incentive for major companies to design a rule set for hobbiests who have proven happy to play games from 20+ years ago and who wouldn’t even need to buy your miniatures to play it with (given the number of companies that make historical and present/near future models, if the rules required models at all).

I think the point i am trying to make (potentially in a ham fisted way) is that for hobbiests who like and are willing to invest time/money into more mass market games or new miniatures, then I can’t think of a time when there has been more options for you. For those that hobbiests that don’t want to do this for whatever reason,  then isn’t there a need to look at what would incentivise companies or amateur hobbiests to create what is desired?

A final point from me – all points above are written and should hopefully taken in good faith. I know I am going against the general thinking of the thread so i wanted to say this is done to try and provide a constructive counter-point rather than just trolling.

[torros 23820xp 0]

@tobymagill

There all  good points you make

[cpauls1Participant 8957xp 0]

Hmmm… I think it’s time to give 28mm scale some much deserved love. I’ve been collecting this scale since it was 25mm, and wasn’t even aware there were other gaming scales out there until the interwebs came along (except for micro-armour). I’d seen the small boxes of 1/72 Napoleonic and Ancient stuff, but they were made from cheap toy soldier plastic and didn’t seem to hold much detail, so I passed them by. 28mm is definitely a painter’s scale, and I’m glad it’s more or less the standard now, as that means I can grab models and bits from a vast number of retailers… without having to buy their milksop rules (in most cases).

This is particularly true of fantasy and sci-fi. I can always find almost exactly what I’m looking for to flesh out an army, and because the models are mostly plastic, I can quickly do mods and swap out parts (not as easy in smaller scales). My near future combat team, for instance, is drawn from a number of sources: the bodies of the soldiers are Eisenkern stormtroopers, but the heads are Puppetswar. Their autonomous mini-gun tractors are Anvil Industry, and I have bits floating around from other manufacturers as required. I’ve also used dolled-up dollar store tanks, alongside GW Rhinos! My alien combat team is made with GW Tau, and walkers from Robotech.

I don’t think 20mm and 15mm readily lend themselves to conversion work, but I’m thinking @piers and @oriskany , among others, probably dabble in that sort of thing all the time. Frankly, I’m intimidated by the smaller scales, and I’m not sure the bits are available in those scales.

I will, however, admit to recently picking up Flames of War 15mm mini’s, and did so for several reasons: I lack space for a new system, wanted to play bigger games, and admittedly, they are cheaper. I am hugely disappointed with the rules (for more reasons than I have time to list), and will probably go back to my Striker rules for any game play, or even the Traveler rules, which have WWII at a tech level 5 or 6 I believe.

I read in one of the posts that with 28mm you can’t have realistic ranges and scales, but the same applies to 15mm, at least in terms of modern warfare. In any game, except maybe 6mm, you’re going to have to compress scales to get everyone on the board and create a reasonable simulation. This gives rise to the 50,000 sq. ft. cottage, but it still looks right on the table.

Finally, in terms of rules, there’s nothing stopping anyone from sticking to the rules they know. I can DM 1st Edition AD&D in my sleep, almost without the screens, and have most of the Battlesystem damage and modifier tables memorized. Same for Traveler. I’m not as familiar with Striker, as there weren’t many sci-fi mini’s back in the day. As I mentioned, my only foray into a new rules set was FoW, and it will likely be my last. I hardly have time for the games I play now, and that goes for painting as well… but I do love painting 28mm models.

[chaingunParticipant 1939xp 0]

@osbad

My contribution to this great discussion was based on the original question, as the question is both objective and subjective.

Reading through this whole thread again and with the latest post added, it would seem we all share a common opinion, all be it expressed in different ways.

My post was showing the newer people to our hobby how far we have come, from late 70s to the present day and yes we have come on leaps and bounds. So to answer the original question, yes we are in a golden age as I feel that we will not see such a giant leap in the future as compared to what we have had.

I do agree with you that back then Wargames were indeed mostly male, I wouldn’t say middle class or older as I never experienced that, as the club where I started had a good mix of age groups. I can remember when I introduced my wife to Wargaming, my closet friends thought nothing of it and we all gamed as equals. But when we went to game at shows it was very uncomfortable and we also experienced this when we went to Historicon back in 2016.

Thankfully I believe these attitudes are changing slowly around the world, but we must continue to encourage women and youngsters to join in and be apart of it for the hobby to survive for the future.

[admiralandy 1649xp 1]

I think we are in a Golden Age of Wargaming as regards the choice and quality of what we have avaliable these days. I remember 30 years ago how me and my gaming friends were all excited about the Games Workshop campaign packs and there cardboard buildings. Now we have such a range with MDFs and plastics scenary and token addon wether its historical or fantasy/scifi.

Also it can be easier to find coverage for some more niche areas in 28mm then 1/72. Right now for mainstream model 1/72 Italeri seem to be quite covering that with there consistent release of battlesets at least few a year.

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Periods.aspx

But try checking out Jacobite Rebellion, ECW or Texan Revolution and they seem to be getting better covergae from Warlord and Boothill Miniatures for instance. Even the FIW doesn’t seem well covered for artillery and calvary as it could be. WWI seems poorly serviced in 1/72 or 15mm compared to 28mm options.

I think the larger issue is the meta of gamers with players like Justin as an example flitting from system to system and 28mm has (generally) a quick hit low model count easy to learn rules to match for the quick turn around required to make a splash in between the next cult game.

Also by saying golden age of Wargaming is that to overlook the gaming dominance of Magic or some of the long standing boardgames – I’ve seen wargaming table sized permanent setups for Axis and Allies, quite a number easy to find examples on youtube.

I think the current trend to 28mm does arise from GW and the number of successful companies producing in that scale in the wake of GW and the now very established Nottingham gaming production belt. The simple fact is GW made itself accessable in a way the other types of rules didn’t. Same with Bolt Action and WW2, I think Battlegroup and Chain of Command are better examples of rules to game this period (apologies to any rules not mentioned in comparison) but they haven’t been as accesable because there wasn’t the same infrastructure. Those 2 have been pretty much cottage industiries as someone referenced about games in the 80s.

It’s interesting that much of the debate seems to be flitting around scale which imo is a rather different question.

If better awareness of other systems would there be more interest I think so which makes things like the Osprey Blue Book wargames a welcome addition although they are often 28mm.

Sorry a lot to say on such a wide range of issues as to what does or doesn’t make a golden age.

[phaidknott 7027xp 1]

“It’s interesting that much of the debate seems to be flitting around scale which imo is a rather different question.”

It’s kind of linked to rules, larger scales mean smaller game scale (hence why there’s so much skirmish/warband rules around at the moment. Sure you can do the refights and battles using 28mm figures but you’d need a BIG table to do so (which is why we’ve seen this type of wargaming fade away).

It was initially 25mm for wargaming back in the 70s, this was the first scale adopted by the manufacturers for minis produced for Wargaming, then 15mm gain popularity as players didn’t always have the big tables needed/or wanted to play big games (plus the figures were cheaper and quicker to paint), then 28mm seems to have swung back into the limelight lead by the availability of the plastic figures (6mm was always there bubbling away with gamers).

And if we look at how the Wargaming press used to cover the games we can see how in the 80s/90 it was about the big (game scale game), refights and orbats. But if you look at a magazine today its about skirmish/smaller (gamescale, by this I mean figure ratio such as 1 figure equals 20 men…if the rules even have the concept). And the general availability/popularity of rules has changed as well with Skirmish gaming leading the ways at the same time 28mm’s surged back into the foreground.

So in a way I do think it all links together, now question yourself. Has this been market/demand led, or have the big companies dominance unintendingly steered gamers towards a certain scale and thus certain types of games over the years?

I don’t feel that we’re in a Golden Age of Wargaming because going to a Wargames show in the UK (which to US people here is basically the Traders Hall with a few display games thrown in) the choice doesn’t seem to be there anymore. The traders shelves are awash with all sorts of 28mm goodness. Same with the rules, other than a few specialised book/rules traders most of the shelves have the popular rulesets produced to accompany said 28mm goodness in one easy and convenient package.

So to new gamers they are steered towards purchasing 28mm and like I’ve said I met gamers who have never heard of 15mm figures before (ok they were fairly new to the hobby). But it’s such a shame they haven’t been exposed to tactical games like Johnny Reb (or a newer alternative) etc without have to seek out the “Dark Cultists of old school gaming”. They can’t find this stuff in the magazines, the Wargames Shows or even online much (unless they know where to go and know the secret password 😀 ).

Is wargaming accessible as a whole? Yes indeed it is, there a lot more gamers about than there used to be…

Are the miniature products better than ever? Yup, the detail on these modern figures ar every good (although with the advent of CAD programs for sculpting I think the posing has gotten awful on some ranges…but that’s another issue).

Is the variety of wargames rules better than ever? Here I start to quibble, yes there lots of good rules out there “British Grenadier” for AWI (but had you heard of it before?). These days if the rules aren’t by one of the big companies, they just don’t seem to get any limelight, and the big companies are into producing 28mm skirmish games (probably following on from the overwhelming success of W40K in propelling a company into a very comfortable fiscal position). So perhaps I need to rephrase my question….

Is the variety of easily accessible wargames rules better than ever? Here I’d have to say no.

Is the variety of types of wargaming better than ever? Here I’d definitely have to say no. Looking round at out local club last week we had 3 games of 40K, 2 games of Star Wars, 1 game of Saga, 2 Bolt Action and a Cruel Seas game. All of these are the big box, easy to obtain games. All of then “skirmish” (well if you count Star War fighters and MTBs as a single man). Whereas in the 90s you probably would have seen 3 games of 40K (it’s always popular) -Skirmish, 3 or 4 Ancients games (15mm) – Rank & File, 1 or 2 Black Powder Games (in mean the era, not the godawful rules) – Rank and File, a historical naval game with battleships (WW1 was always popular at the club) and then a couple of ww2-moderns games – Skirmish.

So the “history” isn’t as popular as before, nor anything not skirmish level. So going to the club recently (probably not the best place to take a poll) I feel the variety of games HAS gone down. Similarly the variety of easily accessable/purchasable games has down down at Wargames Shows.

….and don’t get me started on Kickstarters, we’ll be here forever 😀

 

[torros 23820xp 1]

It was Duncan McFarlane when he was editor of Wargames Illustrated that kicked life back into 28mm with articles and pretty pictures

[chaingunParticipant 1939xp 1]

@phaidknott perhaps your question should’ve been

“for veterans of the hobby, do you feel we are in a golden age”.

and to newcomers “have you found all aspects from scale, rules and terrain accessible”.

I think these would give you the answers you may have been looking for. Regarding shows in the UK, as you will know these are mainly run by the local club and trades have to be invited to attend in order to go.

Also regarding the choice at these shows reflects the current trend in Wargaming. Around 10 or a little longer years ago, GW went in the direction to not have as many sculptors on the books and instead decided to hire freelance sculptors. This meant quite a few people not getting a regular income and so we have seen these people doing their own ranges of figures. Also Warlord Games and Mantic to name only two have also come about from ex GW staff / management. So, going around the shows it’s no wonder the main choice for figures is 28mm based on above and also doing 28mm they are hoping to attract some of the GW customers to our side.

The historical gamers have been having this discussion for as long as I’ve been in the hobby. I can remember going to the Wargames holiday centre and this very discussion I was having with Peter Gilder and his group friends during a private gaming weekend playing Waterloo. ??

Another very important aspect you have missed out is time. Most games today are designed to be played in a given time, which frustrates me as most games are centred around tournaments (which has never been my scene). So this also has an impact on figure scale and the types and complexity of rules produced for them.

@torros

I totally agree Duncan mainly only plays with 25 / 28mm miniatures and this was reflected in the magazine. He also wanted the magazine to emulate White Dwarf as well for our side of the hobby. ?

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