Dreamforge Grav Stug KS Relaunch

[soulsorcererParticipant 1079xp 0]

@nosegoblin I have a business question. You state that this KS is supposed to get you on track with your company. But if there is limited availability to the funded product outside of KS…how will you gain constant revenue to get back on track? Your goal reads like you want ongoing sales but your KS structure reads more like a self contained one off…how does that fit?

[nosegoblinMember 292xp 0]

Because I am aware that a single SKU cannot float a company. I need to build on each success to regain momentum. Those tools will remain in China for one to two more runs so that they can be offered in the next project. After that they come to the US where I can run them without the shipping burden from China.

I will bring stock to the US, but not enough to deal with an overly extended period. Sitting on inventory, paying for warehouse space for an extended time eats significantly into the profits. Shipping prices here in the US are high, I need to ship from China where possible, for as long as it makes sense. When it does, I can complete my production runs here, lowering my cost per kit and use the margins gained to help subsidize the shipping costs to my customers and hopefully into the supply chain.

Its about volume and where to find the tipping point. This is something I will have to watch every month and make the call when there are enough SKU’s when the kits and company have regained enough momentum to justify the switch back to a more traditional model.

 

In many ways it is a self contained one-off.. Each kit will need to stand or fall on its own. If I cannot gain enough support to cut the tools, pay for production and a small profit. Then the kit should not be going into plastic production in the first place…

[limburger 21705xp 0]

@nosegoblin : the one game that got held up that I am aware of didn’t have the CE markings required.
So if you’ve got those then all should be ok, unless things change between now and your deadline. The upcoming Brexit will probably be the bigger issue … that is if politicians on both sides can come to some form of an agreement without dragging this thing forever.

The only thing I don’t like about having to pay those taxes is that I won’t know how much it is … and I’d like to know the total costs up front.  It probably will add to the delay, but as most kickstarters tend to miss their deadline anyway that’s not a big deal (to me). IIRC the last kickstarter that had this it cost me about 30 Euro. I don’t know how much of that was admin cost and such.

I think the bigger companies get better deals with shipping companies so they don’t have to make their backers suffer through this.
As always it’s the little guys who have to suffer the most. 🙁

@bvandewalker you can bet I’m looking at certain issues at the EU election next month … I’m so not a fan of Drunker *eh* Juncker as he manages to make Trump look good. It’s the stupid people voting for the lizards that worry me.

[nosegoblinMember 292xp 1]

I would love to know what the fees look like, not being exposed to them myself I have only what I have gleaned through searching. It ‘seems’ to be (for the UK) an eight-pound admin fee? but I have zero confidence that that is the case and no idea if that fee scales up or down based on the total processed.

No one gets around the tax man, those VAT or import taxes get paid by the backer regardless. The manufacturer will build those costs into their per unit price, you just don’t see them as a line item, so it’s less glaring.

 

If I were to offer an EU friendly campaign, I would need to add more margin to the price than most realize. I must pay to have the shipment delivered to a distribution point at the same cost that is listed on the KS… I can drop ship to save money, but that will delay your rewards by a week or two while it sits on a dock waiting to be bundled with other shipments headed to the destination port.

I must then pay the VAT plus additional fees to the ‘payer of record’, for processing the VAT.

I then pay the transport to the facility that will ship to the destination.

I then pay the distribution point a service fee for each item shipped and the postage required to get it there.

All of that adds up to costing more and adding more time, then keeping it a straight transaction.

 

All those fees will need to be added to the product cost and passed to the consumer.

The difference is that the backer would not need to see it as a line item or deal with paying the RM or tax man.

 

Please feel free to correct me if you feel I am wrong. I would love to learn if there is was way to make this work, I have yet to find one.

 

[torros 23816xp 0]

Paying the VAT in the price of model means those in the UK at least don’t get stung with other admin charges on top of the price of the model unless you order over £135 then you get hit with customs duty as well

[nosegoblinMember 292xp 0]

I get that…. My point is there are fees on the manufacturers side to offer an EU friendly campaign. Those fees add up to much more than the simple VAT and need to be added to the cost to the customer. I went over a few of those in the post above.

 

You never see them, but they are there and you do end up paying for them one way or the other

[limburger 21705xp 1]

@nosegoblin I’ve seen bigger companies ‘share’ shipping with multiple kickstarters in order to safe money … so I understand.

I doubt there is anything you could do at the scale you’re operate unless you happen to have a few thousand backers in Europe.
It’s probably why only the bigger kickstarters manage campaigns that are friendly for backers around the world and even they avoid certain regions.

If you haven’t already done so then you probably do need to talk to a specialist and even they might have problems decoding all the legalese. I’d say it’s probably best to focus on ‘local’ customers first before trying anything at an international level.

EU Import Duties

[tankkommanderParticipant 6423xp 1]

Royal Mail charge £8 admin.

DHL charge £11 admin. DHL are a complete PITA to deal with in my experience.

Add to that the postage and the 20% VAT and the cost of the model here in the UK is more than me just buying another Star Wars Legion official tank model (which is what I would proxy the Grav Stug for).

I can see why this doesn’t make sense for a small KS campaign to be EU friendly.

[avernosKeymaster 33947xp 1]

@nosegoblin I think it’s a corker of a vehicle and I hope it is successful this time around. I even managed to sneak it onto this weeks weekender, so a few more people will get a chance to see it.

[soulsorcererParticipant 1079xp 1]

@nosegoblin Thank you for taking the time to answer! If I understood it right the actual KS is not meant to make significant revenue for the future..only funding the tools for this one kit. With a following KS you will not only fund a new tool/kit but also get much more revenue out of sales of the already existing kit as an add-on. Repeating that with multiple kits to a point that you have an entire range at your disposal to make it available at retail or your shop…is that roughly it?

So to be done in hard plastic you need volume to make it. But if one KS does not fund you will have no sales of previous kits also, right? That looks like a tough combo. Is there no alternative to finance a lower volume production process…like 3d printing/resin ect..that will also make it possible to have ongoing sales regardless of further KS? I have no idea of the pro´s and con´s of those different methods…but I am sure you checked those out too..so I am interested in your reasoning why you chose this way to do it.

 

[nosegoblinMember 292xp 2]

“That looks like a tough combo”

You have that right…. This is without a doubt an attempt to swim against the current.

The reason I am attempting plastic is because I produced plastic before and am attempting to meet the expectations of some of my customer base. Plastic is an incredible material. Light, durable, easily modified and the first choice for many other reasons. But the reality of the cost involved make it a rather silly choice in the volumes that I or most will produce.

 

A ‘snip’ from a post I made last night on the KS comments page:

“I have a fair grasp on many forms of manufacturing minis, from resin to PVC to HIPS. The Kickstarter’s where you see 20-30 different minis are not hard plastic HIPS, coming from milled tooling. They are PVC miniatures with back-filled tools, they are inexpensive and provide reasonable but very predictable results. The cost for that tooling method is DRASTICALLY less than what is required for a kit manufactured in the manner of a more typical polystyrene model kit.

If my products cannot stand on their own, paid in full for tooling, production and a very small profit. Then quite honestly, they should never be made in plastic. The reality is that HIPS plastic tooling is not meant to be used in the way we are using it… Limited runs of 500-1000 units It is meant for, and truly becomes cost effective when you are in the tens of thousands of units produced.

We are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole because you, I, and many others desire plastic. Not because it truly makes sense. I am here to pound on that peg and ask others to pound the hell out of it with me, to see if we can make something damn cool happen.”

The reality is resin is a much wiser choice, hell even PVC would be a much more cost-effective method but given my history in plastics many have, perhaps, unreasonable expectations. I am happy to try, happy to put it before people to help me get it done but there does come a time when you need to stop trying to swim against the current.

[nosegoblinMember 292xp 1]

“@nosegoblin I think it’s a corker of a vehicle and I hope it is successful this time around. I even managed to sneak it onto this weeks weekender, so a few more people will get a chance to see it.”

 

Awwwww Thank you!

 

I appreciate that. I hope we make it as well, I have done what I can and will keep my fingers crossed.

[soulsorcererParticipant 1079xp 0]

@nosegoblin Thanks again for your time and insight…I wish you the best with this and hopefully many more KS!!!

[dreddnoughtParticipant 331xp 1]

In for 3. Time to upgrade my Dust army (even if the scale isn’t exactly right, its close enough) right beside the new heroes and units I am going to add from my second copy of reichbusters.

[bvandewalkerParticipant 2078xp 1]

Well it looks like the VAT talk has run its course (if not I have actually read the law and I think it deserves its own thread) topic can go back to grav tank talk. Yesterday while finishing this latest batch of finales I realized the Grav StuG might  have a possible 40k vehicle it can proxy for right out of the box (if you use the laser cannon) for the greater good:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hammerhead_Gunship

I only say this because I own a some Dreamforge valkir (The guy in the photo below) and they are about the size of Tau stealth suits (actually got samples of  both in the same ebay lot). I also own a devilfish, does anyone know if the Hammer heads the same size as devilfish? (I always thought they where modes of the same vehicle).

 

If it does fill in well I could totally see this as part of a “Human Helpers” Army.

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