Darkest Dungeon: The Board Game – Shipping surcharge

[limburger 21731xp 1]

@ced1106 yeah, the lack of transparency on actual funding can be annoying. I think more than a few videogames (Shenmue 3 and Castlevania reboot?) did effectively use Kickstarter as a marketing vehicle with a publisher (Sony? not sure) providing the actual funding. As such I’m glad that Hasbro didn’t use kickstarter to fund Heroquest …

@pagan8th I have … and let me tell you : the games tend to be the least risky, because unless the creator never did something of that scope/type before things will get done. They may miss deadlines but they will get done.

RPG books (technically still games) tend to be risky if they need to write the actual material. Getting books printed with kickstarter funding is low risk, but you should help them out by proofreading whatever material they send to backers. The good ones do ask for feedback.

Anything with electronics is a big gamble …

Best (and worst) example in my list has been the Mycroft kickstarter.
They needed to get additional funding when their initial hardware concept failed and they had to redo the entire thing from start. As a result they also used a competing platform to gain more funding as well as going one level up towards actual investment. All of this was done with complete transparency towards their backers, although the communication wasn’t always perfect.

However I do not mind  them going that route, because in addition to making the product they’re also running a company that has a very good open source / privacy focus ideal that really needs to exist.  Google and Amazon will harvest your data in order to make a profit. Mycroft is the only privacy first approach to voice assistants.

Mycroft – The Open Source Privacy-Focused Voice Assistant

(off-topic … I really wish more people understood how dangerous voice assistants are that are not privacy focussed …  this was why I backed it and why I would have given them even more money if I had some available … )

I did back a bicycle related kickstarter that I knew going in would be risky as the thing had no equivalent at the price range they were targetting.
(top tip : always check if the product exists … if it doesn’t there’s usually a very good reason … !)

I’ve not done software kickstarters, because they are too high risk. If you’ve ever heard of Star Citizen …
Let’s just say that makes all of this look like child’s play.

[tankkommanderParticipant 6427xp 1]

General comment about KS.

If a company that has multiple projects on KS has failed to deliver on time on any project, is it possible that the company is setting delivery dates they know they cannot meet? Would backers pledge money with real delivery dates 3 years away?

And knowing the real delivery date is 3 years away, should the company not have factored in cost inflation over the development period?

Is it ethical for any community site to publicise KS projects without adding a ‘buyer beware’ notice?

With IP games these projects can pull in non=gamer folks who are not aware of the true nature of KS and some of the companies.

[templar007 52378xp 1]

Quote:: “Is it ethical for any community site to publicise KS projects without adding a ‘buyer beware’ notice?”

 

I think that that should be mandatory.

I still run into people that think, (when backing a Kickstarter), that they are just ordering a game instead of providing money for a company to make a product.  That’s the main thing your doing.

That is why some companies feel that it’s alright to sell products from the campaign to the general public at conventions, (to generate new money), even before they have fulfilled backers orders.

YMMV

[limburger 21731xp 0]

Same can be said about any games prior to release …

Do we really need to tell people to actually think about the things they’re spending money one ?

“Buyer beware” should be a given for anything that has zero reviews of actual physical copies.
And even if reviews exist one needs to be careful that those are genuine reviews …

Kickstarter itself tells people that “it is not a shop” and these days you’ve got to check that “yes I understand that I am throwing away money”. It still doesn’t stop people spending money they can’t afford to burn, because people are stupid.

No system in the world can protect the ignorant from doing things that hurts them because every single system assumes a certain level of intelligence and brain capacity.

@tankkommander factoring cost inflation is one thing.
Factoring in a complete destruction of the entire distribution network is a whole different ballgame.
Predicting what the world will look like in one year is tricky enough under normal circumstances.
How many people accurately predicted Putin invading Ukraine prior to this year ?
Maybe a few peeps in the intelligence agencies … but normal people without access to that kind of data ?

The world has functioned for decades with shipments getting from A to B to be profitable enough for 1$ Chinese crap to make it across half the planet and still be profitable …
No one knew that a pandemic would disrupt that system within a single year or htat shipping companies would be *that* greedy.

People who can predict these things would have been named Nostradamus in ages past.

Not a single shipping company has said : we will only ever charge X$ per container … instead they kept raising prices as high as they could and then some, because they knew they had complete control.

No sane person would have predicted costs tripling …

And the reason is simple : nothing of this nature had happened before … so no one knew how the situation would develop.
All models assumed normal operations.

@templar007 I’d argue that it is logistically impossible and not exactly profitable for companies to not sell stock they have available for retail just so they can deliver the stuff they have already sold. The only companies that can do that are ones that have a means of generating profit that isn’t kickstarter based or that have no retail presence at all.  Economy of scale works against backers.

[templar007 52378xp 1]

@limburger that just makes me NOT want to back anymore Kickstarter projects.

I understand what your saying, but I can’t help seeing it as a slap in the face of the folks who tied up their money for two years or more, (with risk), to read about other folks who risked NO money yet got the product at a convention before the backers received their pledge returns.

[ced1106Participant 6224xp 0]

> RPG books (technically still games) tend to be risky if they need to write the actual material.

I mean, an overseas factory that has delays is one thing. But isn’t writing (and drawing) all just one person, right? I don’t back RPG’s, comics, and books because of the delay, retail competition (plenty of RPG stuff on DriveThruRPG and Humble Bundle) and creative slacking. If there’s a $1 PDF, like Phil Reed, I’ll pick it up because $1 doesn’t matter to me. If everything’s been written, that’s fine, of course.

> I did back a bicycle related kickstarter

Hope it turned out well. I also don’t back “you only need one of them” KS, especially ones with working parts (eg. appliances, painting accessories). The risk is that the project is delayed and something retail will be available cheaper, sooner, and better. I did back the Cobalt Keep paint handle because paint handles were a thing on Reaper for awhile, and it had a light attachment. Works fine, especially if you like messing around with magnets.

> I’ve not done software kickstarters, because they are too high risk.

Same ditto, although since I don’t play video games, I can get whatever through Humble Bundle or something free or inexpensive on Steam. I do see how some game designers best known IP can no longer work on them because the IP is owned by a company they don’t work for, so donating (and I mean donating) to their next “spiritual successor” is a way to thank them.

I also don’t back boardgame-only KS for the same reason you wouldn’t buy a game without a review (used to be “try before you buy”) — even if everything works perfectly, you may not even like the game! Of course, when I did try Gloomhaven, I bought it, but, thankfully, the creator made retail copies available. Yep, I’ll back the GH miniatures KS. 😛

> Would backers pledge money with real delivery dates 3 years away?

Reaper Miniatures did this, and a handful of idio — er, potential backers — said they might not back because of the date. Sheesh! You’re gonna have edge cases when you have thousands of customers I guess.

> Is it ethical for any community site to publicise KS projects without adding a ‘buyer beware’ notice?

IIRC, Before you pledge, KS has a Terms and Conditions or some sort of warning that rewards are not guaranteed. But, yeah, any non-crowdfunding site should acquaint their audience with what crowdfunding is and isn’t — or they won’t have an audience anymore. (Maybe there’s a “Coolest Cooler” article we could dig up.) Also, all those anti-crowdfunders who say “KS is a pre-order” should be smacked on the side of the head for muddying up crowdfunding vs. retailers who have pre-order protection (ie. refunds until the order is shipped), or at least pay for my shipping for my Lasting Tales miniatures. 😛

> And knowing the real delivery date is 3 years away, should the company not have factored in cost inflation over the development period?

They should, but you can’t count on them. I mean, you’ve heard of non-crowdfunding projects, such as government projects, or real estate projects, that go into cost overruns. And stuff like CoVid is entirely unpredictable. So, at best, you try to only back projects by companies that know how to manage projects (eg. CMON, SJG, Reaper), including having sources of outside funds in case of cost overruns. (Typically, this means having an evergreen retail product, which then asks the question why they’re using KS, right?) Or, of course, only back projects with minimal manufacturing, such as .stl’s and PDFs. (But then see my comment on RPG’s! 😛

> I understand what your saying, but I can’t help seeing it as a slap in the face of the folks who tied up their money for two years or more, (with risk), to read about other folks who risked NO money yet got the product at a convention before the backers received their pledge returns.

That’s a definite risk of KS, as well as for the creator. Three years to gain a customer, three minutes to lose one. Unfortunately, plenty of companies that will go bankrupt, financially or morally (is Palladium still around?) will choose this route. I do think that in today’s environment, it’s more important then ever to look for a creator who has a lot at stake and has a high amount of integrity before backing. (Not a big fan of CMON, despite my saying they’re more likely to fulfill a project.) In hindsight at least, you can find examples of creators whose business abilities and attitude towards backers would lead to a failed project (eg. Palladium, Myth, Alex Lim).

[limburger 21731xp 2]

@templar007 I don’t see it as a slap in the face.
In fact I love seeing the kickstarters I backed at retail … so what if I don’t have my goodies yet ?
People can buy and play the thing I helped make into reality.

I back things not because I ‘need’ them, but because I think they need to exist within the market.
As such I see it as an opportunity to help (small) teams make their dreams of starting a business a reality.
The fact that I get something in return is nice, but not essential … I’ve already considered the money ‘gone’ from the moment I backed the campaign. As such I’m not that worried when retail price is lower than what I ‘paid’ for the thing.

I’d even argue that if you’re into kickstarters because of the goodies you get then you should be waiting for the retail instead of taking the high risk approach. And I’d even suggest waiting for reviews instead of buying it at day zero to reduce the risk even further.

[kiranamida 5791xp 3]

Wow, I didn’t think this would generate so much discourse on the nature of Kickstarter.

I agree with @limburger on this one. When you use Kickstarter: you’re not a buyer, you’re not a customer, you’re an investor and sometimes investments don’t pan out.

Syre, there are degrees of handling the situation when it doesn’t (of which this wasn’t the best) but you’re never getting more than promises for your money until the creator comes through, if they come through.

[redscopeParticipant 2718xp 1]

@limburger @kiranamida

The legal position of a kickstart is an interesting one. I know some people view it as an investment or perhaps a donation. However I am not sure that is the case. The payment and contract you agree to is clearly not a donation and even if you invest in something you are entering into a contract in return of something typically a share in company.

Legally when to pay the money, you sign a contract with the 3rd party for the delivery of goods. No matter what the user agreements state they do not act as top trumps for any existing laws.

If they fail to provide the goods it is a Breach of Contract and your legal retail rights still apply so well. I believe this what many people get wrong you still have rights.

The problem in all these cases however is the likelyhood of getting your money back it often limited. It would cost you more in costs to seak legal action than the money you lost. In most cases the company just goes bankruppt then consumers are always last in the queue when it comes to recovery of funds.

Think of like ordering a bespoke table from a company. You agree a contract and a price for said table but they still have to make it. It comes with the same risks, you buying something which does not exist and the final product could be slightly different. You have the same legal protection in that case as you do a kick starter. Both parties are entering into a contract for the delivery of goods or services.

[phaidknott 7023xp 1]

There’s no real legal claim that backers can make against creators due to either a failed project or the contents/price changing. Given the numbers of failed projects on Kickstarter, if there was a way don’t you think backers would have used it by now?

The creators of the Kickstart CAN fail to deliver goods on the project under the terms and conditions. But remember nearly all of them don’t try to aim for that as an objective (everything is in good faith). But a lot of Kickstarters can be an “experiment” on either a type of goods, a way to manufacture etc.

As a backer you are an investor, NOT a customer. So be prepared that things may fail and that fact it’s NOT a discount/pre-order shop (although many companies use it as such). In my mind it would be better if companies DIDN’T create projects on KS using it as a pre-order shop (companies like CMON and even the recent Crooked Dice project here in the UK are guilty of this). And instead it was used for it’s “original” purpose (as a way of crowd funding something that banks/commercial investors wouldn’t touch).

 

[tankkommanderParticipant 6427xp 0]

The campaign page for DD could be seen as setting out the terms of a contract.

I had a look and it states that the product you get might be late and might be different from what is being shown.

It also states that in the event they cannot ship your product they will give you a full refund.

Nowhere does it state they can or will ask for more money.

So it does seem they are in breach of contract. I suppose there might be an argument over ‘cannot ship’ and ‘will not ship’. Certainly the chance of taking action against KS is nil. But if someone is based in France I think they could at least take Mythic to whatever is the equivalent of the small claims court and give it a go to get their money back.

I suspect it may be curtains for Mythic after this debacle. Moving to small games aimed at retail will not bring in anywhere near the sums they are used to getting from bloated KS projects.

 

[blinky465 17028xp 4]

@phaidknott nails it – Kickstart is *supposed to be* about investing and bringing products to life, whereas many companies simply see it as a (relatively) cheap pre-order system for gauging public interest or a channel to sell a product (that may have even raised funding through different means).

If we stick to what Kickstart is supposed to be about, people get less hung-up about failed projects. But the companies who are now failing to deliver on their Kickstarter projects have always treated it like a pre-order store front, and present their campaigns in a similar way – so at the very least, they are misleading “customers”.

In this particular instance, though, it’s the “those games, over there stuck in China, they’re yours” attitude that really sticks in the craw. And the “offer” to store them “for as long as we can” is another example of making out this is a problem for the buyer to resolve. You can’t claim to have “delivered” a project and not then… you know… deliver the product!

Those boxes stuck in China, they belong to Mythic, not the individual Kickstarter backers. Mythic didn’t go to a manufacturer and ask “can you make one game for John, two for Geoff, another one for Sue….”

“They’re made, they’re yours” just looks like a pretty crappy attempt at shifting the obligation/risk onto the customer.

[tankkommanderParticipant 6427xp 1]

They will be sending out storage invoices soon?

 

[limburger 21731xp 0]

@redscope yeah the legal status is weird.
Or rather it is such that the costs of enforcing it is likely higher than the ‘investment’ we make.
It’s probably different once you get to the 5k+$ tiers for projects, but at the sub 1000$ range it is very unlikely.

@phaidknott I think such things never happened (or are very rare) because too few are willing to organize as a group.
90% of comments are people looking to get something done for them. Rarely anyone is going like “join me in my quest to get ‘our’ money back” …
I think ‘class action’ lawsuits are an American only thing, which makes it even less likely to happen on an international level.

[jamescutts 6929xp 0]

This seems to ringing all the alarm bells several of us have been mentioning for a while about Kickstarter, boardgames and Mythic (not mantic who are very different bunch of friendly folks).

First of I think the communication is poor, it does read like a ransom note to some extent, I suspect it risks alienating some backers enough they won’t pay, which is what Mythic really need if the costs are so out of control.

Secondly sympathies go out to those backers affected by this. Sadly though in most countries it is a investment and not a purchase so generally outside usual consumer protection. You all now have a tricky decision to make, invest more and hope or potentially write off your investment.

I’ve said before I don’t think there’s a huge problem with Kickstarter, used as it was originally intended it is a great way to raise funds for new ideas, there’s been great examples of this outside our hobby and some inside it. It’s a great tool for smaller companies too even in the Pre-order style, the likes of the new miniatures from flags of war probably would happen without Kickstarter due to costs.

Kickstarter very clearly states with a huge checkbox required that this is not a purchase and is an investment with no guarantee of a return, I hate to say it but people should really read the small print, or in this case the rather large print Kickstarter use to this effect.

However it’s been abused as a glorified pre order system that removes consumer protections by the likes of mythic for many years, this is exactly what gives it a bad reputation within our hobby.

As for Mythic, I hope this is a wake up call for them. I’ve disliked their model for many years and they are the reason I stopped backing these kinds of Kickstarters a few years ago. If they want to survive as a company they need a major shakeup.

Firstly there need to deliver on time to lessen impacts like this, I can’t think of a Kickstarter mythic has delivered on time and they have loads so this shouldn’t be something they can’t calculate.

Secondly they need to more accurately set funding goals to cover their costs.

Third they need to reassess their “stretch goal” model, nearly every mythic game is huge, with huge boxes and many stretch goals, this adds cost complexity and is heavily hit by shipping. I’ve said this before but the core product of miniatures and board game is good, they should focus on simple boxed games and expand gradually from a core product base rather than needing one Kickstarter to fund the next and so on.

It would also be worth investing in more local production, or at least considering it, similar to WGA who moved production to the US to lessen shipping costs.

Finally they need to be honest with their customers, they should be communicating the risk this poses to all their projects and I suspect the very real potential they may go bust people should be made aware that their investments may be lost. while that’s not the news many will want to hear it would lessen the impact to be upfront with consumers and may even get some sympathy if delivered is a meanful way.

My advice for those looking to back future Kickstarters, can you afford to lose the investment, do you really need it or can you wait and don’t go big, go small. Back a indie for £20 or £50 not a £300 monster, you’ll more likely get, get it quicker too and support small businesses.

Money talks, by not supporting these kinds of projects companies like mythic will either adapt to more a more consumer friendly model or probably not stick around for long.

 

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