Are we the grognards?

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 0]

@blinky465 I’m glad you spotted that too.  I grew up watching the X-files, I love conspiracy theories but of the moderns are absolutely rubbish.  If you couldn’t make a compelling thriller about it, it’s probably not a very good conspiracy theory.  So yeah.  I think really most corporations are just motivated by money. They may follow the current trends or political winds, but that’s only because they think they can earn more money that way.

I don’t think the move to services over products is a conspiracy theory – it is demonstrably true and I do think we need wake up to it and also stop the next generation settling for that as the new status quo.  When we see a generational shift that’s going in the wrong direction, making the world worse for the next, we should probably try and stop it.  Private ownership is so important and we need to get people to aspire to that goal rather than accepting everything just being rented.  Because ultimately, somebody owns the thing you are renting – it’s not like private ownership is going away, we are just depriving the masses of that particular privilege

[blinky465 17028xp 0]

@onlyonepinman the move towards services over products is absolutely true. Where we need to be a little wary is inventing ulterior motives to reasons for things happening. If you invent somebody else’s motivation for something, and then get angry about it (and, worst still, try to encourage other people to get angry about it) you’re at the dangerous end of the conspiracy theory rabbit hole.

Sure, speculate all you like.
But I have no truck when opinions are presented as facts, and speculation as certainty.

Some things are true. We’re seeing a move towards services and virtualisation. There’s also reason for that – but the driving factor? The thing that was the initial motivation in the first place? Money. Making more money. You could argue this even this statement is just speculation – but you can also think back to when it all started (as has been pointed out, some of us were there). Multi-national corporations were driving virtualisation as a means for higher profits – the conspiracy theories about why came later.

Some things are true even if we don’t understand why.
And some things are simply not true no matter how much someone insists.
And some things that are true are presented as an opinion, when it shouldn’t be open to debate. An example:

This – for me – is the same as a classic “conspiracy theory”.
Both people are claiming to be correct, and both insist that their view on the world is the absolute truth. But this is wrong.
Somebody wrote a number nine on the floor. Or a number six. The value that the figure on the floor represents is known – it has a true value, and the person who put it there knows what this truth is. The clowns pointing at it and arguing “this is the intent that someone else had because it fits the narrative as I see things” are failing to do the work of finding out the truth. The truth does not change because of their point of view. The truth is fixed. It’s either a six or it’s a nine – there’s no arguing it another way simply because of a different opinion.

When Napster was bought out and became a “legitimate” platform, it was because it had the potential to generate a lot  of money by distributing music cheaply and easily. It wasn’t originally created to keep all your music “in the cloud” and “control your digital assets” (originally you had to download and store your own mp3 collections).
So the initial motivation for virtualising music wasn’t a conspiracy to control our lives, our way of thinking, or influence our behaviour. To suggest otherwise is to invent a motivation that wasn’t present at the time, and apply it retrospectively.

Companies like Amazon don’t pull products because it fits some over-arching “strategy” – they do it to remove barriers to trade and make more money. They don’t care what people like or don’t like, they just care about putting what they think they want in front of them, so they will pay money for it.

I completely agree that services instead of products is “a thing”. And it’s not an improvement.
But that’s because I’m from a generation that has always expected to collect and value assets.
If I were 30 years younger and had only ever known the “typical millennial lifestyle” of renting stuff and never expecting to own anything, I’m not sure I’d be quite so hung up about the change.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 2]

The ulterior motive behind services over products is…  Dun dun duuuuun… Money.  If a business sells you a product they make an amount of money off you once and then they have to put a lot of extra work in to make a new product to sell you again and that sale is by no means guaranteed, especially in a competitive market place where there are other options.  Sell you a subscription model and they only have to make one product and then spend a lower level of effort servicing that product whilst making a guaranteed (albeit smaller) amount of money off you each month.  While it is certainly cheaper in the short term it more expensive in the long run and never really gives you the opportunity to move upwards and improve your circumstances (for example buying a car, looking after it and then selling it to use as a deposit for your next car).  You essentially become trapped in a system.  While you could compare it to the credit system, you can manage the credit system to ensure you do not become trapped in it (i.e. taking on too much debt).  I don’t currently see any way around the subscription model

[moonunitParticipant 4505xp 0]

Cory Doctorow writes a long about this, corporations wanting to sell a service rather than a product. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s just the failure of our elected politicians to govern in our interests and regulate on our behalf. What we have now is called chokepoint capitalism. Its essentially a move back towards feudalism, a landlord class charging us to use their services, stopping us from owning things, preventing farmers from repairing their tractors, readers owning books, hobbyists owning their hobby. It’s exactly the sort of behaviour capitalism was originally conceived to prevent, a wealthy elite owning everything. When young people say they hate capitalism, I tell them, this isn’t capitalism.

[wolfie65Participant 1238xp 0]

The way our ‘elected’ (?) politicians govern us isn’t a failure, it’s a deliberate feature…..

[wolfie65Participant 1238xp 1]

@onlyonepinman – When companies, corporations or other entities are willing to take massive losses to  push an agenda, the ulterior motive is far more sinister than money.

[wolfie65Participant 1238xp 0]

@blinky465 – Isn’t it funny how many so-called ‘conspiracy theories’ have turned out to be true…and never more so than in the past 3 years….

Some of them don’t even go far enough, the reality is much worse.

And how afraid people are to talk about them has a lot to do with where they live, the modern versions of Stasi or Cheka are not equally distributed.

[horati0nosebl0wer 19645xp 1]

Well this has certainly ballooned nicely into a lively thread.

Not being as intellectual as I try to be I can say that the deep analysis of the subject seems to check out with my limited knowledge base. Thurston Veblin’s “Theory of the Leisure Class” is about as far afield as I can claim to have read on economics. If that is married to the Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs then we can see that we’re pretty well off with playing/painting tiny fighting men.

Taking the matter of “someone wants to take my toys away” or being told “those toys aren’t yours” really hits at a core notion of the fun principle. We do have parts of us that are childish. It could be called immature by those outside our hobby, but they don’t find what we like to be fun.

If we have within ourselves a sense of agreeableness and some sense of cooperation then we want to share that same fun with others. That isn’t possible if a message is delivered that says “this is mine and you can’t have it, unless….”.

This might well be a simple affront to the emotions of fun. We see the motivation of how money leads business (not to forget the afore mentioned politicians) and a sobering ponder on the dark triad of personality can be brought forth. Perhaps this is an instinctual rejection of a situation from one personality group as it might encounter narcissism. Gaming is emotional hero-play. Throw your tinfoil helm on and don’t forget to get a wooden sword and maybe a towel as a cape. A bigger world exists beyond the 4×6 space and unfortunately those who might share it have been lulled into the sole use of a desktop with 1s an 0s as their prepackaged suite of imagination.

[jamescutts 6924xp 0]

Its a really interesting topic from the OP, seems to have ventured off a bit and become quite lively!

I think the Hasbro layoffs come down more to the kind of short term capitalism thats driven by shareholders, US companies seem to be particularly brutal as of late in the same way. I wouldn’t myself directly link it to any aspect of the hobby, it a corporate doing corporatey things. Why sell a book at $30 making $20 when you can sell a pdf at $30 with minimal overhead.

From what I’ve seen over the last few years back in the hobby the physical is certainty going nowhere and seems to be going from strength to strength. There’s certainly been a growth in the digital but I think its adding on top of rather rather than replacing.

 

I can see why there’s a rise in digital particularly around books, the cost of printing is ever increasing and a big pressure on business, to get the price that deliver margins you need print runs. That has a big hit on small businesses and I can see why companies are moving to digital releases, limited print runs or print on demand. But you only need to look at a certain Nottingham based company that only releases the physical to see its around to stay.

On the topic of RPG’s they seem a very natural fit to easily translating to the digital world,  afterall PC games have done this for years, and “the event” seems to have cemented the idea that playing digitally with friends from across the world in may cases can be just as fun as in person. Also proud member of the RPG wookie minis are sacrilege brigade 😀

On a wider note I can see how real world economics might be affecting physical gaming, peoples incomes are continually squeezed and even those of us lucky to have enough disposable income for the hobby often struggle. (ill prefix this next bit as UK specific and a bit general) A lot of the aging population tend to have larger housing, and may be lucky enough to have dedicated hobby spaces for in person gaming, for those in their 20’s or 30’s chances are you live in much smaller housing, with less space that costs a significant amount more. You have less space for your hobby, less money for it and less space to store it. I think that tends to drive having smaller games, making more use of gaming stores and clubs, both of which when it comes to books favour digital, you can store and transport them easily, and instead give you the space to focus on just a few rather than needing everything physically. I came to this realisation with CD’s/DVD’s/Bluray, years ago, my collection was costly, took up a load of space i didnt really have and was a pain to move. On the flip side of that I think those that manage to hobby physically often appreciate it more, as escapism, for socialising or to just have something tangible.

@blinky465 I’ve very much in agreement on the generationally aspect, my grandparents still remain terrified of the idea of credit cards and of not having a landline, despite having mobiles. I think theres similar with only physical books for the older generation, to those of us in-between which like both and those which probably will now only go digital. On the overuse of subscriptions, I can get the likes of Spotify, I’ve enjoyed the likes of netflix in the past though its increasingly annoying when the various services looks shows and then another gains them. I’ll never get why I’d want a subscription to washing machine capsules which i saw the other day, sod that, i’ll just walk down to the shop when i need them.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 1]

@wolfie65 I don’t think I am aware of any conspiracy theories coming true of late.  And the fact that corporations have lost money pushing agendas doesn’t mean they were willing to do so, it means they very much missed the mark with the product development and marketing, but I am 110% certain that no corporation set out to lose money.  On anything.  Ever.

 

The bit about losing money has definitely come true, the bit about them willingly doing so is the conspiracy theory.  The former does not prove the latter

[wolfie65Participant 1238xp 0]

You’re not aware of any ‘conspiracy theories’ coming true as of late ?

Guess you must have been asleep under a rock for the past 3 years. Good for you…..

[blinky465 17028xp 0]

And so the conversation about conspiracy theories reaches it’s natural conclusion, barely concealed insults. Which is why so many of us are uncomfortable addressing them in the first place.

Can we please stop?

[horati0nosebl0wer 19645xp 1]

Okay, we’ve crossed the Rubicon. We need to get back on point. Any jabs can be taken private and dealt with off thread.

Here we’ve had a good ramble and we’ve resolved my question. Yes, there is a motivation of money to companies which means directing interests. This isn’t social engineering as far as masked cabals in hooded robes. Universal greed makes for easy changes in the corporate landscape.

Here we see a change of our hobby as a product and we’re generally uncomfortable. There might be reasons of just plain familiarity or ethical/moral interests which direct us in this manner. Yes, it is agreed we are the grognards that wish to continue on a tradition of enjoying what we know against change.

This is all what we enjoy together overall and the infight is useless. Time’s change but the sense of wonder is a point that perhaps we need to preserve for the sake of the hobby. Without it there is no fun and no future.

[onlyonepinman 18060xp 1]

There’s only one person jabbing at anyone (as far as I can see) and those jabs are being largely ignored – I am certainly not offended by it.  I wouldn’t worry about it.

The problem is, and this is true with most discussions about most big cultural shifts, conspiracy theory comes with the territory.  What’s the agenda, who stands to gain etc etc. And there is usually a grain of truth behind most (not all) conspiracy theories.  There are absolutely agents for change in the world, some overt and some covert.

However in this case I don’t think there is a conspiracy theory on account of the fact that Hasbro have been pretty up front about why they’re doing it – the CEO of WotC was on record as saying that D&D was under-monetised.  It’s not a conspiracy if the people doing the thing are open and honest about what they’re doing and why.  This actually something that Bill Gates was talking about 20 years ago – that the way to make money off the internet will be by selling “content”.  And it should not be a surprise that Microsoft Office is now a subscription model, not a product based model.  What we are seeing right now is an expansion of the definition of “content” to essentially be anything and everything that a company can monitor, control and thus restrict, via software.

Software as a Service is very much a term in software development circles and that is the primary means by which this whole sorry state exists.  10 years ago, you bought a car and if you wanted heated seats, you paid extra and they installed them.  Now, BMW’s operating model is to build the car with ALL the features already built in but disabled.  You can either pay a one off fee to enable them or pay a monthly subscription to have them enabled.  People should really think about the implications of that and some of the dark roads that particular concept could take us down as a society.  That’s not suggesting a conspiracy here, think of it more as a science fiction book, exploring the potential worst case scenarios of certain aspects of humanity.  Not saying it WILL happen only that it could happen and what BMW are doing is actually setting a dangerous precedent.

And then of course we are seeing a desire by companies like WotC to drive their product into the digital world.  That’s bad both for the hobby, as it will drive people out of a social setting and into a virtual setting and it’s bad for consumers as it simply means paying a premium for something you will never truly own.

So, while I totally accept that conspiracy theorists will be out in force over this, I actually don’t think it can be helped – it’s par for the course.  But it’s also definitely something worth taking a stand over, even so far as standing with the tin foil hat brigade.  Whether we agree on WHY it’s happening and WHO is behind it or not, it’s going to affect us all.

[wolfie65Participant 1238xp 0]

@blinky465 – Many are ‘uncomfortable’ because in some places, they might go to (real) jail for ‘liking’ the wrong online post.

Sense of wonder is an excellent term, one that was used way back in the 1970s, possibly earlier, to describe Fantasy novels that had a certain something, those moments when the veil shifts and it dawns on the character (and reader) that that doorknob may be more than just a doorknob, that that tree may have actually said something, tht ring may be more than just a ring. Or taht that girl’s ears really were extremely pointy.

For this grognard, no digital ‘product’ will ever come even close to matching a big box of toy soldiers.

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