Anti Shiny Syndrome League

[admiralandy 1647xp 1]

@collins, you might want to check out Asgard Games in the center of Walsall and Asda with a carpark is around the corner.

[oriskany 60771xp 1]

@admiralandy , to answer your questions:

1) Favorite game from 1974:  Panzer Leader by Avalon Hill (update from 1971 PanzerBlitz, updated in 1977 with The Arab-Israeli Wars, and again in 2007 with Tactical Combat Middle East)

2) 1989 game recently replayed in miniature (actually I was wrong about this, it was 1991) – TSR’s Battlesystem 2nd Edition.

3) Four games since 2000:  Battlegroup (including NORTHAG).  Valor & Victory.  AirCombat C21.  Naval Command.  Now these are just games I have tried and own.  There are lots of other games I haven’t tried but hear good things about (Skirmish Sangin, Battlespace, UltraCombat Modern, anything by TooFatLardies, etc.).

[warhammergrimace 13766xp 1]

I have the old Warhammer Historical WW2 rules Kampfrgruppe Normandy which I’ve started looking as an alternative to playing Bolt Action once in awhile.

I play Legends of the High Seas by Warhammer Historical on a fairly regular basis as well. In fact it’s the only Pirate rule set I play.

[admiralandy 1647xp 1]

@warhammergrimace Battlegroup Kursk series of Wargames now from Plastic Soldier Company I think stem from Kampfrugge Normandy, being by the same author and all…

@oriskany PanzerLeader ofc, I shoulda got that, didn’t realise it was quite that old. though. TSR Battlesystem I recall you did a series on that.

I’m still surprised you haven’t tagged Battletech in there, AirWar C21 thats on my radar not tried, especially as theyve now just done, (this week I think) the Air War 1918.

TooFatLardies also on my gaming radar, not least because they’ve done some coverage for the Falklands 1982 Conflict (war) which I’m interested in gaming at some point! Also where AirWar makes its way onto my Radar for consideration.

[oriskany 60771xp 1]

@admiralandy – I like BattleTech to be sure.  In a similar FASA sci-fi vein, I would add Star Trek Tactical Combat Simulator and Renegade Legion games like Centurion and Interceptor.  Those games are all from way before 2000, though.  I think the question was:

“I really only like four games published since 2000 – okay, what games?”
“Your favorite game was published in 1974?  What’s that?”
“What game were you mentioning you’d dusted off an army for this weekend from 1989?”

God, I love TONS of games since before 2000.  Advanced Squad Leader (too many rules and all), 1776, Gettysburg, Tactics II (great for beginners), GDW Assault series, a lot of Battletech, a lot (but not all Renegade Legion) GDW Team Yankee (1988 title), GHQ Microarmor, just to name a few. Hell, even most of the older White Wolf line for RPGs (before the line changed into, well, what it is 2004 to today).

It was a different age, then. 😐

[phaidknott 7023xp 0]

I LOVE Renegade Legion (it was FASA’s follow on gamr from BattleTech), particularly Centurion (the Grav Tank game), my only hurdle now is trying to afford the metals from CinC (wish I lived in the US, cus the shipping and import duties almost double the price 🙁 ).

It’s going back to an era when games had rules that were complicated by todays standard, but the designers were trying to “simulate” something on the tabletop (rather than trying to showcase a particular game mechanism). The rules had “meat” on them that you could get your teeth into, and kept the old noggin doing mental arithmetic (nowadays we have to do Sudoku to do that).

I dread seeing the words “streamlined” when the designer is explaining the rules (usually means simplified to the extent you may as well chuck dice at figures to calculate casualties, and that’s not a new thing H G Wells did it first 😀 ). Boardgames of the same era were usually just “family” games (monopoly, cluedo etc), or were military themed boardgames (usually a refight of a certain battle) put out by SSI or AH. There was no real middle ground (it was Grognard or nothing), but the games made no apology for it. It was up to the gamer to “learn” the rules (sometimes over multiple games), instead of being able to pick them up in five minutes.

I personally feel that it’s this simplification over the years that’s perhaps made a lot of games feel “generic”, or boring to play. Results are determined more on dice roll or card pull than anything the player does (and a lot of more modern games feel that way to me). Perhaps this resurgence of BT is down to players re-discovering the old rules, where the rules are more than 10 pages, you have to keep paper records of things, you have to apply your mind and pay attention to the game.

Don’t get me wrong, sometimes I want to play a more rules “lite” game, than can be over in 30 minutes. But there’s times when I want to spend a whole afternoon on a game and really dig down and get immersed in the game itself (I never get that feeling with the short run games). And over the past 20 odd years or so, the majority of new releases have been towards the “lite” rules and short games (although Risk has very simple rules, but the games can last for HOURS (as well as players refusing to ever trust you again for years after that game where you backstab someone to gain that continent 😀 )). NEVER play RISK with family, and only with friends you can afford to lose…….

But Renegade Legion : Centurion…Now there’s a game. Just such a shame it never got the chance to evolve like BattleTech did (and gather a wider following) before FASA went under 🙁

 

[sundancer 42973xp 1]

Streamlining  isn’t a bad thing per se. Only if it the only option. Some BT rules have been streamlined for the beginners box and the AGOAC box as well. Or maybe let’s say “they are optional” and add complexity.

Streamlined rules are a great way for introductory games. Star Wars Legion has a “your first battle” with streamlined rules. It’s by far not complete but it gives a great way to practice the core mechanics and works with everything that’s in the box.

[phaidknott 7023xp 1]

Yup, but it seems these days that EVERYTHING is streamlined.

I’m trying to think of a rules system that’s on par with BattleTech in regards to complexity, record keeping etc…..and I can’t think of one released in the last 10 years (with the vast amount of KickStarters propergating new games you’d think there would be at least one).

It would be nice to be able to pick to play a in-depth, complicated, full afternoon (or even a full day) game as well as a five or six player quick and easy (and perhaps more social) game from the FLGS shelves.

Perhaps this is why we’re seeing players becoming bored and perhaps a little jaded with a lot of game systems (lets face it players tend to buy game based on the IP or minis rather than how good the rules are). Personally I put a lot of the blame for the “overload” on kickstarter (there’s very few Kickstarter games that have had good rules, usually it’s fantastic components and rules as an after-thought). Perhaps this is why we’re seeing a movement towards “I’m tired of buying new stuff (that just sits on the shelf unplayed)”, and having players relook at older game systems and rules (where perhaps the focus was perhaps more on writing a good set of rules than producing fantastic minis). I mean when BattleTech first came out (as BattleDroids), it didn’t even have any bespoke minis and used either standees or some Japanese 3″ tall plastic kits of “Mechs” for a totally different IP that BT kinda “borrowed” (the popularity for BT grew from the rules rather than the components).

…..and I’m still kicking myself for selling all my Crimson Skies stuff (another FASA game) years ago (I’d love to play that again), and hey it nicked the damage system/rules from Renegade Legion : Centurion as well 😀

 

[warhammergrimace 13766xp 4]

Sometimes rules need to be streamlined, such as 40K, which had become really bloated and unwieldly to play. Warhammer Fantasy was even worse and had to be killed off, as I don’t think they could streamline it without producing a poor rule system. So they killed it and by the look of it will rebuild from scratch, probably based loosely on the Sigmar rules.

I think streamlined and more complicated rule systems have their place, sometime I quite like to play a more complicated rule system as long as it’s not be made to be complicated for the sake of being complicated. Other times I’m happy to play streamlined easy to understand rules, which we must also remember that without those some people wouldn’t step into the hobby. If all rules were heavily complicated it’s likely to put off new players and push them away. I’ve been introduced to some games and at the end I’ve gone, Dear God that was painful, if I’ve done that after being a hobbyist since 83 what’s a newbie going to think lol.

[sundancer 42973xp 1]

I think there is a difference in streamlining a cluttered mess of a rule-set (Warhamster) for a better game or cutting away meat just to make it easier to get into for many people. (Blitzbowl vs Blood Bowl)

 

[admiralandy 1647xp 0]

@oriskany

True I did limit the criteria of my question and you answered as I had asked. Thanks for your time with that 🙂

Enjoy your gaming 🙂

 

[somegeezer 18431xp 1]

I’ve just read this thread in full and it’s striking a chord with me. I’m still buying minis but more and more aware of the stuff everywhere.

I’ve opted out of big Kickstarters since Village Attacks or Resistant Evil 2 (total games played: 0).

I’m trying to avoid starting new projects as well. I’m taking satisfaction in finishing what I’ve got. I’m still a slow painter with little time and energy after switching off the work computer but I’m enjoying painting again.

I’ve got a ton of projects in varying states of incompleteness and I’m going to get some of them done.

I don’t think I qualify to this cult but it’s an aspiration. Sincere thanks for the inspiration, folks!

[osbad 4279xp 1]

Well, just had pay day, and no minis were bought.  I call that a success.

One thought buzzing around my mind is whether buying updated rules counts or not.  I say this, because in certain circumstances, doing so may mean getting use out of old minis that would otherwise fester unused.  A case in point is the new Kill Team.  I bought into the big box Kill Team release a couple of years back but found the rules were a swing and a miss.  The new rules seem to be somewhat of an improvement so getting the book may encourage me to use the old models and 40k terrain I got back then, particularly as I notice AdMech rules in the latest WD.  There are a couple of folks in my group looking at it, but no one (including me) liked the previous ruleset, so it is shredder fodder.

Similarly I may get the Deadzone v3 rules when they come out next month.  I played the heck out of 1st edition, but other than acquiring the rulebook never got 2nd ed to the table for some reason.  If there is a reasonable chance of others in my group getting into it, I may be persuaded to dust off old models for v3.  And it would have to be v3 because no one else has 1st or 2nd, and in our group we don’t tend to share rulebooks for some reason.

I appreciate the tone of the OP was that we should play old games rather than buying new, but I can’t see that holding if the reason we ditched the old rules was we just didn’t like them, or got bored or fed up with them.

I’m interested to hear others’ views, as to how we should play this by-law! 😀

As an addendum, I’d like to find out if anyone else finds it hard to dump old rulebooks even if they aren’t being kept for any aesthetic or nostalgic or gameplay reasons.  I have a shelf or two full of old rulebooks that will never be opened again even just to flick through for nostalgia.  I’m not talking about that dog-eared copy of the AD&D Players Handbook from 1981 that I slept with under my pillow as a kid, or that copy of 2nd ed WFB that still gets to the table every decade or so, but rather the stuff like 2nd ed Malifaux which was boring AF and whose fluff left me cold, or 1st ed Bolt Action, which was OK at the time, but was just inferior to the current edition, and is just taking up room. etc. etc.  YMMV as to which particular books you do or do not want to look at again,  but you probably will have some, I’m pretty sure of that!

I should just dump them to free up the shelf space, but something just stops me.  It may be that their covers are still pretty on the shelf, or that they represent a lot of money spent at the time, but really I’m not sure what it’s all about?!  (Should add that this also applies to game cards – 1st and 2nd ed War Machine for instance).

Hey, ho.  Still some self-analysis to be undertaken yet awhiles I fear…

 

[sundancer 42973xp 0]

Well, if you just buy SAGA (for example) books and get some more use out of your already existing (and possibly painted) minis then I think it’s ok. A book is always nice and your PoO doesn’t get bigger necessarily. Also it might keep you gaming group together when others still hunt the shiny things.

Buying rulebooks I feel is sort of the exception to the rule.

[warhammergrimace 13766xp 1]

I agree rule and research books don’t count though I have started to dislike games that constantly release new editions of the game.

[Author]

Posts