A good alternative to Age of Sigmar ?

[limburger 21712xp 0]

And no … I don’t mean Kings of War or 9th Age.
So if you were going to post that then take a deep breath and read  😉
(and keep it civilized … I know it is ‘popular’ to hate the great Gwulluh club, but let’s not go there, right ?)

I kind of like the background that (some of) the armies in Age of Sigmar have.
The rules themselves just don’t seem to do justice to those factions and how they play. The size of the forces also don’t match the ‘skirmish’ title that is given because it is a mass battle game without the rank&file restrictions once you start looking into actual lists. And every time it is as if factions are made just to make me buy ‘more stuff’ and less like “this is a cool idea … let’s make the most of it”. I also think that a D6 isn’t the best die to use if you want lots of variety in stats without creating special skills for every thing which makes standard troops too much of an elite force as opposed the cannon fodder they should be.

Ideally it would be a system that allows for assymetrical forces, because (IMHO) certain factions are better at all out warfare whereas others should be rewarded for using ambush tactics.

I know there is ‘Warlords of Erehwon, but that is (IMHO) a bit on the lightweight side in terms of magic and a bit too generic.  Then again, maybe someone has done the legwork and written a few houserules and armylists using AoS as background ? (internet is huge and things may be there).

So I was wondering … what options are out there in the fantasy genre that would support the lore in AoS ?

Why not Kings of War ?
Because I feel it is set in its own world already. I know they allow freedom in choosing what minis you use, but in the end you’d be substituting an Age of Sigmar faction and playing it as a KoW faction.
That is unless you can ‘design’ your own army.

9th Age ?
That’s old school Warhammer … and (I know just my opinion) they’re a bit too much in love with how things were. I might as well just play old warhammer fantasy battle.

Oathmark ?
Maybe, but from what I’ve seen it is classic fantasy.
I don’t know how much of the fluff in AoS would fit (still no demons or something right ?).

So yeah … is it possible to play ‘Age of Sigmar’ without using the rules (and statlines) that GW writes ?

[elpotofParticipant 667xp 1]

How about looking at God of Battles by Jake Thornton? It may be difficult to get hold of these days, but it might fit your requirements

God of Battles

[bloodmoonorcParticipant 1763xp 1]

Dragon Rampant from Osprey. These are the fantasy version of the Lion Rampant rules that seem to have been very popular.

DR will probably fit into the same category as Warlords of Erehwon but they aren’t a huge investment and have been my go to set for using ASOIAF miniatures with other manufacturers models such as the new orcs from GW.

[limburger 21712xp 0]

@elpotof Never heard of it, but that’s ok. It does look like it has a few neat concepts, but availability is definitely an issue.
I think I’d like more skirmish/warband style and less ‘mass battle’.

@bloodmoonorc got any experience with that game ?

Google got me this :

Adapting a WFB army: Part 1 Age of Magic

Worth a peek as this looks like someone has at least attempted this with Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

(off topic : it sucks how difficult it is to find non GW stuff, doesn’t it ? You either find stuff that is out of print or very niche … )
Anyways … anyone in this community ever found a set of rules to use which kept the flavour the AoS/WFB units had in the official fluff ?
Standing on the shoulders of giants is easier than starting from scratch 😉
And I’m not sure if I could commit to such a project myself (at least not yet).

[captainventanusParticipant 4936xp 2]

Finding a ruleset that is more Age of Sigmar than Age of Sigmar is quite a challenge. I get though were you are coming from as AoS is around perfecting the use of a certain combinations of units which is quite abstract for a skirmish game – which it isn’t as you say. Though all the different add ons over the years allow a bit more flavour. Whatever the AoS Crusade system will be might do it.

The default answer would be OnePage Rules which do go down to skirmish level. While more streamlined they ultimately are just as generic as AoS, Erehwon etc.. Dragon Rampant is even more so. The advanced version of Song of Blades and Heroes might be worth a look, though that too is fairly generic.

Going the other way Eldfall Chronicles will offer more depth, but that is in its own established universe so would require a lot of work too adapt.

[templar5836 3327xp 2]

I have to agree with A Song of Blades and Heroes, it is a great game, and you can easily make any type of unit in any fantasy genre. While it looks generic at first glance  the addition of special powers to each unit can basically recreate almost any AoS unit you can think of. The downside that I can see is if you want a game that “plays like AoS”  ASoBaH may not be exactly what you are looking for as units are individual models ( there are ways to group activate) and if you are looking at bigger model counts like in AoS the game would probably bog down a little. All that being said the activation system and turn structure are incredibly fun and have a push your luck quality. The free online unit creator is very convenient, and while it technically has a “game world” it is rather generic and easily ignored. Advanced SoBaH has a great customizable magic system where as the original system barely has one at all. I think for the money the system costs you can’t go wrong, even if it doesn’t end up replacing AoS it is a fun system that will let you use your AoS minis however you want

[limburger 21712xp 1]

@captainventanus any wargame is about ‘perfecting’ combinations if you want to min/max your army … but that isn’t what I meant.
I think the AoS setting has more to offer than the rules themselves allow. GW is using D6’s as the proverbial hammer (‘if all you have is a hammer than any problem is a nail … ‘). There’s heaps of ‘special abilities’ that are in the rules, because of how the core mechanics work.

From what I’ve read in reviews so far ‘Dragon Rampant’ has a philosophy of ‘less is more’ which I can appreciate.
WoE itself may be a better fit than I had imagined (need to re-read the book and see what’s what).

There’s also “Saga : Age of Magic”, but the magic feels a little too light for a high magic setting like AoS. It also (appears to) lack variety in unit types, which makes sense for its original background but may not fit for a generic fantasy system.

sidenote : some of these publishers really need to update their websites/webshops for modern audiences … it feels like I’m back in the 80’s. It’s real hard to respect a system when the design is so lacking …

 

[ugleb 12789xp 3]

I think you are going to have a bit of steep hill to climb here as you appear to want a system that has set out to write a better version of AoS.  I don’t think that really exists as the GW fans focus on preserving/iterating on GW’s old games rather than on re-writing the current stuff.

No other company is going to openly re-write AoS as it is asking to be sued.

So the alternative then is to adapt your AoS collection to another system which is inevitably going to have some sort of setting attached (KoW) which you need to look beyond or be very generic (One Page Rules?) and you may have to do a bit more legwork.

I suspect that KoW is a closer fit for you but you need to separate the rules from the setting in your head.

[captainventanusParticipant 4936xp 0]

@limburger Yes, ultimately that is what most games are about. What I meant was that it is so obvious in AoS – which is a good thing I guess for new players – that it takes away some of that immersive effect.
I have a similar issue in regards to Star War Legion. The FFG approach to rules just doesn’t do it for me and while I can tolerate it for Armada I do not want to play Legion as it is. So far I have yet to find something to replace the rules though.

[limburger 21712xp 0]

@ugleb you are spot on about the GW fans (or fans of any system) … which is why I think 9th Age is not an option.

Of course it won’t be easy, because if it was then there would already be one out there, wouldn’t it ?
Although there probably are dozens of rulebooks out there that barely get any recognition, because AoS is such a dominant system.

Part of the problem is that Fantasy (and Science Fiction) as genres are incredibly tough to promote as you need to sell people on the lore before you can tell them the rules. This may be why generic versions feel so bland, because they have no visuals to use and very few have an artist that can compete with the top tier products in the field.

Another aspect is that I don’t really know what I ‘need’ from the rules.
All I know is that I want as few ‘special skills’ per unit as possible and at the same time I want rules that allow factions to have a distinct flavour. Magic should be in there, but at the same time a non-magic faction should be viable somehow.

So first I want to get an idea of what is out there and what shape those things are.
From what I’ve seen the rather ‘amateur’ / old school art & layout of some of them is a real downer.
I get that not everyone has the talent or resources to do those things, but it’s not making it easy to see past the exterior.
“A Song of Blades and Heroes” is a perfect example … because ye gods is it ugly to look at.

[smithscoParticipant 1212xp 1]

@captainventanus my group had the same issue for Legion. We adapted and started using Spectre Operations for small scale fire fights/commando raids and it worked great. They have a free pdf supplement that adds a generic sci Fi warrior that can work as a force user with a little adaptation.

 

@limburger I know you said no Kings of War but I have to agree with Captainventanus. My group adapted it to fight larger Lord of the Rings battles and didn’t change any rules. Just used the book to make new factions. The one draw back for what you’re looking for is that a lot of the modification comes from giving equipment that grants extra abilities or modifiers. That being said non magic armies can definitely hold their own since they had to make historic compatible with fantasy. I defeated Isengard (featuring Saruman making it literally rain fire) with a Macedonian army led by Alexander.

[limburger 21712xp 1]

@smithsco using Spectre to replace Legion you say ?
that is cool … will have to look into that one.

KoW is a bit too abstract for me. It feels like pushing rectangles instead of bits of an army. A bit too much like chess.
OTOH … it can never hurt to get the rules, because I do like Armada and a bit of extra background for that game can’t be bad.

Clash of Spears might be another option. It has that small skirmish feel to it that I like. They don’t have magic or flying units.

I also want to keep my options open so I can play AoS without having to rebase the army to use whatever hybrid/alternate system I end up adapting. I know sabot like movement trays would be an option (the Game of Thrones game and Conquest have them), so it wouldn’t be impossible as long as I don’t need to use square bases as well.

[torros 23816xp 0]

@limburger there is a fantasy version of Clash of Spears in the works I believe

[templar5836 3327xp 0]

@limburger : I guess I can see your opinion about “amateur” art in games, but I can’t see how it would reflect badly on a rule set. In the case of SoBaH it is a one man operation in which the author is also the illustrator, and while the art work is not up to the standards of a GW or other larger companies with bigger budgets, it does reflect the artwork of the “old school” games it has taken inspiration from. There was a long discussion here on the site about why rules cost so much, and whether we need colorful glossy paged rule books with stunning artwork to be satisfied, and I believe most who responded said that the rules were what was important. I would argue that while I too appreciate a beautiful hardcover rulebook, there is no relation between that and the quality of the rules. In the case of looking for rules to play with an already established world like AoS (which does have stunning artwork and an established background) this should matter even less I would think, as you are just looking for a vehicle to play with models and story from another game that has rules you don’t like.

This is not meant to be an argument for SoBaH but to point out that maybe you should be looking for something where the rules come first and flashy design and art come 2nd,3rd or 12th

[limburger 21712xp 0]

@templar5836 when Clash of Spears (not exactly a big team) and Spectre Operations (tiny operation) as well as Moonstone (one man doing everything) can produce good looking rules then I think the argument that “it is a small team” starts to get kind of silly.

One can hire artists, editors and layout experts to help finish a product and give it a chance in a crowded market.
I’m not expecting GW levels of art, but a bit more effort than using the ‘old school design’ as an excuse for art that feels more at home in a highschool project and less like something that is worth buying. (I’m sorry but I really don’t like that style)

I’ve seen the Osprey wargaming booklets and I know what to expect (good art, nice layout), so I can take a chance (and I still need to find extra stuff to buy in order for the shipping to not be more expensive than the actual product).

With a book that I need to hunt for (redirect to a publisher who redirects to Lulu and a broken amazon link) I really need a bit more than a tiny picture of the cover and a claim that it won a prize at Origins at release.

http://www.songofblades.com/category-s/114.htm

tells me to go to here http://www.ganeshagames.net/

which redirects to
https://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/song-of-blades-and-heroes—revised-edition/13218405?page=1&pageSize=4

66 pages, black & white ?

Meanwhile Osprey :

https://ospreypublishing.com/store/osprey-games/osprey-wargames/dragon-rampant

https://ospreypublishing.com/store/osprey-games/osprey-wargames/kobolds-cobblestones

(sadly no EU delivery … )

// —

btw : I prefer physical books … pdf’s feel cheap and are tricky to use without a computer handy.

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