40k

[greigorParticipant 280xp 0]

So just a general question, what rule system is 40k using now? I started playing way back with the original Rogue Trader rule set and stopped playing when they got stupid and redesigned the whole system and made it worst. I started up again after they realized their mistake and went back to the Rogue Trader rules. We, my gaming group and I, even gave them the idea of female space marines which GDW turned into the original Sisters of Battle. Shortly after GDW made new changes to the rule set which made our armies useless and not having the monies to update said armies I kept what I wanted and sold off everything else. After watching this weeks Weekender it sounds like GDW is repeating it’s mistakes of the past by putting too many tangent arcs out there with conflicting rule sets. So far, just listening to you guys, there’s at least 4 different things going on at the same time.

[rastamannParticipant 2735xp 2]

I’m not sure I will actually be able to answer your question, but GW, not GDW, never really went back to any previous set of rules. They kept going forward. The 40k ruleset is currently in it’s 8th edition, with rumours of a 9th edition coming possibly this year.

I got in 40k in second edition, which is when I found it, and that remains the best edition for me, but I would imagine that is because it’s when I got in to it and nostalgia plays a big part.

Now the problem I see, and this is my opinion, with the original Rogue Trader rules, and even with 2nd edition, is that it wasn’t terribly geared for having 100+ models on each side and still completing a game in under 2 to 2 and half hours, thus it was an impediment to bigger armies. The rules from 3rd ed on have been geared for larger forces and that is what their player base apparentely wants.

I haven’t listened to the latest Weekender, but off the top of my head, 40k currently has, rules-wise

– Warhammer 40k proper – the game designed for large scale skirmish (30-100 models)

– Apocalypse – this one is an adaptation of Epic for 28mm and allows for larger battles using quite differente game mechanics

– Kill Team – this is designed for small scale actions, with up to 20 models a side, and is a more granular experience with more detailed combat, alternating activation, etc.

– Necromunda – this one overlaps a little with Kill Team in that it’s also a small skirmish game but it’s way more detailed than Kill Team and since no one really has that much of armour, the combat is less lethal so as to make those models more meaningful). It also is set in a civilian world and represents gang warfare, and it is, in effect, a successor of their original “confrontation” rules that came out in a WD in very early 90’s

So yes, there are multiple rule sets, but they cater to different aspects of the universe. I imagine you could do everything this does in Rogue Trader, but that one would be more like a big Kill Team game and I’d imagine a 50-100 models per side or a 300 models per side game in Rogue Trader not really being doable in an evening, which all 4 of the current rulesets allow. Kill Team games actually take less than 1 hour.

[shinnentaiParticipant 741xp 1]

That’ a pretty good summary – I played mostly 2nd and 3rd edition but have dipped in and out over the succeeding rules since then. With hindsight I do think that 2nd edition was my favourite. 3rd really stripped the most interesting elements out of the core rules – those unusual occurrences and twists of fate that so often made 2nd ed games memorable.

I’ve found it interesting that in the editions since that first ‘great-simplifying’ of 3rd ed, the elements that had been removed have slowly been making their way back into the game in some guise – marching, overwatch, differing movement values, armour save modifiers, and the importance of cover.

[tankkommanderParticipant 6423xp 1]

If you are looking to dip your toe back in the water then Kill Team is probably the way to go. Not going to bust your wallet at least :p There are some good play throughs here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0ClLvjQTVE&list=PLSODAhRAk7nU0BQDajl-i6D-SAg7qPDN2

[limburger 21705xp 1]

@rastamann :
Don’t forget about :

– “Adeptus Titanicus” (a reboot of the classic game without Xenos factions at this time)

– “Aeronautica Imperialis” (hexbased airwar in 40k)

– “Blackstone Fortress” (dungeon crawling in 40k)

//

Slightly out of left field … but why not try “Starbreach”?
It’s got army lists for totally-not-spacemarines-no-sir such and other factions  … and it might remind you of the original Rogue Trader with its DIY approach to army and list building.

https://www.starbreach.com/

 

[rastamannParticipant 2735xp 0]

No, I didn’t forget those, but I was specifically referring to games that are in the 40k Universe and use the same scale. Blackstone Fortress uses the same scale but has very specifics miniatures to it, which is why I left it out. We could also go with

– the burning of prospero

– betrayal at calth

Though I’m not sure these 2 are still sold – great boxed sets, both of them.

As for Adeptus Titanicus, it first came about during Rogue Trader era, before second ed 40k even – come to think of it Epic Space Marine 2nd Edition also came out just before 40k 2nd Ed, so they were already in play at the time the OP was gaming in the 40k universe.

There was also Space Fleet at that time, though I think briefly, and Confrontation (which I mentioned above, also predates 40k 2nd ed, IIRC)

I’ve always thought of the different scaled games (AT/Epic/Aeronautica and BFG) as complements to the universe. Well, in my case, 40k stuff is a complement to my main game which is Epic) – Me and my brother have an ongoing campaign that has games of all of these systems, including betrayal at calth and even Space Crusade, mixing and matching for a grand narrative. So we’ve had games of literally all this stuff to paint a really nice picture. We are even thinking of including our other, not so 40k-inclined brother by using one of the RPG systems 🙂

And nice tip on the Star Breach project! Didn’t know about that one! I must investigate further! Thanks!

[bubbles15Participant 2308xp 0]

Originally Games Workshop were called Games Designer’s Workshop back in the dim and distant, thus the GDW.

[rastamannParticipant 2735xp 5]

I’m pretty sure Games Designer’s Worshop was an American company formed around the same time in the US, founded, among others, by Frank Chadwick (of Command Decision fame) focussing on historical and sci-fi miniature wargames rules, as well as hex and counter wargames and RPG’s, including the original Traveller, 2300AD and Twilight 2000. I even have a bunch of their games. They had their own magazine and all, that was sometimes offered bundled with their games – Challenge Magazine.

Games Workshop was founded by Ian Livingstone, among others, in the mid 70’s, and later paired up with Bryan Ansell, who later still bought the company from Livingstone and Steve Jackson. Citadel Miniatures was founded by them all at the time Bryan Ansell came onboard and later was subsumed into the GW group and brand.

[shinnentaiParticipant 741xp 1]

That reminds me (sorry to go off-topic!), anyone else looking forward to the book about the early years of GW written by Ian Livingstone & Steve Jackson? :

https://unbound.com/books/games-workshop/

Seems like a good time to delve into some nostalgia, though it only covers 75-85 – I guess we’d really need Rick Priestley to collaborate with some of the other GW staffers of the time to put together a 40k-centric volume.

[rastamannParticipant 2735xp 0]

We’re going back and forwards in GW’s history – it’s all good, don’t worry mate.

I hadn’t known about that book until you pointed it out. Looks like a nice reminiscence 🙂

[limburger 21705xp 1]

@rastamann both prospero and betrayal at calth have been extremely limited ‘boardgames’ … I had forgotten about those.
Although I think they’re best not mentioned as they’re out-of-print like ‘speedfreaks’ and a lot of the ‘models with game’ attached games they’ve sold.

Blackstone appears to have a lot of support , whereas Killteam is practically dead.
I think GW created too many expansions too early for Killteam, which kind of results in nothing to collect/sell at this stage.

With every game you can still see that their primary business is selling models and not rules & community support.
That bit is reserved for their primary games (AoS + 40k) with Underworld being the one exception (good luck getting any of the initial teams though … )

[rastamannParticipant 2735xp 0]

@limburger I actually think Kill Team is a very good game – I won’t play regular 40k, but that one is rewarding of tactical play, I think, and keeps you engaged throughout the turn – they did do a mistake by bringing out the commanders expansion for it, though, and I haven’t tried Arena as well.

Also, I didn’t play Prospero or Speed Freaks yet, but have found the Betrayal at Calth to be a nice game.

I didn’t really appreciate the Underworld premise and game mechanics, so I passed on that one, but I think they’ve been rather nice supporting both Necromunda and Titanicus – these have had regular releases at least once a quarter. It seems that AI will be having releases at the half-year marks in the year.

 

 

[limburger 21705xp 1]

@rastamann I think Speed Freaks was one of those ‘model + game’ boxed sets. Or at least … that’s why I got it, because I liked the Ork vehicles.

I think Killteam was a great idea, but I wished they had put more effort in developing the factions and backgrounds (a list of ten ‘random’ names isn’t worthy to be called a name generator IMHO).
Some got all the toys (spacemarines) and others either got basic choices or simply did not fit the concept (Imperial Guard elite commando’s ?).  And not all of the allowed troops made sense.

Harlequins were made to be Killteam only and are weird as an army (especially in big games), but somehow they only got the least amount of attention. They’re more or less the polar opposite of Imperial Guard who tend to operate in huge numbers.
Orks kind of do, but they’ve got a few proper big ones that can work as a killteam (or until GW decides to do OrcCry /GorkaMorka ;-)).

[rastamannParticipant 2735xp 0]

@limburger, I tend to instabuy most ork stuff from GW, regrettably for my wallet 🙂 🙂 Speed Freeks was that case as well. I’ve heard good things about the game, but the box is still untouched…

I agree that Kill Team would benefit greatly from a more necromunda-y type of campaign experience and narrative creation tools other than what they came up with. It really was a missed opportunity, though I feel we’ve not heard the last of it. I too am looking very much forward to GorkaMorka 202x 🙂

[limburger 21705xp 0]

@rastamann which is one of the reasons I backed the recent ‘starbreach’ kickstarter as it is sort of the same size game as Killteam combined with Bolt-Action style mechanics.

And yeah … lots of things to unbox for my killteams, because I do like that they can be sort of a ‘basic’ entry level to a new faction in 40k itself. Even if you don’t play killteam the boxed killteams were cheap and effective combo of a faction unit + terrain.
And you need lots of terrain in skirmish games.

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