3D printing and the enviroment #teamseas

[limburger 21679xp 1]

anything decomposes … all it needs is time …
And a reminder : oil is ‘plant based’, but you wouldn’t want to dump it in the river …
As such I wouldn’t be too sure if those “plant based” resins are actually safer or more environmentally friendly than the ‘regular’ stuff.

And the standard they claim (EN 71-3:2013 ) … is basically telling they’re not using lead :

“NEN-EN 71-3+A2 specifies requirements and test methods for the migration of aluminium, antimony, arsenic, barium, boron, cadmium, chromium (III), chromium (VI), cobalt, copper, lead, manganese, mercury, nickel, selenium, strontium, tin, organic tin and zinc from toy materials and from parts of toys. Packaging materials are not considered to be part of the toy unless they have intended play value. “

It sounds nice and legal, but it literally is the same standard that any substance used for toys has to comply with.
It is *NOT* environmental safety as such. You probably could put a 71-3 standard sticker on 99% of the GW minis and paints.
The fact that they don’t even link to test results or any other formal documentation telling you what they’ve done and how they are complying with said standard should be enough to tell you it is pure marketing.

Adding taxes to make stuff more expensive isn’t going to help one bit.
It’s not like the governments across the world won’t use that as free money to spend on silly stuff like moving from Brussels to Strassbourg and back again every month ….

It’s an expensive hobby as is and it’s not like people will stop buying crap just because you make them pay more.
It hasn’t stopped people smoking, despite taxes being about 90% of the cost these days.
It hasn’t stopped people driving, despite fuel being 50+% taxes.

There are techniques that could be used to add invisible identifiers to plastic.
Except they also require the waste disposal facilities to adopt them, which creates a chicken&egg paradox.

The basic plastic collection they do in these parts is so confusing that I just dump it in the regular garbage.
Never mind that the collected plastic gets burned anyway if they can’t identify it.

The core problem is that there are too many plastic variants out there that we as consumers can’t identify.
Even within our own hobby we don’t get an ingredients list of the stuff used so how the heck are we going to safely dispose that stuff anyway ?

It’s taken decades to get rid of lead in metal minis … and that didn’t happen because our industry gave a damn.
It happened because lead in general was banned and they had to adopt.

You’d think that with that kind of experience the 3D printing industry would be lightyears ahead of the game by ensuring their products would be safe for humans/environment.
And yet all the attention is focused on how easy it is to make new shiny crap with the hardware.

If safety is given a tought it’s because the materials used make the thing stink.
People wouldn’t even be using air filters if the resin hadn’t smelled …
Heck, most are still convinced that it is ‘safe’ because they can’t smell the toxins.

[tankkommanderParticipant 6413xp 0]

“Adding taxes to make stuff more expensive isn’t going to help one bit.”

Adding a small ‘tax’ on single use plastic shopping bags has reduced the number of bags used significantly.

So a packaging tax could be an effective method of reducing excessive packaging, or a switch to non plastic packaging.

I don’t think we will see any larger YT channel jump on this. Why? Because they exist to shill for the hobby companies. They rely on the free stuff. So they are not going to bite the hand that feeds by asking awkward questions about the environmental damage that all this plastic is having, or about labour rights in china, or poor wages for workers, or any of the other dirty little subjects.

[tankkommanderParticipant 6413xp 0]

“I’m sure the amount of waste from the hobby is miniscule compared to, say, single use packaging for take out.”

So doing nothing is okay? Follow this logic down the rabbit hole and see where it leads you.

[blinky465 17028xp 2]

An LCD display with say 1000-hours in it isn’t going to last that long before having to be replaced

I’ve an Anycubic Photon and am still on the original screen, after almost two years. I’m not sure that I’m anywhere near the 1,000 hour mark. And I consider myself to have printed “a lot” of minis (enough that I gave a 2ft cube box of minis away to a local gaming cafe a few months ago and still have more minis in the “to do” pile than on my “done” shelves).

A single “print run” produces on average eight minis and takes about four hours (there or there abouts). So at 1,000 hours, I’d have printed about 2,000 miniatures. Irrespective of how long that takes, that’s  hell of a lot of minis! I’m a single-user, not a miniature-printing factory; 1,000 hours is going to keep me going for years!

I think the problem with LCDs on 3d printers is that many have been broken through misuse, rather than burning out through over exposure to UV light (so few ever get anywhere near the 1,000 hour mark). This isn’t the fault of the machine, or the technology, but ignorance of the user. If users learned to look after their screens, they’d last longer (in the same way, if everyone driving a car crashed one and disposed of it once a week, we’d say the problem is with the drivers, not the cars).

So – at the risk of upsetting a few people – replacing a 5″ screen every two years or more *compared to some of the other disposal issues we have as a society* I’m not going to lose much sleep over it. It’ll have lasted longer than the kettle I bought from a supermaket last year which is already failing, for example.

Of far more concern – environmentally – is boxes and sprues (which, by weight, make up about two-thirds of the weight of plastic in a box of minis, which is then thrown away). If we’re going to get so critical that *zero* waste is the target (rather than aiming to reduce it) we should all go back to lead pewter miniatures (though we’ll never hear the end of it from @avernos who will insist he was right all along).

For me, 3d printing is far more ecologically sound than buying boxes and boxes of “plastic crack”. I’ve *reduced* my waste by stopping buying plastic minis. The “product” goes from creator (digital 3d artist) to the consumer (me, printing minis) without the need for power-hungry factories to make the minis, “exploited workers” (as tankkommander referred to), packaging, shipping, warehousing, onward delivery from the retailer (with its own additional packaging). By weight, I dispose of about 35% of the resin I print (throwing away the “scaffold” support structures) and maybe an LCD screen every two? three? years. It’s not zero-waste. But it’s multiple degrees better – environmentally – than buying retail minis.

Save the planet – get a 3d printer 😉

 

 

[captainventanusParticipant 4936xp 0]

How much wear there will be on a 3D printer depends on what your requirements are. If you want to print out a few 10mm KoW/Warmaster armies a few hours will be enough to get you months for of stuff. If you want to print out a Battlefleet Gothic fleet its going to take you a lot longer.

In the first month of having my Mars I got through 98 hours of printing as I was gaining experience and fine-tuning a few designs. In the second month I pretty much did nothing as I was away for work a lot. In the third month with everything set up as I want it I will easily get through another 100+ hours.

I don’t see that as a problem and have factored in wear and tear. That coupled with other consumables like resin, gloves, clearer, the packaging etc. doesn’t make the process particularly green. And most printers used for private purposes are at the end of a long supply chain from China. As I said somebody with the right knowledge could work out exactly the footprints are.

Printers are getting faster and these later generation ones are using components better suited to the task so have more longevity it them too.

[blinky465 17028xp 1]

@captainventanus – absolutely spot on; but just about everything (electronic) manufactered has a carbon trail leading all the way back to China (although based in Nottingham, and they used to spin-cast Citadel miniatures there, quite a few GW minis are also produced in China now – and almost all their print/packaging comes from there, according to their investors reports).

So, as I see it,  you can buy a 3d printer with a single supply path, or mutliple boxes of plastic, each of which is manufactured and shipped from the other side of the world – if everything has a trail back to China (component costs, packaging + shipping) then fewer trips = better, right?

On consumables, it drives me crazy watching Youtube videos where people whack on a pair of nitrile gloves, use them for 30 seconds, then take them off and throw them in the bin. I use (reusable) marigolds – and maybe changed them two or three times in two years! The resin is turned into miniatures (and about 30%-35% by weight discarded after curing). I’ve used a single coffee jar of acetone for about a year now. The amount of “consumable” going to waste is pretty low with 3d-printed minis (compared to plastic boxed sets).

It’s not waste-free, and it’s not “green” but it’s not as “toxic” as many people (usually who don’t have a 3d printer) worry about either. Obviously, if you’re printing 24-hours-a-day your hardware will wear out and need replacing more quickly than those of us who print a couple of times, maybe once a week (or fortnight). But that will also produce *a lot* of minis (the comparable “green” cost of manufacturing, packaging and shipping factory-made, plastic counterparts from the other side of the world, many many times over would be much higher?)

[ced1106Participant 6224xp 1]

> So doing nothing is okay?

“Doing nothing” does not mean you don’t reduce how much pollution you create. But you should reduce it in ways that have more impact than others. Dunno where you’re located, but, in the USA, we have an entire political football created around an environmental concern, when it’s more obvious that you cut back on how much plastic (and paper) you’re using, take-out, hobby, or otherwise.

[blinky465 17028xp 0]

It feels like we’re in danger of comparing two things (at least, when talking about 3d printing).

ABS filament isn’t recycleable (easily) and PLA is a corn-starch based product (I think it smells lovely when printing, like sugary popcorn). We all seem to agree that resin is “full of nasty toxins” but nobody *actually* knows what goes into it – other than the labels are a bit scary and it comes from China (where they don’t have strict environmental laws) so it’s probably full of chinesium or something.

BUT – as long as a 3d printed mini has acrylic paint on it, and is sitting proudly on a display shelf, it’s not “environmental waste”. It’s only waste once it’s thrown in the bin!

If we’re going to get hung up on the “carbon footprint of creating the printer” (as discussed earlier in the thread) then we’ve wandered off the original topic which was “what do you do with your failed prints, left over supports and test prints” (and for a true comparison with boxed sets would need to investigate the carbon footprint of setting up a factory!).

The truth is, most of it goes in the bin. I probably consider myself an exception to most 3d printer users because I’ve been tinkering with them for more than 10 years and *have* built homebrew plastic grinders, made shonky injection moulding machines and built machines to recycle 3d prints into printer filament (even if the end result isn’t as good as “virgin” filament). After all, it’s still just a thermoplastic. But I understand that most people haven’t.

So, yeah, I “chug it (cured resin supports) in the bin”.

But do so knowing I’m throwing far less in the bin than I would if I was buying the same number of minis in retail boxed sets! And until I bin my collection of minis, the only environment they’re impacting is my own living space 😉

[sundancer 42925xp 0]

Spam bot alert!

please review that users lestrbeth  posting history!

@tgu3 @nakchak

[grantinvanman 2164xp 0]

@tgu3 SPAMbot alert! @ralfkortig usual MO for a spam-a-lam-a-ding-dong.

 

Also: @lestrbeth – nothing but SPAM

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