Cult Of Games XLBS: Is Sci-Fi Wargaming Boring?
November 15, 2020 by warzan
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Happy Sunday! This was a great topic. A couple of points I’ll throw into the mix; I’ve never seen a game system succeed in the long term with less than 4 factions. It’s why Terminator, Aliens, Starship Troopers and the like failed. Sci-fi warfare makes very little sense. Space warfare would be very similar to WWII in the pacific. Fleet warfare is what matters. In fact it’s the only thing that matters. Fleets can bypass planets or if there is no opposing fleet you simply pound an enemy army into dust. The armies needed to conquer a planet would be… Read more »
happy sunday
Was there ever a time in 40k where you could say Marines are the Goodies, Chaos are the Baddies, etc? Surely its always been these guys are the Baddies, and these other guys are the Badder Baddies? If anything hasn’t the recent fluff progression made the Imperium more into the Goodies than they were previously?
Unless I’m mistaken, 1st ed 40k was somewhat asymmetric when it first started; when it started I believe it did best when there was a Gamesmaster overseeing things because of al the wild stuff that could happen and did best when you played a scenario rather than rocking up with a set number of points worth of minis and playing something generic conditionwise. Regarding Gerry’s comment about all the gizmos in Marine armour compared to the bare bones equipment of a Guardsman not being taken into account, I think its a product of the degree of abstraction/streamlining in the rules.… Read more »
And yet StarWars Legion has rules for hostile environments and gear … 40k never focussed on that aspect beyond the casual mention of death worlds. As such it is weird that Spacemarines with all their built-in tech don’t get to take advantage of night/darkness against a foe that doesn’t have such gadgets. Same applies to the Eldar. And here’s another thing that 40k fails to model : the simple fact that Eldari are in decline. They can’t fight battles the way the Imperial guard / Orks / Hivefleet do. The only way the rules have modelled this is by making… Read more »
As I’m fond of saying: in the grim darkness of the far future everyone’s a dick.
Justin’s opening sentence resolved the argument for me, in that it’s a matter of current interests. But I do prefer a middle ground to a good argument ? Warren seems to be a man of cyclical interests. I say this because I am too. I get hugely invested in one thing, only to wake up one day and to have it turn to ash in my mouth. The reason the hobby has saved me from myself is that I can cycle around a wide range of subjects WITHIN the hobby without ever having to leave the hobby. I accept this… Read more »
“Sci-fi writers are almost compelled to hide their influences in order to create something new, but those influences need to be there under the surface to make it familiar enough to be popular.”
Well said and, oh, so very true.
.
You’re making a great point here. ; )
@warzan Have a look at Stangrunt 2 it has some interesting mechanics in it
https://shop.groundzerogames.co.uk/rules.html
@brennon have a look at Kyromek
https://www.shop.scotiagrendel.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=217_218_3
Sci-Fi is certainly an over-exploited genre like Fantasy. Both allow modellers and game designers a free pass when it comes to having to stick to some semblance of reality. Many end up being poor derivatives of Star Wars or Tolkein universes, and I guess that’s usually where the issues stem from – a lack of fluff/background that holds up. Most new KS tend to be nice models looking for a home/ruleset. Every now and then someone creates a world and aesthetic that is then presented well in a game form that is interesting – Infinity, the DxC games or Core… Read more »
@Warzan: If, as Justin suggests, you aren’t up to full-fat ruleset Infinity, do remember that there is now Code One, and Defiance is imminent to scratch the sci-fi dungeon crawling itch. That’ll make 5 games in the Infinity universe, often with interchangeable models.
Hopefully Stargrave the sci fi version of frostgrave coming early next year will be the gap filler of a generic Sci fi system people are looking for
Also is there anything you can do about the streaming of the xlbs show as it’s took me 40 minutes to watch 18 minutes of the show, due to buffering and stopping, and that’s with trying all available formats, although 240 & 360 aren’t there to choose from this week which is odd
Just renewed my subscription and this is a problem most weeks
Happy Sunday CoGs. For me,” generic sci-fi ” never grabs my attention as much as a ” generic fantasy ” setting does.I turned my back on 40k sci-fi back in late 6th ed because of the rules rather than feeling bored with it,i could not face what they had done to ” my game ” with the need for multiple books and a very bloated rules system. I do think that certain IP’s lend themselves to a skirmish ( or fleet based ) game over a bigger setting.Star Trek,Aliens,BSG,Starship Troopers,Dune,the Terminator universe are the bigger / more well known ones… Read more »
Happy Sunday!
In the background Emperor Palpatine cackles “Warren’s journey to the Dark Side is complete!”
Happy Sunday all
I’m not sure sci-fi is boring in as much it’s the scale of the game. Most Sci-fi games are 28mm single figure/warband type games, and thus due to the mechanics of such a game most of them just seem to merge into each other (perhaps making everything seem a bit bland). It’s interesting to see how the possible ideas to get back into sci-fi games were all about not playing games in that scale of operation (ie fleet action etc). Basically most wargames once you get into WW2 play like each other. So WW2, Moderns, Sci-Fi all have AFVs, AT… Read more »
I think a problem with a lot of games is trying to
A. Trying to cram to many figures on the table
B. Using too small a table. If a game suggests a 3×3 use a 4×4 or a 5×5 and get a it of maneuvering happening
I like several sci-fi games for the way is plays or appeals to me visually but when you start reading the fluff and you know your history a bit it is just some rehash of it or a logical progression the way the world could be going which isn’t necessarily a bad thing as long as you like it. I have left 40k behind me for many years now as it feels more that they adjust or make fluff to get sales and in the meantime making your models redundant or useless or introduce new things so you would buy… Read more »
41:15 – any sci-fi games we can think of off the top of our heads that take asymmetric….?
(me, screaming): Spacec Hulk isn’t symmetrical, Space Hulk is still very popular. It’s the 40k world playing out the “industrial” type sci-fi Ben says he prefers so much.
It feels very much like this discussion centred on @warzan Warran mistaking a dislike of forced “balance” in games with a dislike for sci-fi. Just about every argument he made against sci-fi games in the opening ramble, I fully agreed with – for fantasy games!
Can you name any Scifi Wargames?
Space Hulk is a good example but it is a boardgame and out of production. 🙂 – So wasn’t really on the top of my head in this one. But as a basis for a homebrew system, it’s certainly a good start.
And no my issue is with a lot in Scifi, not just balance. Lore and games not matching etc – It’s a tricky set of issues to get across 🙂
I get the feeling it comes down to how far you can suspend your belief. I prefer sci-fi over fantasy because I can understand how a lot of the “lore” could be feasibly possible (like Ben, I prefer the “industrial” believable sci-fi lore rather than the grey aliens with psychic powers lore). Maybe it’s because of my technology-based background? I can’t get into fantasy because it’s just make believe and magic! For me, fantasy games are “boring” because I just can’t connect with the rules that make up the world; anything goes when you can have magic – “industrial sci-fi”… Read more »
I think it’s my knowledge of technology that leaves me struggling with Sci-Fi – (Completely the opposite of you lol) I see sci-fi ‘tech’ and battles etc that just makes no sense whatsoever. Take the boat in recent Mandalorian – when your entire civilization has wise spread antigrav – why on earth would you have a boat? – its there to be cool, and I can’t help but see it’s just there to be cool lol The comments have been a treasure trove for me – I’m picking through them to see if I can navigate a way out of… Read more »
Yay the XLBS.
40K may have dull gameplay and overstuffed lore keeping codex sales going, but there’s more to sci-fi out there and GWs corporate box-shifting approach to gameplay isn’t a great example of the hobby overall these days. You could say the same for games derived from a film or TV franchise- they rarely produce deep gameplay as they tend to bank on name recognition to make their money. Generic sci-fi? Rogue Stars comes to mind- my space pirates band going up against someone’s robot uprising band isn’t a hard concept to buy into. Or Zone Raiders with its anime scrap-hunter aesthetic.… Read more »
Que the Michel Jackson song?
@avernos makes a great point about night fighting in 40k and how it affects Astartes and Imperial Guard the same way, because once upon a time it very specifically did. Anyone remember back in the days of Rogue Trader & 2nd Ed? Space Marines had a bit of kit described as “Auto Senses” built into their points cost that- 9 times out of ten – had no impact on game play, but once you started throwing in dawn assaults, night fighting missions, or anything involving smoke & gas effects, now where regular troops find themselves handicapped the post-human supersoldiers have… Read more »
I stopped myself listing all the things that made units (and armies for that matter) different from one another and interesting in earlier editions of WH40K that have been removed or effectively removed from the gameplay in later editions. It’s a long long list.
It’s official Warren is looseing it?
Warren IS space Napoleon.
The thing about 40K you read story’s about a marines running around killing cultists like a combine through a wheat field then you play the game an they are going down like fly’s.
Just nuke then from orbit @warzan ?
Its the only way to be sure lol 😉
Yup for sure.
Happy Sunday all. Do we think that the problem with Sci-fi is about the lack of diversity in the armies and models. In sci fi we have the whole universe to play with and we basically only get bipeds or insects. We could have anything. Lets have a species of giant worms on the battlefield, a battlefield filled with angry sentient birds who fight entirely differently. An army of trees? An army of parasites that just hang about on one giant unit that needs protected. Why is it everyone in the universe has given the exact same type of technology… Read more »
That’s battle damage on the sword isn’t it Ben ?
i’d suggest if you want to actually play scifi, play conquest as spires?
Sci-fi is just a skin for a game, much like fantasy or even some historical. The engine underneath just has a different shell thrown over it. I’ve played 40k with bolt action, its a better game for it btw.