Cult Of Games XLBS: Rules SHOULD Be The Most Important Part Of Our Hobby! Do You Agree?
May 16, 2021 by warzan
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Happy Sunday!
5am is way too early to be hearing about @warzans vibrator
Happy Sunday!
Damn, almost a double-first… not that I care about such things…
Happy Sunday! Not to ruin Warren’s day out to a sex shop but they make exactly what he needs for Paintball guns. But be careful, you’ll shoot your eye out!
I think Warren is particularly fascinated by the idea of his sexy guns at this point haha
Ben. You gotta play ASOIAF. It is one of the best games out there now. It’s a perfect mix of miniature,card, and board game. And to top it off you dont have to build a million miniatures. Just prime and paint homrboy!
Happy sunday, guys, and I’m totally with you on the issue of gaming rules and share Gerry’s view that it seems like the minis often appear to be the reason why people buy into a game rather than the rules. Without good rules, a game has no long-time appeal to me, no matter how good the minis look. Now, someone might claim that what makes rules good is a matter of personal taste, and he might be right. Still, there are two things which a game must provide with regards to its rules and mechanics for me to even consider… Read more »
I certainly agree about what rules should offer. If you have very few choices in a game then you’re not really solving the “puzzle” that most of us like.
I think there is a place for the gun-line etc in an army, but as long as comes with the caveat that you also need to protect yourself. I am a Dwarf player after all – but I liked having to come up with how I was going to tackle flanking units and those that appeared in my rear!
Dwarves are allowed an exception regarding passive play styles. 😀
The key to encouraging pro-activity lies in creating scenarios that reward it. Give them something to go for.
Yes, rules writers need to make more. But, and this comes from someone who’s put out a few rule sets myself, writers also need to step up their game. The rules for most games I see nowadays are a sad echo of the rule sets from the 80s and 90s. Everything from rule book organization, cross-referencing, a decent index, clear examples, exception clauses and footnotes, to simple typos. I won’t embarass anyone, but a rule book I was looking in just today has incredible typos in the base stats of the units that nearly make it unplayable. I had to… Read more »
I think a thoroughly tested set of rules is a very good way forward for a lot of companies. You can never make a set of rules entirely watertight – no plan survives contact with the wargamer – but I do think that a lot of time should be spent investing in more playtesting and such. My main thing with rules though is that I don’t want it to be a textbook – that’s boring. I want it to explain the game in a clear, concise way with plenty of diagrams that illustrate what you’re trying to reveal in the… Read more »
@Brennon – I would agree in principle that you can never make a rule set watertight. But you can get a helluva lot closer than most people think I feel. Two tweeks ago on a stream a rules question came up with a 44-year old game – The Arab Israeli Wars – and there was the answer, right there in rules section S.E.1.c. Black and white. All it takes is effort, a lit more effort than too many (certainly not all) rules writers are putting in these days. I also agree 100% on playtesting. Darkstar was plautested for 6.5 years… Read more »
I knew Jim would chime in on this! 🙂
All points spoken are valid from the standpoint of someone who writes gaming rules.
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.
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But, I think, fluff is needed to understand the vision of the world that the rules are intended for. Don’t you think?
I was always told by writing instructors that you should never assume your reader understands anything other than what you put before them.
But, YMMV……….
Good points and questions, @templar007. For me, fluff is not needed in the rule book. In my world, “fluff” is called “history” and it’s already included in other books written and peer-reviewed by people that are going to be better qualified to speak on a given topic than most rule book writers. A happy exception might be the highly-recommended Battlegroup books originally produced by IronFist Publishing. The background is all in a front couple of chapters, so you don’t have to trip over it every time you’re trying to a look up a rule or chart. It’s still in there… Read more »
With you on this @oriskany, heck a lot of rules are very ‘samey’ , very basic to hit, saving roll, etc. Admittedly they are bit simpler, still remember the 1st set of WW2 naval rules, were trigonometry was needed to work out gunnery, which really came down to did you have a 1% or 5% chance most of the time, not to mention the weird little circular card computer for working out hit chances in a western game ( think it was ‘Once upon a time in the west’ which I still have in a cupboard somewhere.) I did like… Read more »
“but he keeps tinkering with it so never know which one is current.”
This was the great fear when it came to Darkstar. People badgered and pushed on me to write these rules for years. Not only was I just too lazy 😀 but I also knew that once your write down a rules set, that’s pretty much it. Yes, new editions can come out, but you don’t want to do that too often. You wind up with the fatigue you see in certain edition-heavy games like ||REDACTED||, ||REDACTED||, and especially ||REDACTED||.
Happy Sunday,
the sun has risen and it is a wonderful day. on such a day there is nothing better than to watch, thats right, THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER MADE
Didn’t know Where Eagles Dare was on today.
No!
That was easy.
Just want to clarify from our discussion that there’s nothing wrong with being drawn to a game by the miniatures and the world – it’s what works well for me haha, but I think that it’s very good to have a solid set of rules backing it up so it doesn’t feel like I’ve wasted my money on all the toy soldiers haha
You dropped a bollock there @warzan – Mannequin Skywalker would have justified any price!
Happy Sunday
As a rules-writer (I’m Craig of The Ministry of Gentlemanly Warfare) I don’t think gamers realise just how much effort goes into producing a set of workable rules. Charles and I take, on average, two years to develop, play-test, write, play-test, finalize, and play-test again, a new rule set. Then, because like most rules writers we are independents, we have to manage the layout, photos, artwork, proofing, reproofing, printing and marketing of our games. Thank the dice gods that we don’t do this because we want to make a fortune, or even a living. We do it because we are… Read more »
I am certainly thankful for you folks taking the time and putting so much effort into your rules for folks to enjoy because, well, you like it – that is pretty darn good as a labour of love. I get all your points for sure – although I’d say that even just someone sitting in front of a phone camera and talking about the rules, giving a few examples, is a pretty good start for a “how to play”. It might not seem like it, but most people would actually enjoy something like that haha. I am also partial to… Read more »
As I said Ben – awkward introverts 😀
I do get your point though and I’m working my way up towards something like that. This last year has made it difficult as I have had no face-to-face time with Charles or our regular play-testing comrades in which to create a video 🙁
Another fun thing about being a small independent is the sheer amount of time you have to spend on social media supporting the players. It can be a couple of hours a day, but that is also enjoyable.
I’m still powering my way through the book at the moment and enjoying it very much, although to be honest I own the 1st edition books so you would’ve had to work hard to upset me, I hope to corral Justin into getting a game or two on camera at some point over the summer, the next few weeks are hectic though so not sure when that will happen as I’ll need to finish off painting minis for both warbands
You are very kind – thank you 🙂
If you need any assistance, just let me know.
Just wanted to say, “Well Done”!
Thanks for all your time and effort and I for one have enjoyed your work and am glad you chose to share your work with all of us. The hoops that one has to jump through to get something ready from professional printing are far more work than most people think.
I gladly pay full price for a well-written rulebook. Sadly, I’m betting that authors don’t see much of that money.
Keep writing and publishing Sir! 🙂
You are very welcome 🙂
As for seeing much money, I am corresponding from a villa on Monaco, where I am cleaning the pool for Mr McCullough.
lol
Yup, I was afraid of that! ??
So the show started…
“Do you know what that is?” with Warzan wriggling his bit of plastic in front of the camera
And naturally I went “P90 magazine? though what is that handle on top of it?”
Too many years watching Stargate – the P90 is quite the go-to weapon haha
I went P90 magazine too, then i realised it wasnt spring loaded.
Model railway folk do use vibrators under tricky bits of track. If a loco gets stuck, a quick bzzt of a strategically-placed vibrator could get it moving again without the dreaded hand of god ruining the magic at the model railway show. I think they use mobile phone buzzers (or so they claim).
People are influenced by flashy and shiny bits. Minis are the flashy and shiny bits of our hobby. Companies sell products and they need to make sure they sell as much as possible. So they focus on the sexy bits that sell … and it works, because the average consumer is both ignorant and has the memory of a gold fish. Everyone always claims to value good rules, but too few walk the walk. Sometimes it is because of practical reasons (the popular game with crap rules has a bigger player base), but I’d argue that it is easier to… Read more »
My main contention with GW’s rules is that with each edition they fix some rules, but break others so that they can be fixed with the next edition. This was my experience with 40K between 3rd ed, when I started, to when I bailed the first time, somewhere around 4th/5th ed.
I’m not sure that is GW’s intention. Their problem is twofold: 1. Every army has numerous rules exceptions built in to support their never-ending fluff, so it does not matter what you change in the main rules it is going to bend or break another special rule somewhere. They really are victims of their own success. 2. Very cool figure sculptors. I baled out during the introduction of sixth edition, I really could not keep up. Still love their universe, and play skirmish games using my own rules, but as I get older I find that I have limited mental… Read more »
I’d argue that they ‘fix’ and ‘break’ stuff with every new edition, because they don’t have a clear plan for the engine and only ever look at subsystems. As a result every ‘fix’ results in different sub-systems breaking or developing flaws … especially in a competitive environment that rewards exploits. Compare this to Infinity … Corvus Belli could explain what rules were going to change, how they were going to change and what they were attempting to fix. Looking at 40k 9th edition and the AoS 3rd edition … and all I see is a bit of mumbling on a… Read more »
Lol you should get fluorescent pellet ball’s for night battles @warzan
Ivana Trump is Rosebud?
Thanks for another great episode. The XLBS show is one of the main things I look forward to from the Interwebz each week. Really boosts the start of my day.
A skeleton giant @warzan?
Since there so many 3D sculptors with Patreons, I do wonder if a rules designer could be funded under a similar model. It would seem, I don’t know for sure, that a sculptor can turnaround a set of mini designs quicker than a rules designer could turn out a set of rules… But what if that designer was up for using an agile methodology in the production of those set of rules. I struck the term “agile methodology” in the software production sphere, where a team of people produce code in smaller chunks than traditional methodologies did. That meant it… Read more »
Hmm…. I think that is an interesting idea. Especially since more and more creative people (musicians, comic artists etc) do that to cut out the middle man. But since money is finite it would limit people in how many creators can be supported. I need to have a think on this.
That might depend on the number of middle people you are already paying….
You might find you could support more endeavours when you aren’t paying people that think they are providing you value but aren’t…
I mean, do you want fire that can be fitted nasally? What colour should the wheel be?
Happy Sunday!
I thought Ben was going to snort tea out his nose when Warren was talking about his vibrator
I would reckon most rules writers are part time and financially wise not worth giving up their day jobs to go full time over
For example Sam Mustafa is a very productive rules writer but his day job is a Professor of history. I would be surprised if all the sales of all his rules equalled his yearly salary.
Relaxation is the most important part of my hobby. But I do agree with the premise that rules writers should get paid sufficiently for their role in the hobby industry.
@Gerry is one of the missing wizard’s of middle earth.
I see your vampire is waiting for the salon’s to open up for his wax treatment Ben lol great work on the skellybobs an team rocket? Lol.
Eldar love beeds Lol
hmmm………….RPG players in need of a DM! I feel a distrubance in the D&D force. Shall I answer the call? I shall write something up. I’m sure many others are doing the same as well. But should I be considered for possible consideration of this event…………….. I do have a fully functioning ‘Beast-of-War/OTT WEEKENDER’ studio set ready for broadcasting. (as seen on the 40k Hobby Weekend event) But I’m sure I’ll enjoy watching the event regardless of whether or not I’m considered. I have rewatched all of the other RPG events this team has filmed and published! Well Done on… Read more »