Weekender XLBS: When Should Companies Maintain Rulesets?
October 6, 2019 by crew
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Happy Sunday Brothers and Sisters of CoG! ========== It’s the XLBS Show ========== Turn up the volume, put your feet up, and enjoy some hobby goodness! If the recent ‘Pointless Views’ is a precursor to this show, then hold on tight! For the record, I agree with Gerry. Companies need to get the rules right before they offer up a game for sale. Enough of this beta testing at the expense of the players. Question of the day….How often would you want updates to your rulesets? My personal opinion is that rules, (for large complex games) should be solid enough… Read more »
How about a MAJOR update/edition change every 5 years?
Happy Sunday!!!
I think this comes back to the discussion the other day in that if companies playtested the rules then maybe a new rule book every 5 odd years to include any little bits of errata that crop up would be more than sufficient
This
How would you see the playtesting being done?
Something that solid a ruleset, in this day and age, with the size of the audience there is now for tabletop games, compared to say the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s….
I think that the cost of that ruleset would cause people an issue, especially if the playtesters had to be paid. Depending upon the number of factions and options of course.
Play testing is usually done by the people writing the rules then asking people at a club to try them and then expanding that out to people who want to playtest them. All that should only take 6 months to a year to be and yo get a pretty tight ruleset together
To be honest I’ve never heard of playtesters being paid
Could be one of the reasons why some rulesets aren’t so good. I spent 30 years in software development… One “law” that I hold on to from those days… Someone that designs a system to be completely foolproof underestimates the ingenuity of complete fools. The bigger the audience, the better the testing, of anything, needs to be. When I started out I was writing code for individual consumers. I’d get them to test it, after teaching them the principals of testing. They of course would be under time pressure from the rest of their job and would do the best… Read more »
“Someone that designs a system to be completely foolproof underestimates the ingenuity of complete fools”
Amen!!
some of the games from the 70s – 90s are better rulesets still than what we see today. I don’t think it’s the size of the audience that has changed that, but rather the feeling they have to add more mechanics and be cleverer and shinier than other rulesets to make them stand out. It leads to conflicts of rules within the system, incongruities creep in and bloat develops.
Some of the recent stand out systems of recent years for me are the ones that have cut rules back to the bear necessities to make it a playable and enjoyable game.
discuss.
😉
One of my favourite games is still Armati. Very simple game with fixed army lists apart from maybe being able to swap in and out the odd unit but the core of the army was always the same. Basic impetus does this now as well One page rules does nicely as it’s very simple game at heart relying on the players to make the correct tactical choices in the game rather than endless spe ial characters with special rules, Squad hammer by Nordic Weasel games foes this very well I’ve bee told I wonder if more games should go to… Read more »
But were any of them designed to support the weight of a larger corporation, like a GW, FFG, WoTC, etc?
Why does Apple design its phones to die after a year or two, when they could easily live a lot longer? To sell the customer a new one….
It really is about revenue streams to pay overheads, tax, wages, salaries and dividends.
Otherwise, gaming would still be the cottage industry it used to be – perhaps a bit of a generalisation – but not have the player base that the big corporations have helped build….
Without them, would OTT even exist?
The companies you mention I have no real experience with except with GW and that was many years ago. What little I know about the rest is that it seems that you have to keep buying to stay up to date with the rules etc. Its not part of my wargaming hobby that I have any interest of being part of
Any company that does not pay its playtesters is going to get exactly the kind of quality they paid for …
In 1 year your community has moved to the next new thing. They won’t notice the update you’ve got planned.
Rules updates and releases aren’t merely done to fix rules.
They also exist as a marketing tool to remind people that the company still exists …
Change things or produce things too quickly and people complain, eg Warcry product roll out.
Under produce or don’t respond to people’s expectations and get complaints of this game is not supported or is dead…
It can be a hard thing striking a happy medium…. One could end up in jail 😉
yep …
I don’t envy the small developers in the industry.
They’re damned if they do and they’r damned if they don’t
Happy Sunday!
I’ve no problem with companies keeping their system up-to-date and fit-for-purpose; it becomes an issue when they cynically do this as a major revenue stream. As an example, Steamforged have ruined Guildball for me as an occasional player with their annual seasons involving: New rulebook, retired models, new card packs and even tokens. the more teams you have the more it costs.
I agree – completely given up any interest in Guildball which is a shame. Similar ‘rebounder’ problem that Infinity has for me.
When Guild Ball dropped hard copy rules I lost heart in them. I have nine teams in my studio and my wife and I used to play a match at least once a week. It just felt like they gave up on being professional. We have since decided to ignore any rules that aren’t in print proper (aka we’re sticking with the third rulebook). I just won’t travel to any tournaments that use the unprinted rules that change with the blowing of the wind! Also, I’ve not bought any new teams in over a year as a result of the… Read more »
I’d much prefer a Kepi to a Fez. Both are Civil War hats but both saw much wider use than just that. the Kepi was basically the Military hat after the Shako went out. Google “Zouaves” Warren you’ll love them. @warzan ah my friend you’ve been caught out by stats. There are lies, damn lies and statistics. Do you know the faster growing demographic getting STD’s and AIDS? The Elderly. (Made up numbers) Because 10 had it last year and 100 have it this year so there was a growth of 1000%. Compare that to 50 Million Young People having… Read more »
Hear, hear!
just wait and see ’till SAGA goes mainstream and a tournament scene happens. 😉
However it is true that some games/genres appear to be more immune/resistant to this abuse than others.
I suppose the nature of the company and the community has something to do with that.
The real trick is to maintain that state as the player base grows.
Happy Sunday! Ice Dungeon Ideas: * Need to take an item, gained from a previous adventure, to the ice caves to be frozen and only the breath from an ice dragon will do it. Maybe taking lava to cool, not into stone but crystallized. * The quest for the best Slurpee machine * The adventurers need scales and pelts from the denizens of the frozen north to make protective clothing to aid their next adventure, raiding treasure troves guarded by Viking Pirates! * Trap Idea: A long wide hall, empty save the frozen remains of running, frightened and shocked people.… Read more »
Happy Sunday
Stick with XLBS
It’s the name it should be thus for ever more..?
I would give this more votes if I could
This. Please don’t change the name. It will be worse than when Marathon became Snickers or Opal Fruits became Starburst. Changing names ruins products – I had faith that Jif would clean up the stains… Cif, wouldn’t trust it!
@lloyd the elder statesmen have spoken 🙂
You calling me an elf? ?
Kill the boy, Snow.
Here here!
So what do you think the name means? @robert
Personally, I would prefer the acronym was COGS – something directly related to the brand we are building. For you it maybe it just a name? For me there’s a whole strategy and brand that needs to be looked after and sometimes that means some change.
XLBS worked great at a time, but now has become a bit more cryptic as to it’s meaning and not in a good way from my perspective.
Nothing we have every changed has been without reason and thought. Change for change sake isn’t good but so is the inability to change.
Happy to ‘talk brand’ on the OTT front of house stuff @lloyd as we are directly effected by outside influences like YouTube and google policies etc
But ‘personally speaking’ here – what happens within the inner circle here is not about ‘brand’ at all because we don’t have to worry just as much about the outside world – just be part of something with the community…
At least that’s how I feel 🙂
#evenbrothersdisagreesometimes
“just be part of something with the community” – this is the point. Cult of Games has evolved into a community in it’s own right, it’s not just an extension of OTT, it’s not just extra content.
I’m lost….
Between BoW, OTT and CoGs…..
Am I one, two or all three? … I used to be a Backstager and knew where I was.
Reminds me of one of the bits at the start of “Monty Python’s Life of Brian”… Judean Peoples’ Front…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4
Oh, by the way, happy 50th Monty Python.
@hobbyhub I thought you where the splitter?
Feel free to work whatever “branding” massaging or chicanery that makes you feel better at night, but the word “Cult” will come back to bite you on the ass one day. Bored fundamentalists will eventually sharpen their pitchforks and use you as the boogeyman in their ongoing campaigns to “protect the moral fiber of society” or whatever justification they use to bring the media spotlight onto themselves.
It’s better to leave it as a jokey light-hearted nickname like we have been treating it recently.
Xtra Long Bull Shit – It is Ronseal, does exactly what it says on the tin.
@robert 😉
I wholeheartedly agree.
So what should it mean?
Xtra Large Brother Sauce of course @lloyd
They all wants it 😉
or…
Xtra Long Brother Sausage 😉
I didn’t know you were all related…
Exactly, it has no clear meaning, so it’s difficult to communicate what it is to new people.
That’s easy to fix @lloyd, you get to choose if its sauce or sausage 😉
shit
Personally I prefer Backstagers as that is something we can understand. We are getting backstage access to what is going on and that includes having little chats like this one. As to the COG, it isn’t a bad idea especially with all the other rebranding that have come about. @avernos did a great job discussing this on Little Wars TV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9v5rQCvzdw
If we are going to change maybe we can all be OTTers and @warzan can stay a bear.
Happy Sunday fellow CoG Members
Happy Sunday!
Simply call the show “Hobby Lodge” works on all levels!
(Royalties to @laughingboy who actually has a hobby lodge ? )
The idea that rules should be perfect at release is exactly that … an idea(l) and an illusion at best. (1) No amount of playtesting is going to prepare your rules for a community filled with rules lawyers and min/maxers. (2) No amount of testing is going to make the rules resistant to changes if the core design principles didn’t account for that. It’s one of the things I noticed when Infinity rules were updated. Every aspect got revisited with the intent of creating a solid foundation for updates. I think this is the problem of the GW’s in the… Read more »
Happy Sunday!
Not always their biggest fan, but can’t help but feel that GW have taken an unnecessary kicking for their rules here. Have they had issues in the past? Oh gods yes. I still remember the gap between the 3rd & 5th edition Space Wolf Codices. But since Age of Sigmar and 40k 8th edition they’ve shown a remarkable commitment – across their entire ranges – to getting an initial errata out for any new product within the first month, FAQ’s in the Spring & Autumn, and then a more encompassing errata once a year that includes any points rebalancing. I’ve… Read more »
Yes I agree – 40k 8th has the ability to make balance adjustments designed into the core of GWs plan. And the great thing is that if you list build in BattleScribe you don’t have to buy, or refer to, anything else! Just hit ‘update data’ and print for your game. GW have been a bit slow getting their own force builder out there, they’ve really missed a trick there.
I dream of a world where every game has an app for list building! Developers can tweak the points of units to balance the game periodically as feedback comes in from the community and trends are observed in tournament settings.
New rules editions don’t need to be too frequent if the game is solid to begin with and unit costs can be re balanced.
Great discussion this morning and I think an important one. Not so much that consensus can be gained on the specifics but more that game developers need to consider this when designing the game from the ground up. I think the frequency and mechanism for balance updates is going to vary game to game, but if you don’t plan it in then it leads to trouble. I actually disagree that keeping the points the same is the way to go. I think that points are exactly the thing that should be changed. I’ll explain why. There is one thing that… Read more »
I totally agree with what you are saying here. Put stats on cards for gaming reference, leave the points off and have a separate document for constructing army lists. Be that digital, physical or ideally both.
This way you don’t have to overhaul the game to create balance, just tweak the army list document.
Sounds good to me.
Also, i would prefer a unit to be designed to do what it is meant to do, both in game terms and fictional (fluff) terms, and for that unit’s effectiveness and use to stay the same than for that to change in order to keep the unit’s points value the same.
In order to address the issue of not having enough miniatures to make up the points some other in game bonus can be created, such as when and where some of an army’s units set up, or how pieces of terrain a player gets to place.
Ice Dungeon – the first thing that came to mind was one of the 1980s Superman movies… can’t remember which one but it has a big ice cave thing!
Also, if you want to up the budget, explain to the wife how the terrain can double as Christmas decorations, and how you plan on playing a game on Christmas Eve were the kids have to save Santa and his elves, and hence Christmas.
You are an evil genius @robert – a beautiful man, but an evil genius…
I’m blushing, not often I get called evil!
I never noticed in the paintings I’ve seen that stable in Bethlehem had an eye of the beholder hiding in the corner
It was just about all of them @robert, along with recent movies and TV shows. it’s called “The Fortress of Solitude” and is Superman’s secret base in the Artic Circle.
I think I will steal that name and call my hobby shed “The Fortress of Solitude” cause in winter it is bloody freezing!
And a couple of weeks later you can save the wisemen as they finish their quest.
This was far less visceral than the Pointless Views segment. Maybe the Fez’s blocked out the gamma rays. Tieing in the Pointless Views episode as well I would like to pose a couple of questions some of which you covered. The questions would be:- 1. If a core rule is broken how long is acceptable for them to fix it? 2. If a faction element (unit/spell/skill etc) is broken how long is acceptable for them to fix it? 3. Should broken components or core rules be fixed outside of large rules updates and rebalances regardless of the severity? 4. At… Read more »
Actually my 10 year old phone broke this year and i was forced (partly due to ethical considerations, but mostly because of what’s available) to go for a pad phone. I’d have much preferred a phone like the one you describe. I simply don’t find the additional functions worth having.
Surprised you couldn’t find anything the same as your old one to buy online. I get older style ones for my mum off of Amazon.
I did look, but it turns out that when looking a little closer most of it is trash in a game of pass the parcel. I did find a brand new phone that was exactly the same make as the phone i’d had, and i did gamble and i bought it, only to find that it was blocked. Blocked, i learnt after some digging, is not the same as locked and means that the phone has been stolen in some way. A blocked phone is effectively locked but the only way to get it unblocked is to find the original… Read more »
That’s a shame buddy. We have been quite lucky but I have only replaced hers twice.
Well i suppose i could have settled for something battered, but i do like to keep things in good condition and for them to start that way, and the options just weren’t there in the time i had.
I’d pretty sure you can buy new Nokia 3310s – they were marketing them at professionals who want to get away from their phones at weekends and on holidays.
I looked into getting one of those but it turns out they’re a bit of a gimmick and i decided against it after the blocked phone fiasco and because i had bought a pad phone with the idea of returning it for a refund if i found something else and i’d run out of time to do so and decided to stick with. It’s not bad it’s just not necessary for me.
Does anybody else think Gerry’s head works surprisingly well when photo-shopped onto other people? I have to disagree with Gerry on GW – his information is a few years out of date. For both 40k and Age of Sigmar they release a yearly Chapter Approved or General’s Handbook which rebalances points and changes/adds core rules and scenarios to rebalance the game. These processes both involve internal and external play testing. Keeping a units points the same seems good at first glance, but ultimately I think it has just the same amount of flaws. Imagine fielding your army and finding out… Read more »
@danlee @avernos totally agree that Gerry just has one of those faces. In fact, it has just the right amount of hair to be nice to press your face against but always seems to smell of whiskey in the wee hours of a Boot Camp morning or so I am told… @(^_^)@
Except that for KoW the stat adjustments are defined based on CoK and only apply to people running tournament packs. If you’re not playing a tournament it won’t effect you and if you are it is one book printed once a year that amends them. Equipment never changes as it has minimal impact so only the stat line changes or additional rules. I am aware that GW release the generals handbooks but the last time I looked at one it didn’t rebalance every required unit of every faction so either the games are more balanced than they have been in… Read more »
I’m not aware of the specifics of the KoW adjustments to stats rather than points – I was just playing devil’s advocate that changing rules could be as disruptive as changing the points. I’m mostly familiar with Age Of Sigmar, but if I recall 2nd edition in 2018 introduced points and the 2019 General’s handbook reviewed them all. However the point changes were published in a separate booklet that came with the book and so could be missed if the book is borrowed or similar. GW have stated in recent White Dwarf articles dedicated to the topics that they are… Read more »
I’ve been thinking about alternative revenue streams or funding models for organisations that produce the products we game with… Part of that stream is the new shinny models of course, which helps keep the punters interested… But would you pay a subscription fee for a game that has a single ruleset edition, that could be kept in print, but no earth shattering new edition every X number of years? Rules/points could be kept up to date via a List Builder, app and website, which could allow a printout with the relevant rules on it. Or does a new edition re-ignite… Read more »
You know its a good one when Gerry brings up Charlie the Unicorn
Happy Sunday to one and all.In my perfect hobby world,rules are updated annually in the spring as @warzan was talking about.
Happy Sunday all! I agree with @lloyd – I hate it when I think “I’ve got 20mins spare, lets whack on the XBox”, only to find it spends the next 10mins downloading updates! In terms of rebalancing exercises you have to rebalance the ecosystem rather than a particular faction otherwise it becomes a perpetual battle between faction balance, so @dignity idea doesn’t work. For example: Month 1 – You balance Dwarfs to v2 against v1 Orcs and Elves Month 2 – You now have to balance v1 Orcs against v2 Dwarfs and v1 Elves, which means you have to find… Read more »
I disagree with Justin on app cards. I don’t want app on phone, I want use cards. and I was told my stats are incorrect and not use them I am tired of that as I have no time build new army every week because they keep changing it. hence I cant be bothered to play game, I have old phone I lie but I have no space for new apps on it. period.
I personally hate apps during games. With the Warmahordes app I do screen captures and print those off at a5 size because my 50 year old eyes can’t cope with tiny text. I could easily fall prey to missing unit changes because of this.
@warzan Your point about memorizing your army is really important in certain games. For example Malifaux and Warmahordes are really combo driven games. Possessing multiple units with crossover abilities is often intrinsic to how a list works. King’s of War has a different feel where keywords and abilities aren’t necessarily intrinsic to how an army works on the table. Manufacturers have to take this into account in terms of the ecosystem of their game.
I would argue that rebalancing the rules and rebalancing the stat profiles are two separate things and their frequency should be assessed separatley. Outside of emergency fixes when huge problems are revealed, core rules should largely be left alone, with a rules errata only coming out once or twice a year. This way everyone can happily play within the same environment. Statline, however can be looked at more often. If you know a large part of your catalogue is not seeing table time then I think it is in a companies best interests to always be looking towards making them… Read more »