Weekender XLBS: The Rise Of Skirmish Games
September 8, 2019 by crew
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Morning all, Happy Sunday, stayed up for my Korea ticket!!!
Happy Sunday Brothers and Sisters of CoG!
It’s the XLBS Show.
As to the question of the day, “What do you think about the divide between skirmish and mass battle games in contemporary wargaming?”
I think it comes down to the fact that a lot of folks just don’t think that they have time for a full sized battle any more.
Happy Sunday!!
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday!
I would argue that it is competition that is driving the proliferation of smaller model count games and the bigger players in the industry are using them as a way to bring people into their mass battle games as that is where the big juicy profits are.
Content suggestion – Ryan and Gerry sitting in front of a roaring fire, clad in a smoking jacket and fez, pipes in one hand, expensive alcohol in the other philosophising over games and their meaning. Something a little high brow for the discerning cultist.
I would watch that…….religiously! 🙂
Ohhhhhh don’t tempt us!!
When time and resources are limited small scale skirmish is the way to go. Assembling and painting a dozen figures is something that looks manageable to those new to the hobby. Even the inexperienced can assemble a dozen figures in a few hobby weekends and have something that can be played. Systems like Guild ball with pre-assembled teams are even faster to get started. Mass battle systems with 50+ figures per army are a mountain of plastic/metal/resin. You need to plan and break it down in byte sized bits or else you’ll feel overwhelmed. I think things like the ‘slow… Read more »
When Ryan mentioned the colour game the first thing I thought of was the Simon game.
My question would be exactly what is a skirmish game? Is it the number of figures on the table and speed of play or is it that each figure in the case of games Bolt Action and 40k has an individual profile or is there any real difference between between so called mass battle and skirmish as each base is still just a footprint on the table and you can have that represent anything you want
Can we blame marketing departments of GW and other companies for muddling that concept ?
Part of the problem is that there is no real word to describe the format between ‘small team skirmish’ (about a dozen models, which could have names) and mass combat (waterloo style formations with hundreds of figures and a ratio of 1 model = x units).
These days the only difference between ‘mass battle’ and ‘skirmish’ is that the former has formations and the latter does not.
Happy Sunday “Skirmish, why so many?” You’re probably all right really. Time, money and effort poor. That usually sways me towards the lower model count of skirmish games. One thing to consider. I wonder what impact Warhammer: End Times had on the mass battle scene, outside the historical gaming player base. Speaking for myself, I haven’t jumped into a mass battle game since the old world blew up. I enjoyed them game, yeah I can still play it but I’m not likely to start a new one. There’s a little trepidation in the back of my mind thinking “If this… Read more »
Happy Sunday!! Took a look at the FoW D-Day Germans release page yesterday… Let’s just say it isn’t a light read and not the product focussed launch I’d expected. For club evenings and organised play, the snappy set-up, deployment and gameplay from a skirmish system means more rounds. With most, once you’re up to speed you can easily get a game done in 2-3 hours (and watch the 40k boards struggle to get to mid-turn 3 so have to call a result from an unfinished game) I also think the low model count helps 2 ways. 1) you aren’t confronted… Read more »
I never considered the idea that scale plays a part in massed combat appeal but I think you may be right.
When I saw Gerrt’s 15mm Saga Warband/Army I instantly wanted to do one. I like Bolt Action, but love the look of FoW. It broke my heart to find out Konflict ’47 was originally done in 15mm.
I tend to agree. The first time I went to Adepticon and walked the through the 40k hall, I noted that every table was jammed full of flyers and heavy armor. I was very much turned off by this as having 3-4 heavy tanks on each side 3 feet apart made no sense to me. At here was no room for them to maneuver and I could not imagine how that would ever get that close to each other. I think for me at least for 28mm, skirmish makes more sense.
Consumerism in so many different areas of our lives is increasingly based upon convenience. Let’s consider an analog. My mother prepared many family meals in her life. Each meal required a recipe (either written or learnt and adapted) and a number of ingredients and equipment (utensils, pans and cooker). At no point in her early life did she have the convenience of being able to buy a ‘ready meal’. Nowadays convenience foods (ready meals or even take-aways) are almost the norm. The ‘traditional’ historic gamer will accumulate dice, terrain, mats/boards (equipment), buy or develop their own ruleset (recipe) and individually… Read more »
I really enjoyed the D-Day Launch, glad to see it wasn’t just “here’s the 7 new German boxes, thank you and goodnight” lot of great content on it as well as the product showcase.
Yup, I am going back to read more this morning and my morning coffee was accompanied by reading about the Puma in Normandy!
I’m sure I’ll get to enjoy it more when I get the time ;-}
Loved it guys. Regards skirmish games I often hear the time poor argument. I do wonder about the validity of that argument only because 30 years ago I was spending hours planning, painting and playing wargames. I met my wife, had a family, blah, blah and became time poor. Surely there was a generation of single men after me that took my place? What are they doing with their spare time? I’d hate to think all wargamers are 35+ years old and we were the last generation. Another point that gets brought up is that they are ‘Gateway games’. The… Read more »
I’d say 20 years ago I was doing the same as you: thinking/planning playing etc. Back then though we didn’t have: a real internet (BBS’s though), Social Media out the wazoo, Netflix and all the other streaming services. I’d say there’s more competition now for our attention than ever before.
Skirmishers are easier and faster to set up, I’m working fulltime, usually 50-80 hours. I stick mainly with the GW games because that is available everywhere. I do have several other Game systems, which I actually like more, but 3/4 are out of print or so obscure that maybe 2-3 people besides me in Ireland play them. I’ve been playing for 25+ Years Miniature games, and nowadays I’m if I get to play at all, it as to be due to time a skirmisher and due to player availability it is GW Games. Also, no kids involved here, just growing… Read more »
Happy Sunday my fellow CoG´s
Warren: STL File please, these Tokenholder is totaly handy, i need them.
In case of Skirmish games: My hobby background began with RPGs, so I like the experience of narrativ character driven storytelling. So for me I love all the Skirmish games revolving around that topic.
Another option for home made tokens are ‘acrylic coin holders’ of various sizes together with a suitable size round card punch. Some interesting options on Amazon including presentation/storage cases.
Yes… but I have some 3D printers here ^^
One for Ryan regards Entropy – could the reason it’s not currently in print be that another game has come out in the last few years with the same name? One that’s on it’s second edition since the first Kickstarter in 2015?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/chaoticpattern/entropy-thematic-fast-paced-game-of-risk-and-decep/description
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/chaoticpattern/entropy-worlds-collide/description
Lack of space, expense of miniatures, increase in the level of quality of miniature that consumers expect, less leisure time or more competition for leisure time, less patience and ability to concentrate until you’ve painted 100 redcoats or pikemen, war films taking a more personal viewpoint, of the squad not the generals, kickstarter and CAD and Chinese manufacturing making it more accessible to create a whole game with minis not just a two colour leaflet of rules. All reasons for rise of skirmish games. At some point the pendulum will shift back as people will value having painted 200 orcs… Read more »
I think you have to few the rise of skirmish games from two points that go hand in hand. The consumers and the companies. I will start with the consumers as I think that will be easier and will lead to the companies. The biggest thing that I notice today is that people always have a lack of time. So if they play games they will rather choose one that will go faster and that they don’t have to put a lot of time in. Which lead to skirmish games as these don’t take that much time (playing, painting,…) compared… Read more »
Thanks @avernos!! I always wondered why Obelix had his belt around his chest with his big blue and white striped pants… now I understand!
Hang on… @Warzan wanted a cosplay inspiration…
Jamestown VA is a fairly small town; you may want to expand your call to neighbouring areas like Williamsburg VA or even Richmond VA.
you know it had never even occurred to me, but that’s probably why they did it. As silly and funny as they were there was a definite basis in reality to the Asterix comics. Clearly the writer was a fan of the period
This XLBS left me with more questions than answers really and was a real hodgepodge of information. You guys seemed to go at this piecemeal. I agree with what @torros mentioned in his post about airing what you deem to be a skirmish game. Gerry stating that the Rorkes Drift game was a skirmish game was surprising to me because of my concept of what that game type is which would be a mass battle game of a historical skirmish. I think the keyword or subject matter needs to be kicked around in conversation more prior to the question posed… Read more »
that’s probably my fault, I still use the historical version of skirmish, anything that isn’t a formed unit based system is skirmish regardless of number of elements.
Yup I was going by if it’s not rank and file it’s skirmish.
I’d love some tighter definitions though as a discussion like this really would benefit from them 🙂
I propose FLP for big games – Fuck Loads to Paint. WCM for small games – Wife Controls my Money. Easy!
I think it’s more about the style of the rules rather than the number of figures on a base or how there based. Gerry mentioned Blucher so if you have 9 60×60mm bases (I maybe confusing the base sizes with Grande Armee) you are playing a Napoleonics game with 3 divisions under your command
Agreed it’s a tough one buddy, I think part of it may be how they move and see. Skirmish in my mind tends to mean minis who have a 360 LoS and have a loose formation. It’s really tough to set parameters to allow us to specify a skirmish game due to their diversity of rules and options in their game systems.
Agreed maybe we could poll the community on some of these subjects. Discuss them in the Weekender or Points of View then select from the discussion and comments a number of responses for a poll.
A lot of people will likely have an opinion but not comment. Maybe they would share their opinion if all they had to do was select an option from a poll.
So essentially are we saying it’s based on how the units are deployed i.e. as a unit on a single base/footprint.
I think we do imagine skirmishers to be single minis as part of a unit in a loose formation.
Makes the Apocalypse movement trays a chuckle factor though 😀
I base it on how they were used, skirmishers were the light troops that scouted or protected the flanks of formed units and remained so up to the 19th Century. I’ve never really gotten out of the habit of referring to them as such.
But people who don’t pay attention to that style of warfare have come to think of a skirmish game as a very small group of miniatures.
Both terms are correct, I suppose it comes down to the definition that people first attribute to the word as to how they think of it
Yeah, that’s where my mind goes most of the time when people say the term. Problems start when times changed and most or all infantry became lightly armoured and tactics changed to none formed rank formations.
Maye it would be better to define the criteria of a mass battle game and let everything else be a skirmish or we may need to just not try and fit games into such stereotypes of games.
I would define a skirmish game as one that doesn’t have a unit cohesion mechanic – i.e. every model moves around independently. e.g. Mordheim, Necormunda.
Games where units of multiple models move around together are “mass battle”. e.g. Age of Sigmar, Saga
If those models are touching and ranked up it becomes a “rank and flank” game. e.g. Warhammer Fantasy Battles
@danlee I like that approach buddy, be interesting to see if anyone responds with a reason not to do it that way.
Yeah I think the problem is we say ‘Skirmish’ but what we mean is ‘Warband’, Even in ‘Skirmish’ games like SPQR we have phalanxes and infantry forming up into ranks.
Well I’d go with Skirmish is where 1 model represents 1 man. Most historical mass battle systems use a figure ratio to represent soldiers on the field (so 1 model represents 20 men is common or 50 men if it’s a “grand scale” battle). The number of models doesn’t determine if it’s skirmish (hence Gerry’s Rouke’s Drift can have hundreds of figures and still be skirmish as it’s 1 figure represents 1 man).
Another good discussion today. I think the discussion around what is a game was interesting. I agree with Gerry on this, a rule set is still a game the difference is wether or not that rule set has its own ecosystem. For instance a GW game does, there are the rules, miniatures, paint and terrain for that game and generally,especially in the case of 40k you can’t get alternative miniatures from elsewhere for many of the factions. Other examples will include Warmachine, The Walking Dead and Infinity though not to extent that a GW game is. The reasons why I… Read more »
Gerry is the Johnathon Pie of OTT, always spot on with comments like ‘PEOPLE ARE FICKLE’ LOL
I also rant angrily between the takes 😉
Yet again, another great show. In the main topic, I am a huge fan of mass-battle games. The look of all the minis ranked up in formations. Depending on the period, dozens of huge flags and banners, the uniform colours etc etc. However, for easy of model storage, I am a fan of skirmish games as well. For me, skirmish is a case of necessity and ease, however, money and space being no object, I would be playing mass-battle games as the majority. I think I am going to have to wade in with the conversation as well, and agree… Read more »
For many years I play rank and file games and no other type. I had amassed 7000pts Dark Angels, 4000 pts Blood Angels, 2500 pts Empire, a large Napoleonis British Army then I played Mordhiem. After one game I was convinced skirmish was the way to go. I got rid of my armies to fund a plethora of skirmishes games. I have no intention of playing large scale again, I was tempted to build and play Ancient Greeks mass battle as I had a itch to play a Greek States campaign. Then Mortal Gods and SPQR came along and I… Read more »
HI Warren have you thought of selling your token rings would work for several game systems
Dane
Happy Sunday, personally for me i love the site of massed minis on the table but i also enjoy skirmish but being a predominate solo player of games due to no choice a skirmish game can be easier to play , set up and put away at the end of the day.
For the first 10 minutes I really thought this conversation was completely going to miss the point as there are so many rulesets being produced for mass battle games both historical and fantasy/sci-fi. Luckily Gerry brings a much wider perspective to the discussion. Ryans input was very insightful as well.