Weekender XLBS: Industry Growth Report & How To Avoid Campaign Fatigue?
July 30, 2017 by dignity
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Happy SUNDAY!
So just wanted to give a bit of feedback, and sorry for being a little late on it I was doing videos for WAYPN 😐 First off thanks to @diginity @warzan and whoever else was responsible for giving me the button, but I noticed how you muted it properly because of the sound of defeat in our voices on how long it took to get to that stage ha ha ha. I am glad you guys liked it. @warzn when it comes business side I think you nailed like a lot of the ‘common sense’ wisdom, they were so focused… Read more »
Happy off to work at five to six on a Sunday morning lol. I’ve been playing 40k on and off since 96, and I’ve yet to play a campaign, so yet to experience campaign fatigue 😛
Good show.
For Manny just replace the word. When he’s around you and your wife say something like Nack and have her act like you just swore. Manny will stop saying peeness and start saying Nack. Anything works just keep it one syllable and say it like you would a swear word.
Happy Sunday everyone
I was expecting a shorter show to day especially when Warren got the message on his watch telling him he had to go home for his tea.Or maybe he had to go clean up up some peeness
With respect to GW’s growth & its competitive position vs other mini companies — their distribution quality has to factor into it. It may not be obvious from the UK or US, but here in Australia (and I assume many other relatively small markets) GW is basically the only manufacturer with reliable availability. Pretty much every other game is hard to commit to because they go randomly in and out of stock and can have reduced ranges. I am sure it is not the main reason, but it has to be an influence. Its certainly a reason I’ve spent an… Read more »
Has their distribution in Australia gotten better over the last year or has it always been like this?
Distribution for GW is fine one could even say they are the top of the market. @jamesedwards isn’t wrong in say they are almost the only people down here.
Price is their problem…
GW has proper stores in a number of cities that are always fully stocked. My opinion is that the Sydney CBD (so presumably the main one) is running very well now after they switched back to two-man stores.
GW store availability is 100% and has been for years. More & more online & FLGS retailers are not stocking them however, apparently because they don’t fulfill their orders very well (and the margin is low of course).
It’s got better. A lot better. Since we have to import almost everything from overseas out of stock is much more of a pain. GW are very good at getting enough stock in country even if it’s not at your local store. Sometimes independent stockists can’t get certain companies products back in stock for months. Also we lack a lot of specialist direct order stuff from other companies whereas with GW we can pick up that one mini and get it sent to a store near us for free instead of having to wait a month. People, especially here in… Read more »
I don’t think it’s just Australia .Even in Northern Ireland a local shop game/model has to order £x ( in the hundred of pounds) of stock before the distributor will send it as it to go by specialist courier due to it including aerosols etc so we stuff it if stick while the owner has to let several lines run down before it’s worth him doing a reorder
The last bit didnt make sense sorry. It should say do we have to wait as the owner…..
I continue for campaigns you need to make them short end sweet Run them them over a couple of days. Not sure if running them as series of scenarios necessarily works either. From experience get everyone in the room for 1 or 2 days with a map on the wall and let them at it.
*I think for campaigns…..
That’s my preference also. The last longer form campaign I did was for WFB and it just turned into a grind. By the end it felt like an obligation and a chore rather than something I was doing for enjoyment.
For these global campaigns I do wonder how many games are actually being played or if people are just making up results when sitting in front of the computer on a wet Wednesday night and bored with nothing else to do..
Keep drinking from your new mug Warren, it’ll proxy for having to take iron tablets! ; )
Happy Sunday!
Definitely need some hobby time myself today and the rest of this week!
During physical tournaments I have no issues with side-show competitions about painting, modelling, epic cinematic game moments and so forth, but position in the tournament itself needs to be about pure gameplay and objectives.
So in an online campaign, sure, give people recognition and badges etc to encourage the hobby side – but don’t let that influence the main outcomes. People will just game this unverifiable source of reward.
Heck, lets be honest, how verifiable are some of the results people are feeding in anyway?
I guess you mean Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective, Warren? As for Exit, if you did an actual escape room how much would you pay? Probably a fair bit more than the cost of the game. We’ve inbuilt expectations of what games should be, but when considering them as entertainment, and comparing them to other forms of entertainment, you can see why once most people try a good ‘play once’ game, they have no issue with it.
Absolutely, provided it’s ‘simple’ enough that you play it correctly (mechanics wise)
I’d have to have that moment where I realise “ahh crap I’ve been playing this sequence wrong and even torn the wrong cards etc” 🙂
I guess the perceived problem is that you can’t be sure how much game play your going to get. If you have to spend 40 odd hours at it then it’s probably worth it . If you manage to complete it in a couple of hours then maybe not
A T.I.M.E. Stories scenario takes us about three hours and costs £20. We buy every one as soon as it comes out.
To expand a little, £20 for what we consider an evening of quality entertainment for four people is something we find to be well worth it. Sure, we could spend that on a game we could play every evening, but ‘play once’ games can do things that other games can’t, and we’re very happy to pay for that experience.
It is fascinating how irrationally people peg the prices they will pay (including me).
I’ll think nothing of paying $100+ for a dinner for 2 that lasts 90 minutes, but balk at paying the same for a game if I worry I will only get a couple of plays out of it.
I’m consciously trying to change that attitude but it persists & I hear it implicitly from others.
A dinner is obviously by its nature consumable. No matter how much you pay for it, you’re only going to eat it once (hopefully lol). A game doesn’t have to be. You can play lots of games over and over again for a one-off cost. That said, you don’t have to pay anything like $100+ to eat a meal. At that point you’re paying for the experience (superior food, setting, company, etc.). Once you get over that initial hump and realise with a once-only game you’re paying for an experience, is when you start seeing it in the same way… Read more »
There are times when part of the role of the game is to help engage a broader social get together over one or many sessions. Probably co-op or team based, with the facility for people to drop in an out as needs be.
“Whose turn to cook?” ” I’d better deal with the crying baby!” or even “sorry guys, we can’t make this session but we’ll pick up wherever you get to the following week” are all scenarios a good game will accommodate – even legacy.
You have to think that the best of both worlds can be achieved with legacy style games using interactive tech if there is the opportunity for replayability.
Certain game mechanics effected by earlier decisions can be kept ‘black box’ from the participants which – unless you follow the exact same path the next ti e means you get surprising changes.
Not that I don’t see a place for a single use legacy game @£15-£20 for a group of 4-6 wanting an evening’s entertainment. Providing no one’s eliminated too early.
On the GW campaign topics and the ‘pay to win’ description.
I don’t think that title really fits.It feels more like an wider range of options to participate.
This is so that campaigns appeal to more than only gamers. Loads of people are involved in the hobby for different areas, most notably collecting, painting and gaming. This means everyone has an option.
There’s only a limited number of ‘boxes to tick’ for purchases (6) too, so you can’t just buy your faction to victory. As you said, that one player’s contribution in on a faction wide scale Just my perspective
🙂
If you do get points for your faction for buying product, even if it’s not many, then it is undoubtedly to encourage purchases. It’d be naive to think otherwise. GW didn’t get to be as successful as they are without being a ruthless sales machine (no criticism is implied there). Most games which are expensive to play have an implicit pay to win element anyway. It’s hard to be successful at Magic if you can’t afford to get the best cards. Likewise, building a competitive army for a GW game can be very expensive. I recall running a Warriors of… Read more »
About the retailers: There was a little hobby store here and it was mostly Games Workshop and FFG products. Then Warlord games and flames of war started up and they started selling that. But there were a lot of other games that he wanted to sell be he was not able to because of bringing it in plus stocking and displaying the product. He sold a bit of Rackham and later a bit of Warmachine but that didn’t seem to sell much but that could have been because he didn’t have much anyway. Those VTOL’s do look a lot like… Read more »
The churn of games makes it difficult for a FLGS to pick what to put on their shelves. Most of them are also subject to the vaguaries of multiple suppliers/distributors with often limited stocks when games peak. I guess each store hopes to have some stable ranges – GW, MtG now SW:Destiny and X:Wing are usually safe. But that means the smaller companies struggle for a look in. The industry has quickly grown a ‘Long Tail’ of ranges and products which the internet can always support, but the FLGS still has a critical part to play. I’d like to see… Read more »
We didn’t have time to get into this aspect of it, though I did discuss in the article I wrote on the ICv2 survey. Whilst the market is growing rapidly, new releases are outpacing even this. It’s leading to short shelf lives for games and makes it hard for stores to know what to order in. Even evergreen titles are starting to decline, albeit ICv2 speculate that mass channel stores are likely compensating there. It means that if I were looking launch titles into the current market, I’d want them to be games that could thrive off a short shelf… Read more »
Happy sunday everyone,
I would buy at least two of those mugs.
Just had that moment where you write a long comment and then it doesn’t send due to no real reason :'(
To summarize, Good to see you Gerry and a new type of model project we don’t often see. For those who don’t know him have a read about Charles Upham who won 2 VC and didn’t die. Love the bit with the Italians when he got stuck in the mud in a Jeep while going through enemy lines with urgent intel. @warzan did GW use the in store campaign to make sure the numbers were right and there was no cheating in the campaign and maybe to see what armies and unit choices were most popular. Campaigns at club level… Read more »
Happy sunday folks I’ve played in multiple campaigns over the past few years and found that fatigue does indeed kick in. Club 40k campaign last year, people dropped out because they missed a week or 2 and didn’t want to rejoin which then snowballed very quickly for their team and others gave up as they felt at a disadvantage before we could re-adjust the teams so it died on it’s ass mid-way through. I’ve seen others drop out because something new and shiner has come out midway through and their interest is immediately diverted elsewhere – Other club joined Warlord’s… Read more »
Happy sunday everyone! And thank you so so much! Best birthday present! I’m so honored to be in the community spotlight with @caladors and @gorillawithabrush Absolutely stunning work they’ve done *beams* As for campaigns…I’d love to see the possibility to contribute through painting. I’m often short for time or people to play with. Causing me to have loads of games I never play, simply for the minies. Like Gates of Antares. Or Hordes. I’d jump at the chance to help through oainting if I could 🙂 Oh, btw..@warzan I’d definitely be buying that mug too (and my boyfriend would shake… Read more »
Ha ha 😀 I glad you think that you’re sharing good company because so do I but I am like ohhh how did I get here ha ha ha
I am a bit that way with the idea of what to do on hobby night but I am a little worried about it :/
That thing is I am worried I won’t get it all done I am pretty slow at painting this up at the best of time :/
HNL is not about finishing mate, it’s about having fun starting 🙂 @caladors
You obviously didn’t hear the audio we weren’t having fun getting it moving ha ha.
BUT! It is great actually having it together and it is almost finished now 😀
I think for campaigns you need to think carefully about the rules you use. Now for 40k I guess that’s not really an option but when we did our ancients campaign we decided on DBA. Not that they are the best rules but because you can get games done in 40 minutes to and hour
LMAO at the thumbnail picture! 😀 I could see that Justin’s famous high metabolism has been fading, what with his double chin growing (sorry Justin, the camera never lies) but this thumbnail is such a perfect prediction of future Justin. Except for the fact there is too much hair. 😀
And then I saw the show and the pee-ness, lol!!! 😀
GW is going to be doing something along the lines of CCG’s with their Shadespire warband card based game, so perhaps that will be an attempt to get into that market.
I’m glad GW is doing well, I think it would be rather sad and a huge shame if they were to go under.
I don’t see myself entering a campaign unless I completely free from the outside world; I would have to take a holiday just to be free enough to regularly take part in one.
Shame about the skull mug!
Good show guys! Re: campaigns, I think as others have said that the key is to make them as short as possible. Preferably run over a single weekend, or perhaps over the course of a few weekends, and building up to a grand finale that everone wants to take part in. In that case it’s probably best to view that final game as _the_ campaign, which people can commit to in adance, and then see everything else leading up to it as an optional extra to help set up the climax. An alternative would be a campaign which rewards failure.… Read more »
Really enjoyed both of this weekends shows
Great weekender XLBS this week. Lots of passionate and insightful exposition.
I like when Gerry is on. Give that man a job. Lol.
I like you, where should I send the money?
Great show guys, really enjoyed the industry news talk and to finally see @redben 🙂
As far as the issue with Conan at retail, I think it might also be down to the fact that the first print of the rules is so poor it made the game also impossible to play!
I’m taking it as a win if my pugly mug means lost backstagers is just in double figures lol
I corresponded with Z-man Games in 2015 about the issue of not being able to play through the Legacy edition(s) of Pandemic more than once ( without buying a second copy ), and also the issue of the lowering of the quality of components since the first edition of Pandemic. They wrote that “when a game reaches such a large market, any editor need to adjust its producing cost to maintain an advantageous margin”. I suspect it has more to do with Z-man Games being bought in 2011 and then perhaps any anticipation there was of being bought by Asmodee,… Read more »
Regarding the zombie threat in a Walking Dead campaign: You could track how many characters were killed by zombies, the threat level when each game ended, or how many zombies overall wound up being on the board. Then use that to abstract a global ‘zombie threat’.