Weekender XLBS: Armistice Centennial – Remembering World War I
November 11, 2018 by dignity
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Happy Sunday
Happy Sunday!!
Happy Sunday !
Happy sunday folks
Happy Sunday to you, @avernos . Thanks for helping out with another great interview, and for being so patient while John and I rambled for so long. 😀
At the time of this post, we are about 1 hour, 12 minutes short of the Armistice.
11:00 11.11.18
There it is. 😐
Commemorative Sunday to ALL
Wow! 100 Years ago this morning, the war to end all wars, ended. Neat weekender guys, a bit more of a serious tone at times, but fitting.
@avernos great looking diorama! Something so simple, but so moving.
Indeed that is an awesome little piece. I wish I could have spoken to it during the interview, but please remember I can’t see it during the recording. Watching this morning was the first time I could actually see it.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1300056/
thanks guys, I know you can’t see it @oriskany but I didn’t have any photos taken to send to you at the time, that gives a slightly better idea of how it looks currently than the camera did.
Definitely epic work, @avernos – and great call on putting that angle in the wall. 😀
thanks @oriskany
Mixed feelings Sunday!! Hurrah, the ‘ Great War to end all wars’ is over and the boys can come home… but.at what cost? So while we’re at it, best not forget those lost in conflicts in these intervening 100 years. How can we possibly game in this genre? At one level we can game in the very abstract, zooming out completely to markers on a map of Europe; but isn’t there something obscene about rolling dice where every dot on a dice represents the loss of thousands of men. A bit too Haig/Kitchener for me. Perhaps we should zoom in… Read more »
I respect your opinion, if even I couldn’t possibly disagree more strongly with your characterization of historical wargaming.
Thanks for your thoughts Jim. This is my opinion this morning and it’s quite a personal, emotionally based one around today’s events.
Ask me next week and our thoughts will probably be more aligned. I don’t have a thing normally about historical, there’s just something about today that makes those abstractions a bit clearer and more poignant.
No worries at all, sir, you are certainly entitled to feelings and opinions no matter what day it happens to be 😀 and certainly to change them from day to day as well.
*my girlfriend does it all the time.* 🙁
I do agree on one point – this will not be a day for “beer and pretzel” historical gaming.
Horrifying thought – how long before it does become a ‘beer and pretzel’ day? Come the bicentennial will gamers still have the respect and solemnity we have, or will that extra degree of separation be enough of an abstraction to make them comfortable with it? 🙁
Hopefully never, @lordofuzkulak – I mean… I’ve played at tables with Romans vs. Carthaginians … and while there admittedly wasn’t any kind of personal connection or solemn mood for the “anniversary” of the Battle of Zama, it wasn’t anything like “beer and pretzels” either.
Happy Sunday.
We don´t have to forget also that for some soldiers the Great war didn´t end in 1918, for example Czechoslovak legion was caught in civil war in Russia and they have to fought through whole Trans-Siberian railway. And the last legionaries left the Vladivostok port in September 1920.
Very True. Australian, British and even Canadians were fighting the Reds in Russia for a while after-woods. The Russian Civil War itself would rage for a few more years. The USSR invaded Eastern Europe getting to Warsaw itself before being defeated. The Middle East turned into a total mess and descended into tribal warfare only now with Machine Guns. The British had a revolution brewing in Egypt that threatened the Suez, India was a Powder Keg, Ireland was in a rebellion/Civil War and Germany was basically no longer a country at this point. Communist “Soviets” are springing up all over… Read more »
I certainly take your point, @alin I would only add a gentle caution against bleeding World War I into succeeding wars. Historically the Russian Civil War isn’t really considered part of World War I, even if there is (depending on your definition of the RCW) some overlap in the dates. It just leads to a slippery slope where wars all across Russia, the Middle East, Poland, and Africa drag on well into the 1920s. I don’t think most historians consider them part of World War I. Then this leads to “pre-dating” wars as well, where people like to argue sometimes… Read more »
Absolutely, @elessar2590 . We touch on this very briefly in this interview and try to tackle it in a little more detail in Part Three … where the legacy of the the Paris Peace Conference (not just the Treaty of Versailles) led directly to problems not only building into the European theaters of World War II, but helped start the war in the Pacific – and also conflicts that “skipped” World War II entirely and smoldered through the Cold War into beyond – right up to today and well into the foreseeable future.
Indeed, the War didn’t end 1100hrs 11/11; the Armistice was just the cease fire between Germany, France and the British; with Marshall Foch representing various Allies including the US and Commonwealth forces. This West Europe part of the war ended officially with the Treaty of Versailles signed 6 months later… but it wasn’t called a World War for nothing!
Agree on two points. 😀 11/11/11 was only a *cease-fire*, not the actual end of the war. The British naval blockade against German civilians and occupation of the Saar / Rhineland continued long afterwards. And Versailles was only one treaty of the Paris Peace Conference, other treaties had to be drawn up and ratified to end other parts of the war – in Eastern Europe, Southern Europe, Africa, MidEast, and even the Pacific (disassembling the German Empire out there and handing possessions predominantly to the Americans or Japanese).
Happy reflective Sunday
Going off to Belfast for Remembrance Day so will watch later
We will remember them. (British Legion Bergen)
happy sunday, will watch some of this before heading off to the local remembrance service. bit of a loose connection, my unit 12 Med SQN sent guys out with Black Watch to support the Marines in Falluja. I was one day out from being sent with my mate when the unit realised they had basically gutted the Armoured section and made the Sqn under manned so only half of the unit were sent with guys robbed from other units.
Indeed, @armholeeio – we were talking about the Black Watch at Fallujah just recently on the next episode of the “Situation Report” podcast. November 8 was the anniversary of the start of that battle in 2004.
I feel the idea of the working class being slaughted while the toffs sit back is a bit of a myth.Officers in the trenches still had to go over the top. The casualty rate for lads who went to Eaton is very high. I’m sure I read some where that 4 British generals died but I might be wrong about that. My favourite British officer is Smith Dorrien who saved the British army from destruction at Mons at the start of the war. He started out surviving Isandlwana in the Zulu war 1879 and went on to fight every colonial… Read more »
It is a myth, you’re really right. This is the point I was hoping to make with the discussion of the staff officers. It’s one thing to talk about what the generals and staff officers may have been doing, but that doesn’t include the company-grade officers (lieutenants, captains) with the sections, platoons, and companies in the field. Then there are field-grade officers (Majors, Lt. Colonels, Colonels) who are leading battalions or working on staffs. Again, the quality of staff work and how close they may or may not have been to the front varies widely between the armies or even… Read more »
60 British Generals died in WWI Class Warfare and the big step Left Europe took Politically directly after the Great War has a lot to do with our perception of the War. The Working Class was slaughtered while the Rich sat in a Chateau. Not Ture The Rich forced Europe into the War and the working class didn’t want it. Also not true the war was extremely popular at the onset. The man who was basically holding War back was Archduke Franz Ferdinand who fought with Conrad von Hotzendorf and stopped him from going to war at least a dozen… Read more »
Two minutes to Armistice at time of post …
I totally agree with your points, @elessar2590 – in fact at 35:10 I lead off with: “I’m going to defend the generals here …” 😀
Very Great Show @lloyns for the Civil War around Petersburg at the end of the War had some very complex and well planned trenches and defensive emplacements surrounding the city and the European advisers were terrified by it. The Europeans basically looked at the War and took back the lesson “We’re so F**ked if a big war kicks off in Europe”. The Europeans knew what would happen if the War dragged on, it would devolve into trench warfare and Machine Guns (or the things that would later become Machine Guns like Gatling and Gardner Guns) would be a huge problem.… Read more »
Great post – @elessar2590 … Indeed, we mention 1864 Petersburg, the trenches, and Longstreet, European observes (especially with AVN) – all as eerie previews of the Great War. One thing I didn’t mention was the big use of mine warfare, digging the tunnel under Confederate trenches and blowing a hole in it leading to the Battle of the Crater, which worked about as well as subsequent mining operations around Passchendaele / Messines Ridge. I agree the “Lions led by Donkeys” is a myth – I think a big part of this is (like I was saying to @denzien above) a… Read more »
Very true about the generals. A big part of WWI is the creation/destruction of the “Militia Myth” It’s a very Colonial thing. Basically a force of Militia fight alongside a much larger Regular force, have some success then everyone just assumes that “Group X” are just natural soldiers that you can just give them a gun and they’ll fight as well as any other man. America had the myth start in the French Indian War and got it shattered in The AWI. Canada had the myth start in the War of 1812 and had it shattered in WWI. Australia had… Read more »
Completely agree about the militia myth, @elessar2590 . Specially for the Americans, I would take it a step further and say it was created or at least reinforced during the Revolution, specifically at Lexington and Concorde in April 1775 and again at Bunker / Breed’s Hill in June 1775. These rag-tag unarmed militia simply jumped out of the wheat fields, picked up granddaddy’s musket, and “defeated” trained British regulars? Unfortunately for the Revolution, this is precisely how many in the Second Continental Congress saw it. So when Washington starts asking for a permanent standing army of 40,000 raised for the… Read more »
@oriskany – I’ve just caught up on the XLBS and reading through the comments and wanted to explore this militia tangent a bit. It seems that since the end of the Cold War the armies of Europe have wanted to professionalise, end conscription and have better, more committed soldiers. Military budgets are under a lot of strain, and here in the UK there’s quite a shortage of soldiers. I’m not sure how much of that is to do with short budgets. I get the impression that the US military is also facing a manpower shortage. No one (except for a… Read more »
Honestly my thoughts were pretty much in the episode, and in the comment above. And I’m trying to avoid walking into too many minefields today.
Okay, fair enough! 🙂
I hope I didn’t sound like I was “slamming a door” on that, @angelicdespot . I just seemed to get the feeling like we were already heading into an argument, apologies if I misread it.
@oriskany no worries! I don’t think I was heading in to one, but you may have had other comments / commenters in mind too.
I was genuinely interested in your thoughts but perhaps it’s one for a real life meet up if I can ever make it to a boot camp!
Sounds great! 😀
I agree with Gerry on him going back to the diorama and adding the extra colour to the figures as at the moment (from what I can see on camera), people will look at it and some will either think it looks unfinished, or if they’re thoughtless will crack jokes about the soldiers being covered in mud, which is just disrespectful (won’t be Gerry’s fault, but if adding some colour/sepia tones will help avoid eliciting that reaction, I think it’ll be worth it).
Also just thought of something that I don’t think was mentioned in the show; in addition to remembering the soldiers who fought in the War, we should also give thoughts to those conscientious objectors who drove ambulances and would run out unarmed into No-Man’s Land to recover the wounded. Regardless of whether or not you think they were right to object to the war, I’m sure we can all agree they deserve respect for still serving in a valuable capacity and that it takes immense bravery to go out into a bloodbath without weapons purely to try and save lives.
@lordofuzkulak I found something very interesting today. Three people have been awarded the VC twice and two of them were awarded in WWI and both were a “bar” or 2nd VC awarded. *EDIT* Captain Chavasse actually won both his VC’s during WWI. Both men were Medical Corps Officers Surgeon-Captain Martin-Leake and Captain Noel Godfrey Chavasse Surgeon-Captain Martin-Leake (from Wiki) During the action at Vlakfontein, on the 8th February, 1902, Surgeon-Captain Martin-Leake went up to a wounded man, and attended to him under a heavy fire from about 40 Boers at 100 yards range. He then went to the assistance of… Read more »
the nice thing is no one will crack jokes to my face because I’m just shy of 2m tall with a temper 😉
But it is unfinished, however the deadline was to get it done for Armistice Day and it was the only way I could manage it, so I’ll be revisiting it soon(ish) to do some proper painting work on it.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1300056/
Here’s where I’m currently at though since you really can’t see more than brown on brown from that distance
Great point @lordofuzkulak – conscientious objectors or not … support personnel who care for the wounded, especially those who do so at personal risk, should never be forgotten. It’s a long-standing rule in the Marine Corps that Navy Corpsmen are the one MOS in the the Navy that is not ridiculed. Well, them and the chaplains (who are officers anyway). @avernos – “Let him have it, it’s not wise to make fun of Gerry’s miniatures.” “But sir, no one worries about making fun of my miniatures.” “That because you don’t pull people’s arms out of their sockets when you’re upset.… Read more »
By my clock – it is 11:00 AM in France and Belgium.
Unless I’m off because of daylight savings time for some such nonsense …
100 years ago … this moment.
Lest We Forget…….. to servicemen and servicewomen from all nations and conflicts regardless of national politics. We serve(d) to protect our nations. Happy Sunday All, as always a good show that tries to discuss good topics that some people do wont to acknowledge. (I swear I saw Justin tear up at the end when he signed off). For me I the 11th hour sitting alone in my study with the lights off and listened to the Last Post & Reva lie. I actually didn’t want to face the crowd I knew that would be at the local war memorial, or… Read more »
Well said, @recon63 – I wanted to make this point at the end of the interview … where the UK, Australia, US, and Canada tend to “claim” much of the reverence for Veterans / Armistice / Remembrance Day, this is a big day for really twenty+ other nations as well. And yes, that includes Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, Poles, Czechs, Italians etc. I remember a few years ago we did the Kickstarter articles for “Heroes of Limanowa” – a game developed by a studio in central Europe who venerates the contributions of the Austrian-Hungarian armies early in the war. We found… Read more »
10:55
Watching the BBC coverage of the Cenotaph service and remembering my Grandad Harold Sharples, served in the BEF in France in 1940, evacuated at Dunkirk, later transferred to North Africa and fought with the Desert Rats before being wounded, returned to the UK and spent the rest of the war guarding POWs as his wounds made him unfit for the front line. He lived with the physical and mental wounds until he died in 1983.
Thank you Grandad, you gave for my tomorrow
Well said, @damon – Not sure if I have a relations in the Great War, but I do have them in World War II and Vietnam. And of course many friends I remember from the Gulf War.
Now this was a different show from other XLBS and it was very much done in the right fashion. You guys really struck the note and set the tone right for this very special day. Thank you.
Happy Sunday 🙂
Happy thoughtful Sunday everyone, thanks team for a very respectful and informative show today. I watched this with my boys and then watched the BBC coverage this morning observing the silence with my kids.
Thanks
Martin
Remember the Black Watch! 😀
You do know that technically they don’t exist any more they are part of the first Scots army ? now @oriskany
It was a reference to 2nd Bn Black Watch that @laughingboy was playing at Torbruk – November 1941 – Crusader – Bolt Action Boot Camp.
cutbacks to the military have forced ? the government to redeploy all regiment’s into one battalion @oriskany
https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/corps-regiments-and-units/infantry/royal-regiment-of-scotland/
I honestly have no idea. The original comment was about World War I and II (Tobruk, specifically) … as well as the 2018 boot camp where @laughingboy and I were at neighboring tables for a few hours. 😀
Yes I understand I’m just saying to in form you of the present army problems. they are going to close fort George down the line as well at the moment too
The Russo-Japanese war of 1904-05 gave a strong portent of WW1, especially the siege of Port Arthur; trench works separated by a no man’s land with barbed wire and mines, covered by machine guns and quick firing field guns, the battle characterised by rushes ‘over the top’ and horrendous casualty numbers for the ground gained (or not).
Many western observers disregarded the lessons as a peculiarity of the Japanese way of making war.
Also, something that’s just come up on Facebook remembering the non human casualties, a big part of WW1.
https://m.facebook.com/thepenkridgebookoflife/posts/1961409740818939
When it comes to the Russo-Japanese War, I totally defer to you, @damon – I still remember those warships you had! 😀
MASTER OF DISASTER? with that intro i thought you were gonna be wrestling.
tis a time for thoughts and remembering love the tone of the show. for all servicemen and women past amd present i salute you and raise a glass in your direction thsnk you for your service. for those that never made it home sleep well and thank you for the ultimate sacrifice.
OH, YOU DIDN’T KNOW?
YO’ ASS BETTER CAAAAAAALL SOMEBOOOOODY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi27_jKHino&start_radio=1&list=RDBi27_jKHino
It’s me, it’s me! It’s the D – O – double G!
On a more serious not, glad you liked the show. 😀
Happy Reflective Sunday
Great show moving and educational. Keep up the good work lads.
Glad you enjoyed it. 😀
‘ello people…. why are there so few beards in this episode… we need more beards!
Yes. Tarantino is massively overrated for me too.
I’m going to assume that’s another pun that I’m not getting 😛
no, just an opinion. If anyone has fun and enjoys those movies: more power to you. But for me they are just boring most of the time. But that’s something for nearly all “over the top” movies like splatter, gore and similar genres to me.
That being said: I love (and funded) Iron Sky I & II 😉
one of my friends wrote some scenes for IS 1, I’m looking forward to 2 finally
Not a big fan of Tarantino; but I’ll give him one thing – he doesn’t pretend to make high art or historically accurate films/movies. He does pulp, often in homage to the pulp that influenced him, and that certainly includes Glorious B*****s.
That may be but still that doesn’t make him a great director nor does it justify the hype around some of his works.