Weekender XLBS: What Gets You Playing New Games?
July 26, 2015 by lloyd
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Happy Sunday!
Happy sunday and Happy gaming!
I can’t play the video guys.I can play yesterday’s weekender but not todays
Same for me stopped at 1:25
Firefox started hanging for me around 1:30. Had to close it down and restart, then skip the video forward to watch the rest.
Much as with Lloyd, I find the 40K setting to be a bit cringeworthy, though I find that even within the context of the game itself. I realise lots of people love it and I’m not trying to say it’s no good, only that if you’re outside that 40K bubble it might not be as appealing as it seems to those inside it.
In terms of the quality of writing, I’ve tried to read a few Black Library books and never gotten more than 20 pages in before the bad writing meant I couldn’t go on. To be fair, this is an industry-wide issue rather than a 40K one. If I was to ever ‘gurn’ about the industry it would be the risible quality of the creative writing. It’s a particular problem for me given the current trend is to present background in rulebooks as fiction rather than exposition. When I’m buying a rulebook now it often seems like I’m dropping £30 on… Read more »
Are you saying you don’t feel extra engaged when the rules keep being broken apart by the inept adventures of Bob the manservant?
Yes, I agree 100%, and the above is why I don’t write 😉
I think the problem with the writing stems from the IP being so well-defined. Most writers (like me – ulp!) want to create as they go. But when you’re writing for a company like, say, GW, you can’t do that. You have to stick to a storyline that fits with the rather narrow concept of the game. So, it’s war, war, war. Not much nuance, apart from the odd switch between ammo types. It’s the nature of the beast.
Bad writing in your opinion 😉
Writing can be objectively bad (or ‘mediocre’ might be a better word) but subjectively enjoyable. I couldn’t mark essays on the quality of their writing if it wasn’t possible to be objective about quality. The opposite also holds true. Writing can be objectively good but subjectively unenjoyable. I can’t deny Shakespeare’s genius with words, but I don’t enjoy reading his plays.
Yes, but quality is still a matter of opinion. You don’t think its good writing, others would disagree. It’s as simple as that. I’m not saying I disagree with you mind, but id sooner read a HH novel than Shakespeare because it has spaceships.
I don’t agree that writing can’t be objectively valued because I think it can. I do agree that the quality of the writing doesn’t automatically equal the amount of enjoyment the reader experiences. There are a lot of things which factor into that. The dialogue in Star Wars is not well written, but the plot, setting, imagination, SFX, storytelling, and characters in various combinations carry it above that for many people.
I agree. I read a few GW books back in the 90s and thought they were so awful I didn’t bother with any more until the Horus Heresy ones came along, and I just wanted to know what was being done. I enjoyed Dan Abnet’s ‘Horus Rising’ which started the series and have mostly kept going with the novels as they’ve come out, but some of them are a real struggle to get through. The only reason I keep going is because I want to keep on top of the HH setting. Or rather, that’s the only reason I keep… Read more »
I agree 100%. No interest in it at all for me.
Clearly any IP is likely to be more appealing to those familiar with it as those who are not? I don’t think we all have to be experts in each respective background to be able to loosely throw the stories into a preferential order (it’s really just a conversation) IMHO as a piece of IP I think 40k has more (‘currently’ and i can’t stress that enough, because both star wars and startrek are on the cusp of some big changes) going for it. I like its take on technology, interstellar travel, races, social structure and scope. I’m not too… Read more »
I didn’t want to give the impression I wasn’t familiar with the IP. I had all the 1st and 2nd ed books and I’ve dipped into it now again since then. Part of the reason I’ve never been able to get into it since 2nd ed (at which time it was one of only two wargames I even knew existed which is mainly why I played) in large part because I don’t connect at all with the setting.
Thats a very very valid point as I really struggled with that too, I suppose the Horus heresy started to give it a context I was able to build from. (Probably should have mentioned that in the vid lol) But there is sooooo much chod that has entered the background that I just ignore. I suppose the danger here is that it’s MY INTERPRETATION of the background that I’m rating so highly. Sit me down with an ‘expert’ in the IP and she might completely burst my bubble on that and show me that what I thought was the IP… Read more »
I don’t think it does matter as long as you connect with your version of the setting. I’m sure this applies equally to Star Wars (and the likes of the Marvel Universe). Different people will take different things from it. I did quite enjoy the original Rogue Trader setting, which was very much in the same vein as 2000AD which I also really enjoyed at the time. It’s the 2nd ed onwards that I didn’t like, especially when it became all about Space Marines and ‘Only War’. That was just dull. If you’re not into these armies fighting each other… Read more »
I realised as soon as I hit ‘Submit’ on that comment that I was probably going to get the ‘yeah but there are stories which aren’t about war’. I’m talking about the tone of the setting rather than the granularity of all the stories.
Let’s be honest your not far off on the granularity of the setting either lol 😉
Love my grimdark. Its the only thing keeping me in lol.
I remember finding the Traveler universe the most thought out Universe for playing in. The nostalgic part of my brain wants to revisit
Space Opera and Traveler are great games. As a GM, I created adventures along the Star Trek theme with players exploring alien worlds and helping lost colonies, etc. nostalgic for the early 1980’s RPG experimental gaming.
Traveller was awesome. One of the best rpg’s ever.
Red benefits I’m getting back into war gaming after 25 years off being away, I bought my first Citadel miniatures and thought this hobby was awesome. Now GW makes me want to puke
Talking about distribution one of the big ones will have to be Wrath of Kings this side of the Atlantic
Dia Cash have it and stock is currently winging its way to the UK from Spain.
I am sorted between me and a mate we have 4 full KS starters -with a number of extras thrown in for good luck 😉
But even should they get UK distribution tomorrow, the impact of the Kickstarter have been blunted this side of the Atlantic
+1 it’s a shame there isn’t any apparently distribution deal for this in the UK
There is and stock is currently in transit from the distributor to UK stores.
Re keeping a number of games going. Farnborough War Games used to run a staggering spectrum of games. But that meant the games would have to have 2-4pages of core rules so that people could pick up the rules to a new game in 5 mins and get playing. Like you say as well, the number of models you need to have a good game has a huge factor. When I see how many models you need, starting a new Warhammer 40k is intimidating. A friend is telling me about Mallifaux – sounds like you can play nicely with JUST… Read more »
I don’t think I’ve ever fielded a Malifaux force with that many models. It’s usually been 10 or less.
And that’s what exciting. I can even paint 10 in a weekend.
Just getting into Malifaux myself. The models are wonderful. Time-consuming to build, but a real delight. And you don’t even need 20 models. Just 10 or so, and a deck of cards. And it’s fun. In my first game I jammed a massive demon in a box and ran off with it. Quality.
This is sounding more and more doable. Add in a community here and the fact it doesn’t mean painting more space marines. I love marines. But I have an army of about 300, so …
I’m fortunate to have a few experienced players in my local club, so I had an easy way in. I bought a boxed set (The Guild’s Judgement) which gives me a Master, a henchman, a totem (weird buff model) and three awesome burning cowboys leaping off coffins, and a box of three absolutely sick-looking riflemen. This was about £40. I bought the budget rulebook (sans fluff) for £10 and a deck of cards for £6 or so (you can use a standard deck). That’s enough for a bunch of games, until you want to branch out. I would say though,… Read more »
‘Ornate’ – that is a perfect description.
I played Malifaux when it first came out. I loved the settings and the minis. I could not wrap my head around the card mechanics and the game play distracted so much from the experience that I never picked it up. it seemed to be novelty for the sake of novelty.
40k has better intellectual property than star wars or star trek? U wot mate? That is all very subjective, saying one has better intellectual property and is easier to pull you in over another depends totally on the person. That being said, looking at all three from the outside 40k is arguably the weakest, the other 3 have the ability to take the story forward, either through video games, table top games, movies, books or TV shows. 40k’s most sucessful stories are set 10000 years prior to what’s actually happening right now in 40k. The game hasn’t progressed, in story… Read more »
It nicked it from Nemesis the Warlock :p
Star Wars started when George Lucas nicked the story from Kurosawa’s Hidden Fortress – a very narrow sub-plot of a story that then needed a whole Universe created around it. Much like Middle Earth Many IPs start narrow, maybe from some concept art, with a few minis and rules but then the fluff comes second to present that context.
Star Trek was the American New Frontier story retold, ( heck – it’s even in the title talk over) but this time with the 60s ethic of not displacing and killing anyone or thing that got in their way.
Wasn’t that ‘suggested’ by Going Underground by the Jam?
No need to get annoyed it’s just an opinion 🙂
And one I’m happy to debate 🙂
I saw this as IP when it comes to gaming.
no I was just going off on one about the wider appeal of each of the IP’s 🙂
Typical running off on a tangent from me lol
At least they didn’t go down the turning into giant space slug tangent dune went with… But I wouldn’t say dune was the only universe they pillaged for fluff. I mean the main plot of the bible gets borrowed as well as once and future king (then again king Arthur is Victorian Jesus 2.0) nevermind all the barely concealed film references. I’ll admit that the unending war side of things gets stale in novel form but the shorts you used to get in the citadel journel, inferno and monthly WD were quite good. Seems a shame that the most interesting… Read more »
Well im a fan all three (wars, trek, 40k) Least 40k has only made one terrible movie, star wars had three 😉 Technically, star wars storyline hasn’t advanced since return of the Jedi, so that’s not exactly a detracting point and star trek just shat over everything with the reboots lol. Of course it’s just my opinion. Ooo, and remember, star wars gave us Jar Jar Binks… But that’s subjective 😉
jar jar isn’t that bad seems as smart as the a standard politician look at Bushes’ friend went hunting and shot his friend?
Star Wars lost it with RotJ. I saw the little teddy-bears and left!
I agree with redben, on the book front, I’ve got nothing wrong with the fluff, but the quality of the writing is on a par with cheap airport bodice rippers, the quality of the writing really is too terrible for words.
Warren maybe Manny (sorry if I butchered the spelling) is like the omen and made you trip for the lulz? 😛
“what daddy didn’t kiss me goodbye? He’ll pay!”
Happy Sunday.
I’ve had the same problem with the GW fiction. The only books I’ve managed to read are the books Abnett has written. Apart from those I struggle to get past the opening chapter. As for getting into games it can be a number of things.
I left warhammer because I wanted a smaller quicker and cheaper game to play and fell in love with the Operation Icestorm box for Infinity. The beautiful miniatures helped.
Id be up for the Hoth battle in London as long as I can get a babysitter lol
The Ian Watson novels were brilliant. But they seem to have gone in the direction of WW2 pulp almost. It’s all grim, grim, grim. Grim men fighting grim battles in grim cities against grim enemies. I admire GW for carving out a niche, but I got out of Warhammer because the niche started to feel old (and it cost too much). I, too, am now lost to Infinity. As a narrative, it has more nuance, more light and shade. GW is always about unwavering good against unremitting evil. It’s a little dull, tbh.
Other than sex (and let’s be honest there isn’t a single credible relationship anywhere in 40k, probably makes the writers giggle too much to contemplate writing about it 🙁 )
Having clearly defined goodies and baddies certainly has helped a lot of IP achieve wider success, especially in movies and video games
However HALO is certainly a much more shades of grey take on IP and that is why it just feels more modern (same with infinity)
Good post! 🙂
I totally agree. In Infinity, each faction can be seen as good or bad, depending on your point of view. It feels very modern, just like the actual world we live in! And it references real politics (Bakunin, etc) and issues we might actually face like AI, etc. HALO has that too. It’s a universe you want to get lost in, and write your own narrative campaigns for. It’s good to have heroes and villains, but they have to be interesting, right? Take Han Solo (shoots a guy in cold blood under a table) or Obi-Wan (settles a bar-room brawl… Read more »
Much as I love them as a player, could you explain the ‘good’ side of Combined Army please 😉
The EI love the tool that is the combined army, and they try to do what is best for it – like killing off humanity and any one else in the way
Rare is the scifi book with credible relationships full stop. A staggeringly large number of authors have a side line writing erotic fiction under pseudonyms. One of my favorite authors Neil Asher regularly ruins great books with poorly executed love scenes and titillating passages. Perhaps its the fact that often those bits are unnecessary to the plot that they feel as gratuitous as the random nudity you got in predator 2…
…there was a moment between the marine character and the sister in ‘Warrior Coven’ (I think that was it). Maybe I just read too much into it!
Talking about getting into new games… I got into Infinity for two reasons. First, I saw the miniatures and the art style, and as an anime and Space Opera fan (Iain M Banks, Alistair Reynolds…) and being tired of the big, bulky He-man style models in a lot of wargames, I fell in love with the aesthetic straight away. Second, the logic of the game mechanics made sense to me. There was no “move and then shoot” stuff that made me think, “why can’t my guy step out, shoot, and then duck back behind cover again?” In Infinity, the models… Read more »
With you on that call. You forgot “it’s always your turn” and the need to keep focussed.
Hell yes! I’ve never played anything that is so immersive… you just can’t get out! It’s the most exciting and gripping game I’ve played because you feel as much terror in your own turn as you do in your opponent’s!
Playing Infinity is like dancing with the devil. You keep going until the music stops.
Happy Sunday – quite a few early risers today!
About the laser cutters, if someone would give you one of those expensive ones you should take it… it doesnt’ make a difference when it comes to content!
A file designed by someone with a cheap one will work on an expensive one and vice versa. It’s the file format that counts, not the cutter.
What gets me into a game is a mix of miniatures and rules. I’ve tried to like Malifaux and WWX but I dunno what it is about those games that just doesn’t appeal to me, I’ve been to the websites and watched the videos etc but I just can’t make the leap. Infinity was a different story, as soon as I saw BOW’s Operation Icestorm video I just had to get my hands on some Infinity models, I love the mini’s, the setting, the rules and the anime art style. With Warhammer Fantasy I was a big Lizardmen fan until… Read more »
Too many games, too little time.
Happy Sunday!
Spray paint cans are not safe to puncture even when empty. I am not sure it is a problem making a static piece of terrain out of them.
do you know why?
There is still gas, paint and pressure. Opening a can of spray paint with a can opener will prove dangerous even if it is empty – from personal experience. Luckily, I were glasses.
For a real explosion, you can put the can in a fire pit. Even empty, it will explode with bits of metal and a ball of flame. I do not recommend it. But if you need a bomb….
Spray cans once empty are still pressure vessels, so extreme changes in temperature are bad, even when its at equal pressure to atmosphere. The best thing to do is dump ’em, but the way to disarm them (it will be messy) is hold the button down till nothing comes out, then yank the nozzle off and ream the hole out with a pin vice and a pretty big drill bit,(no power tools) make sure you keep at it till the drill moves freely and you have a clear channel to the inside then make a hole at the bottom big… Read more »
You can puncture them, but as always, with caution and outside. My experience with “popping” them is on construction job sites where you don’t want kids painting the heavy equipment with useless graphics. We’d place them underfoot like a croquet ball and tap the bottom with an axe or rock hammer. Paint goes everywhere with the depressurization.
For what you want, you’d probably want to hammer a nail through a board as a puncture base. Just don’t stab yourself or get sprayed in the face.
Shoot it with a crossbow from a distance, problem solved 😉
Nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
For me the problem it felt that episodes I-III were in some part designed to sell toys. The story felt like a second thought sometimes, and Lucas was more concerned with creating Toy friendly characters that he could sell by the container load.
For me they they fell apart as soon as Lucas forgot about his own universe and started to contradict things he himself had either written or approved. He was too busy.seeing doller signs. I think its in safe hands now tho. Disney have shown with the marvel films they are capable of delivering.
They are still trying to sell toys though. They just successfully got me to start buying them again with the marvel movies 😛
yes they aren’t in it for the money?
Ok everyone have fun 🙂
I’m off for a week without Internet (terrifying lol)
Catch up with you all when I get back 🙂
Hi all. Great weekender.
For me the thing that makes me pick up a new game is ‘2 player sets’. If I can get everything I need to have 2 playable forces and rules for less than £100 quid. I was on the fence for DZC for a long time, but as soon as the 2 player box come out I picked it up.
On the topic of getting into a new game, there is a lot to discuss. Truly elegant games are quick to learn and challenging to master. Party games like Apple’s to Apple’s for example. As I think of getting people into a new game, two examples come to mind in my past. Magic the gathering: I introduced several people to MTG when it first came out. They all stayed with it for years. D&D: I introduced it to someone that was totally not into RPG’s, he became a D&D nut and played for years. As you said in the video,… Read more »
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/whyxq1.jpg[/IMG]
Im a novice to 3d printing. Had a plug and play printer for about 4 weeks and here is some of the prints
@fox40 those look pretty decent, better than some resin miniatures I’v bought in the past. What scale did you print them in and where did you get the files?
http://i58.tinypic.com/whyxq1.jpg
That ED209 is sweeet!
Great show guys. I get drawn into games by the quality of the models and the fluff, I also consider the rules in case I decide to actually play it. I do buy minis mainly as a collector, so I’m not too fussed if the rules are poo.
As far as the terrain printing, I’d prefer if you went the way of 3D printing. The laser cutting comes across as a bit last gen
I’ve got a feeling laser cutting has a bit of room to develop further though, in terms of what it can achieve. I don’t think it’s done yet.
Re Star Wars fluff – there is a wealth of background outside the movies. For anyone who hasn’t had a chance yet I highly recommend the clone wars cartoon series. Re Starting new games – of greater concern for me is how to NOT get sucked into new games especially when beasts of war cover something cool. Currently I’m trying to limit it to Infinity and Bolt action. Ronnie has me thinking about picking up some Samurai for Kings of War. Discussions at the recent bootcamp and the occasional mention on BoW has me sneaking looks at a group of… Read more »
Just stay away from Kickstarters and you will be Grand