Weekender XLBS: How Soon Is Too Soon?
September 23, 2018 by brennon
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Theme tune for XLBS Radio on Video – Video killed the radio star ?
lol
Won’t get to watch till tomorrow, but I thought I’d go ahead and chime in. When I first started gaming in the late 70’s/early 80’s WWII board games and 20mm minis games were already a thing and it didn’t seem to bother anyone and only a mere 30+ years had past. Fast forward to the late 90s/early 2000’s and while there were games covering Viet Nam there seemed to be more people against playing a game based on that conflict even though it had also been 30+ years. I think a lot of it could be/have been the type of… Read more »
@warzan perhaps the next time I run a moderns game I’ll place it in the country of Warzanistan.
Happy Sunday!
HappySunday!!
Oh dear! Despite what several pages on the interweb and Warren says, Humpty Dumpty being a cannon is I’m afraid ‘xl-BS’. It was one of a series of deliberate spoof histories of nursery rhymes began by an Oxford professor in the 1950s and is a case study now for ‘fake news’. If you’re that gullible… I’m a Nigerian prince and, following my recent visit from my homeland to see Salisbury Cathedral’s 123m spire, have decided to share my wealth of $3.6 billion usd with the first person to PM me their bank details including any online PINS and passwords. As… Read more »
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Wow, thanks very much for the mention and featuring my comment! I should mention the beginning of that comment was posted by @onlyonepinman – I was responding to a point he’d brought up in last week’s episode. It’s not quite 2:00 in the morning here … so I can’t watch the whole episode or repond in full quite yet (I promise I will in the morning) … But for now … “How soon is too soon?” Short answer: It is never too soon, at least not from a “moral” standpoint. Long answer: It’s a sliding scale, and it depends on… Read more »
And last bit before bed … Regarding Battle of the Boyne, and “you can’t detach the cultural aspect of it.” I would argue that’s exactly what you have to do. When you look at wargaming an engagement like Battle of the Boyne and reflect its cultural significance, you’re actually distorting the event by imprinting today’s perceptions back onto the event in a way that did not apply when the event was taking place. Like John Gardner write: “History never looks like history when you are living through it.” This is why I’m always especially interested when people in the UK… Read more »
yes I agree ofcourse you can detach it, i suppose what we meant but didn’t explain so well was. Here in northern Ireland there are a couple of hundred band parades between March and August with a focal point taking place on the 12 of July where parades take place all over the country.
All of it directly about the Battle of the Boyne.
So it was a case of that 400 year old battle still resonating significantly and publicly within the culture.
🙂
Yes, I’m familiar with the Battle of the Boyne and how it’s observed in Ireland to this day.
All I’m saying (and it sounds like we agree on this) is that if you want to wargame the battle seriously, or really study the battle in any meaningful way, you have to take the 399 subsequent years out of the equation and look at the battle objectively.
Of course, when the event takes place “in your neighborhood” it can be easier said than done.
yep agreed mate 🙂
very much so infact! excellent point!
Good Morning everyone! Raining like cats and dogs this morning in Germany! Forecast is 100% chance of rain for the rest of the day. Feels like i’m sitting right there with you guys in Coleraine!!! Looking forward to this morning’s show! Sitting down with my 1st and 2d breakfast and have some FOW Germam Heavy mortar teams to paint today! Let the show begin! Cheers!!!
Happy Sunday @silverfox8!
@brennon‘s commentary from 1:30:30 to 1:31:15 – these 45 second, are solid gold. THIS is the point I’ve been trying to get across, from as far back as that Ukraine series to this day. If you’re in the mood for a “beer and pretzels” type game, yes… there is definitely such a thing as too soon. If you’re approaching it from a historical, analytical, respectful, or educational angle, there is no such thing as too soon. The difference is intent, as Ben said so well. This is why I feel there’s a difference between some wargames and most video games.… Read more »
Happy Sunday 🙂 and yay for the popfilters, the sound is sooo much better to listen to 🙂
getting there step by step mate. keep the feedback flowing 🙂
I think the problem with refighting the Battle Of The Boyne is that it is so one sided its very hard to balance it so the player playing James II has some chance. But on to the topic . “is it too soon ?”. I believe its very personal. Like Sam I have never played the Germans in a WW2 game. Now I have no problems with people who wish to do so as I think most gamers understand the history of what the German army in its many parts played in WW2 and that in the end they are… Read more »
Would it need re-balancing to that extent? My understanding is that James’ inexperience forced him to direct far more forces than were necessary west to oppose the second crossing upstream at Roughgrange. Had cooler heads prevailed, the presence of more infantry and emplaced artillery could have turned the main crossing into an even greater bloodbath for the Dutch and Danish units in the vanguard.
And regarding the theme, a decade or so ago when Flames of War came out/became available in Germany, it was a huge discussion and issue if it’d be okay to play second world war, and for I’d say 90% of Germans interested playing aGerman force was a no-go, this changed a lot but for not gamers it is still a huge shock to see people playing WW2 let alone German forces. Then where is the discussion of historic accuracy and is it necessary to put on symbols. I started a DAK force at the time and have a Bold action… Read more »
Would definitely agree with your comments. I’ve been playing FOW here with my German friends in Wiesbaden for about four years now. I play Germans and when we play in each others homes they have no issues with the symbols etc… Several of them do also play german forces but have had to explain that to other friends that are not gamers. When we had a store to play in we would not bring anything with those symbols just to make sure we did not offend anyone.
really interesting insight, thanks for that!
Ben is correct in my opinion. Hurricane’s saved Britain (well you know they played a major part, the Sea helped a bit too) and you could build more Hurricane’s than Spitfire’s for the same cost. @warzan time to burst the bubble at least on the archer case. Also a slight misunderstanding. The Waffen SS and SS-Totenkopfverbände got a bit mixed up here. I think John thought you were referring to the 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf, which was a part of the Waffen SS, rather than the SS-TV which were the SS-Totenkopfverbände who guarded the camps. Totenkopf has nothing to… Read more »
thanks for the clarifications!
Important to note though some of the original members of the 3d SS DIV were drawn from some of the early camp guards.
By the same token they were also not necessarily evil men.
Not all the camp guards were fanatical psychos.
Gets into an awkward area there @silverfox8. Dachau was originally an expansion of the German prison system not all that dissimilar in concept or design to the open prisons or migrant detention centres we see today – a cheap, rapid capacity expansion programme for an existing system buckling under the weight of the influx of prisoners (the change being that thought was now a crime). Granted, its inception had been to house the rapid influx of political prisoners (soon to be forced labourers) but can you discern the newly employed guards in 1933 from pre-1933 Wiemar era prison guards? Not… Read more »
Would definitely agree, but expect some of the early guards that jumped at the chance to go to a military unit were those trying to remove themselves from camp guard duty which could not have been a positive place as you highlight above. My biggest concern is we should not lump all of any category of person into a generality. Specificity matters.
Visited Dachau back in 1999, it was a real eye opener and helped to frame this dark part of history. It was definitely one of those places that you could ‘feel’ the gravity of history.
@elessar2590 –
“Totenkopf has nothing to do with the National Socialists it’s an old Prussian Badge just like the Iron Cross, the Nazi’s subverted and made a part of their Iconography rather than inventing new symbols.”
I can’t find any right now, but several people have made video lists along the lines of: “Top Twelve Thing Ruined by the Nazis.” Some are wry humor, others … not so much.
Zeppelins
The music of Wagner
The writings of Nietzsche
Der Königgrätzer Marsch
The writings of von Clausewitz
Fanta soda
The Volkswagen
Hugo Boss
Porsche
The Autobahn
Frederick the Great
The Swastika
Yeah I can’t remember exactly but the Totenkopf were either the 3rd or 5th Hussars under Frederick the Great and pretty sure Blucher was their commander during the Napoleonic Wars. Crown Prince Michael was the commander in chief in WW1
@silverfox8, @elessar2590 – the military history / reputation of the Waffen SS is a tricky subject. I’ve written a little on this (at least partially – focusing on 2nd SS Das Reich at Kursk) and … i feel it’s pretty clear that the war crimes rate is exponentially higher among these units than among typical German Wehrmacht formations. So yes, the Waffen SS were soldiers that have to be set apart from the Allgemeine or TK SS … but … they’re well-steeped in no small amount of butchery, too. I guess it’s a “scale of gray” with different levels, with… Read more »
Happy Sunday
Chap o/
For the BoB the Hurricane was far easier to repair being made if would and fabric the ground crew could just glue new pieces of fabric on top of bullet holes etc. The spitfire being made of metal took a lot longer as whole panels would need replaced when repairing the damage
Crazy that now we can use speed tape for battle damage repair for bullet holes, which is just essentially a thick foil sticky tape when it is tertiary structure 🙂
Hurricanes for the win!
Hi all I was part of the British Army Germany for over 14 years. I work as a civilian in Hohne Garrison for the 7th Armoured Brigade. We played table games in our club (Hohne War Games Club). That was a great time. We have played many different games. But we’ve never played modern Warfare because you cannot play this type of game when your friends have to go to Iraq. Afghanistan or some other fucking place in the world. In this context, it just does not feel right to play modern wars and I think it’s not correct either.… Read more »
your point of view and context is interesting and completely valid. May i ask which games you played? The reason i ask is that anything in the historical genre has been real life for someone and it would be interesting to see if their opinion mirrors your own. Perspective and context is important in all things and is often the part that is sanitised in debates.
Hi
I like to play historical games. You can immerse yourself in the past and experience old battles. By the way, you learn something about the history. But one should be aware that you play the stories of real people.
For me it’s just a difference whether these real people are in front of you or whether they are already passed away. That’s just my “too soon” limit.
Games I played: Bolt Action, Warhammer, Warhammer 40000, Warhammer Gothic, Lord of the Rings, Kugelhagel, Steinhagel, Firepower, Blackpowder… .
Totally respect your opinion and position, I just don’t necessarily share it. I would respectfully add that people who died in a war 500 years ago are just as real as those who died last week. Needless to say, I don’t feel that way about sci fi or fantasy wargames. Those people really are imaginary. But it almost makes the wargames … kind of pointless in my view. That said, I totally respect any gamer (especially another veteran) who doesn’t want to play a wargame set “too soon.” I would just add that for those of us that do choose… Read more »
That with respect is a good point. When we play historical game, we show our respect for people. I think that’s a good way to do it.
„We will remember them“
🙂
Morning all! Lovely bright sunny morning down here which is lush after the week of winds n rain. Hope yer all having a great weekend. Coffee is loaded, to the studio Batman – it’s XLBS time!!
bout ye
I think it can depend on the subject matter not just how long ago it was.. Who can forget the “Salutegate” affair when many complained about the Re-enactors invited to the show that were wearing SS uniforms and selling Hitler Mugs. And they rebutted that you could by flags and transfers for tanks from other vendors so didn’t see what the problem was. As a rule “in living memory” seems to be a good benchmark to take, and all you need to do is be a little careful on how people (not just wargamers) might view the subject. I’ve played… Read more »
Well @warzan when are you going to discuss an easy topic? To me it’s about context, knowledge, empathy, people’s personal journey, where they are in that journey, where you are in the world and where you have been. Me – born Londoner, lived in the English countryside for a bit, spent most of my life in New Zealand and feel a proud Kiwi, so I’m living with some the effects of what a colonised land goes through when it tries to reconcile those two sides. Both parents were alive during WWII. I have two step-siblings that are half Aussie and… Read more »
Happy Sunday, will save this for later today when my brain is more awake as XLBS requires more concentration now 😀
first half of show requires little grey matter mate 🙂 should be very familiar.
@warzan I have four hungry kids and a Sunday roast to butcher so you and the team are keeping me company right now.
lol
There are a number of fighting fantasy books that go well together. Caverns of the snow witch ends with the hero heading to stonebridge to see his dwarf friend so Forest of Doom makes a good follow up. Trial of champions is followed by Armies of Death and of course there is stevve jacksons sorcery series.
looking forward to visiting the sorcery series with them
From an outsider’s perspective, as some have already written, it is easier to judge a wargame as being objectionable as there is not the context of a story or reason why from what they can see…. They don’t see that @oriskany, for example – hope you don’t mind – has done a heap of research and understands the setting, reasons why the conflict is being fought or is a veteran himself. I think films, radio, even computer games might have an easier time of things as they can, and I stress can, provide more of a historical context and personal… Read more »
Some interesting pints here, @hobbyhub – First off, I certainly don’t kind at all – your mention was respectful and complimentary. 😀 I certainly hope Lucas wasn’t drawing the Ewoks as a VC / NLF analog … if he was, he needs to read a few more books on the subject. Unless I missed the scene were Ewoks were murdering tens of thousands of other Ewoks who were collaborating with the Empire. 🙁 On the subject of Star Wars, I will admit I REALLY DID NOT like the Jedha scene in Rogue One where the “heroic” insurgents gunned down the… Read more »
interesting how perspective comes into play as I hadnt made the connection in the jedha scene.
I do now though!
Really interesting discussion this morning, and it strikes right to the heart of my recent change in attitude toward historical (especially WWII games). About a year ago I stopped skipping the historical content on BoW. I watched some of @oriskany ‘s desert war content, and just mentioned it in passing in a conversation with my mum shortly after. I then discovered that my grandfather (her Dad) was in El Alamein. That was a flip point for me. I suddenly felt a sense of responsibility as a wargamer (albeit predominantly sci fi) to explore the terrifying reality of real world war.… Read more »
fascinating comment mate.
if we as a community can help you with your research just let us know!
Thanks @warzan. I have literally just pinged my mum to see what she knows!
excellent!
Definitely please feel free to share any details you feel comfortable. My Aunt died recently and we found her father’s (My Great-Grandfather) captured Japanese NCO Katana in her house. Very cool, I managed to find the Serial Markings and trace it back to the factory where it was made. Family history is a brilliant way to “Break into” Historicals plus it will make you closer to your family (past and present) which is always a good thing, plus it can be a good thing to know medically. A lot of guys who served in the Pacific bought home some horrendous… Read more »
My mum says he was in the King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. My Uncle said he was a Desert Rat. I’m not sure those two facts stack up together but it certainly gives a starting point for some reading!
You need to see which battalion he was in as regiments did get split up and served all over the place at the same time
I think I can help with this, @darkdanegan, if you’d like me to and if you’d be interested. Some of my fondest moments as Historical Editor so far have been when people approached me, wither at Boot Camps or in PMs, saying things like: “We were moving house and found an old box of Grandpa’s things in the attic. He never talked about his experiences in such-and-such conflict, but I was wondering if you could tell me a little about this or that, based on what we found. Here’s a shoulder flash, here’s a certain medal, here’s a document. We’d… Read more »
Awesome – thanks @Oriskany I have found some more info and sent you a PM!
No worries at all, @darkdanegan.
Again, this is one of the best things about being Historical Editor.
I have found some initial research that lines up with what you presented in your PM, and sent some preliminary results back to you as well as links for further research.
We can get stuck back into this if you want when I return from Ireland for the Boot Camp. 😀
Absolute legend – thank you so much!
No worries at all, sir. 🙂
Happy Sunday all.
very interesting show thank you 🙂
Ive been trying to read Firetop Mountain with my 7 year old. Look forward to see what you have done with it @warzan
I will keep you posted
Interesting topic, but it’s interesting how @dracs was raving about Secret Hitler… Yet can’t deal with playing ww2 games because of things like the SS etc yet Hitler was the guy at the head of all this. In my opinion it’s about the type of conflict and the aspects of the conflict that you play. I think also the fact that war movies also help, but with WW2 they were making war films during the conflict so you had that good vs bad it was propaganda. But it also glorified war to some extent which has carried on into Wargames.… Read more »
he also said he enjoyed dads army. it’s about the level of abstraction 🙂
I think the trouble with Hitler is that he has become a caricature of what he was and it is the caricature that is identified with in many social references. The megalomaniac raving at events like the Nuremburg rallies; a ridiculous over the top array of swastikas, arm waving, spittle flying ranting is what is remembered first. The rise to power with a brutal subversion of a nations political system, the indoctrination of a generation to regard themselves as superior and the evil and violence done in his name appears to slip into the background, leaving the caricature of Hitler… Read more »
that is definately the case for many here in the UK.
Hitler has definately been recast as a comic villain in many ways
Trust me, I spotted the contradiction. It left me thinking what the reason was for some time afterwards. In the end, it really did boil down to abstraction for me. The Hitler of Secret Hitler is presented as that cartoon villain, almost a Scooby Doo villain. You spend the whole game trying to unmask them and their card even presents them as a Reptilian (it was old man Poots all along!). However, hidden among that is actually a surprisingly good satirical look at the balance between left and right wing politics and the struggle between political public persona and actual… Read more »