Weekender XLBS: Exploring Gaming’s Deeper Topics
September 16, 2018 by crew
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Happy Sunday!!!
Happy Sunday to you too mate!
1st ! Second show with no Ben ! I really miss him . As a Canadian who has traveled coast to coast many times , I can state that there are no mountains in Manitoba . Totem poles are used by tribes on the west coast ( Haida , Salish ). As a history buff , the idea of putting people into box cars would tell me right off the bat what the Train game was about . To play it would make me uncomfortable . And yet I have on my shelves quite a few 28mm tanks painted up… Read more »
Sorry mate you appear to be second, enginseer pipped you. Now for falsely claiming first there will be consequences …. Prepare yourself 😀
Very strange as three were no comments here when I posted . I ‘m very sorry and will not do it again . Now to find a corner to stand in and reflect upon my misdeeds
Yeah it’s interesting the blurry line of what each of us find acceptable. I sence a discussion topic in this too…
There were also separate Branches of the SS which make playing them on the tabletop less controversial. The guys we play wargames with are the Waffen SS. Armed SS, the military wing of the National Socialist Party. The guys who exterminated 11 Million people were the SS-TV. The SS Totenkopfverbände, Death’s head SS. It might be a small difference to people on the outside looking in but most Historical Wargamers (in my personal experience) won’t have the same apprehension towards a Waffen SS “army” as people who don’t know the difference between the Waffen SS and the SS-TV. Context and… Read more »
I tend to agree with your comment on the train cars game. I actually got suspicious while the crew were still describing the game and was not in the least surprised by the reveal. But then I am German and that brings with it a certain sensitivity for the topic. But that just goes to show that the German school system did a very good job of putting society back on track. And it could be argued that showing up anyone who doesn’t notice beforehand was the point of the game. If in this context it can serve and be… Read more »
As a Brit, the idea of cramming people into Box Cars would make me think it was a game about the current state of British Railways.
Happy Sunday. Regarding the Manitoba thing you have to keep in mind that Germany has not such a history with Native americans, and there it’s usually nowadays perceived as people who suffered tremendously under americans. There is defo a lack of understanding that all these cliches even if perceived positive in Germany are perceived as an insult by Native Americans.
Yep today’s push back on appropriation of culture is going to potentially pose some significant practical problems for society going forward.
We see something similar with certain Asian countries casually using SS uniforms in entertainment. The same kind of problem exists for wargames and movies. Any time a game or movie choses a fictional approach to the setting there is a chance that those who survived and those who value the history feel insulted. Battlefield V and its portrayal of certain elements (a woman with prostetic arm … ) has led to similar controversy. One also needs to mention the Winnetou series by Karl May (German author) that was (and is?) popular in Germany. There were even movies in the early… Read more »
We Germans just love our noble “Indians”. The entire Western “Cowboys and Indians” genre has in German culture moved away from its historical roots and has always been taking quite a few liberties. As you have said, the picture drawn of Native Americans by German literature and film is not always accurate or even suitable for an international audience. But as a bachelor of culture sciences and linguistics I have to say that failing to do this kind of research, or worse not caring to do it or about it, especially if you aim for an international release, is just… Read more »
Happy Sunday
Happy Sunday!!
Going to have to download this to listen to on a long drive north. Better be interesting and not se d me to sleep…
pack a pillow and a blanket mate 😉
Happy Sunday
Throwing another thought into the ring – should games have ratings like movies and TV ? 🙂
Very good point @warhound67 and actually I think a ratings body might be a good option as it could allow games to find a home.
eg it would perhaps allow the industry to more safely produce games themed around more adult orientated culture.
There could be a bunch of games in the middle though who may dislike the idea as they could find limitations on distribution if they got the wrong precieved rating though.
Very interesting point and one well worth exploring!
For another XLBS !! 🙂
indeed 😀
Game’s have a age rating @warzan but brats still get the likes of GTA then if they do something wrong the games industry gets the blame instead of the shop’s or parents giving the kid the game to start with.
I think not, I hate the age ratings, I think it has been discussed again in the distant past here, but my stance remains the same, parents and not the government should be responsible to what their children should watch. Yes, I do understand the theoretical benefit for parents, we do not have the time to review everything, but I also understand the practical and actually implemented risks of censorship movies and digital games have faced in the past decades about it. The rating system has been exploited a lot in the past both from governments to kill things they… Read more »
if it was a centralised body that provided the ratings but there was no additional legislation on display or sale restrictions
would that be a middle ground?
At least the in Germany games usually come with an age mentioned for which they should be appropriate. I thought no this is however just an advice by the publisher.
It is an interesting concept, but I am not sure it would not be abusable, if there is a list then it will be displayed and enforced in some way, if only because oft he body will want to have an impact to justify their existence (and salary). And a centralised body can be abusive if it cannot be called into question, Australia on the digital games (and movies) has been called many times to abuse the rating system to ban products the government does not want to see and a usual critique on the movies world is that Spielberg… Read more »
Parents ARE responsible for what their child watches. A Parent can still allow a child to watch an adult rated movie (R, 18 etc depending on your location) in their own home. The government can prevent a minor from doing so in a public space, such as a cinema, thus devolving all responsibility for the consequences of a child viewing inappropriate material squarely onto the parents who allowed the child to do so. A ratings system isn’t necessarily the government telling parents what their children can watch, it’s placing the responsibility for what they watch onto them. The issues arise… Read more »
In my opinion this is an idealised version of the idea behind ratings, in reality companies want to make money, the PEGI rating practically cuts off sections of the market, one way or the other and companies alter their products or never develop products that would cut off sections of the market because the higher ups see it as potentially cutting off sales. Lets take for example in our hobby 40k, from fluff alone its an AO game, how much you bet GW is willing to throw out to make it again 12+ ? do you think now that 40k… Read more »
PEGI is not legally binding and to my knowledge hasn’t noticeably caused game developers to change their games. There are still some fairly controversial games out there. It’s generally public opinion and the Internet mob that cause games developers to alter their products, not the PEGI rating system. They’re also incredibly useful if you have children, in giving you a reference point to start making a decision from. In the case of 40k it would most likely get a PEGI 12 because although it has violence as a theme, it’s no more graphic in nature than a superhero comic. You… Read more »
Interviews with developers from both movies and digital gaming industry shape another story, as an example above I said Spielberg gets away with much blood when other directors complain their movie was less violent and had a higher rating, of course this is an example of the system been exploited but shows that the label even if advisory is important to the studios. Why on earth would 40k be even considered to be 12+ the fluff is way above that and things are not implied in the fluff, artwork and models are quite brutal and gruesome, actually looking at Space… Read more »
Because it’s the depiction of a theme that drives the rating, not the theme specifically. 40k, while it is steeped in violence, doesn’t explicitly portray it. Rolling dice Removing inanimate playing pieces from a tabletop is not the same as watching someone gun someone down in full glorious technicolour.
That is a super interesting point. I wonder if the lack of rating system is to do with board games and war games being so abstracted from a lot of viscerally violent adult content that there has been no real need for a regulatory system to jump in. But also, are we as players suitably distanced from the idea of any violence being committed on the board because it is almost a top-down perspective that we take? Is it a combination of immersion and player identity? Myself and @johnlyons were having a super interesting discussion on Friday about player identity… Read more »
Most games do have a suggested age rating (warhammer, for example, is stated to be 12 + I believe), but you’re right, I don’t believe there is a universal standard for rating.
The 12+ rating is for legal reasons, there is an expensive and lengthy (mostly) chemical testing to verify your product as suitable for ages under 12 and it must be done per language version, I do not remember but it may need to be done again if any component or factory change, most companies simply put a 12+ label on the product and avoid the extra cost that can be crippling for the average game manufacturer.
I think that type of age rating is more “Do we think someone under 12 will be able to grasp the rules as a whole. Not all the crazy chaos, death and genocide. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s always how i took it.
Most age ratings on toys and games are derived from the complexity of the rules and the size of the components. They’re not based on the subject matter of the games. PEGI ratings are based on the subject of a game and are advisory – I would be happy to see such a system on games to help parents make a more informed choice. But I don’t want to see a full on BBFC style classification/censorship system where games could potentially be banned outright or made illegal for sale to under 18s. I guess there’s just a level of abstraction… Read more »
I have read/ saw many companies interviews that they said they slap the 12+ label on games that could have been 6-8+ because they do not want to spend the cost to certified it for such ages and believe parents that want to take the boardgame will take it anyway regardless of the age in the box.
Morning backstagers!
It First Nations, Idiots
You are ofcourse correct (although cool the name calling we have rules as I stated at the start of the show, so give them some thought) Your point though has a real value on the ‘things we don’t know that we don’t know’ point which will come up in a future show. I struggled it seems to communicate the nature of the point to the team the other day, but I reckon this is a pretty perfect example of it in practice. So thanks for the heads up, but if we are going to keep the discussions civil and purposeful… Read more »
He isn’t correct @warzan at least not according to actual American Indian’s. A survey was done in 1995 that found that the preferred term by the native American Community was Actually “American Indian”. In 1977 there was a meeting of Native American’s in Switzerland where the term American Indian was established, by them, as their preferred name. “At an international conference of Indians from the Americas held in Geneva, Switzerland, at the United Nations in 1977 we unanimously decided we would go under the term American Indian. “We were enslaved as American Indians, we were colonized as American Indians, and… Read more »
Thanks for this. I’m not going to be put off having discussions a out things where we cannot be experts in it, I’m hoping the experts in the community can help us fill the gaps. 🙂
Well just try to be as respectful to topics where we can 🙂
Thanks again for the insight!
First Nations is the correct term for non-inuit, non-Metis indigenous groups in Canada. The Cree people were bound by a similar language but spread across northern Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan, and also a small portion of Montana.
The Cree attended the aforementioned 1977 Conference where the term American Indian was chosen. What the Government chooses to call them is irrelevant to me when they’ve already decided on a term for themselves.
A group of Non-Indians took offense on behalf of American Indians and so changed the words chosen by the American Indians to a phrase chosen by Non-Indians. That makes no sense at all.
That may be for the small minority of the Cree nation currently within US borders, but in the context of the ‘Manitoba’ Cree who lived in the northern part of the province and settled with the British government (Ojibwe and Dakota share more of a common border with the US) First Nations is preferred. The Assembly of First Nations is the Canada-wide body of chiefs that represents indigenous interests coast to coast.
It’s almost like Native Americans are individual people each with their own opinions about what they would like to be called…
Even to say ‘Native Americans’ is a very US-centric term and would only be the experience of those bands that fell within eventual US borders. Going to school in Canada in the 70’s and 80’s the term used in english history texts was always Indigenous Peoples, prior to that it was simply Indians since colonial times. Bands define themselves by common language or dialect. Where I’ve done most of my work with construction management in Ontario, we often worked closely with the Tyendinaga band. They would identify (in English) as part of the Mohawk Nation, member of the Six Nations… Read more »
Happy Sunday ?
Hmm..not convinced by this xlbs arrangement so far. The enormous array of microphones wasn’t helping. Like a radio talk show..
I thought xlbs was meant to be rather ‘unplugged’.
Looking forward to seeing what else you can come up with ?
xlbs just started out as an extension off the weekender it even had the same format. Gradually we have been moving it away from that as there is no need to produce two shows so similar. The mic array is to give the show more portability allowing it to be listened to as a podcast and un theory it should sound very good as a podcast. So if you are on the move or don’t get time to watch in one sitting you can take it with you. Likewise overwhelmingly we always get the feed back ‘I watch while I… Read more »
Pleas please get pop filters for the microphones. Decent ones are 5-10 gbp on amazon.co.uk and they will improve the sound quality tremendously.
yes we are getting some ordered up 🙂
Great show guys! It felt like a very mature, grown up, show today. A all 4 of you at the table seems to contribute well to the discussed, not always the case. I for one would like more of this kind of content. The format is good the presenters are good the audio is good. More of this please. As for my opinion on art. For me art has it’s own purpose and shouldn’t have an alternative purpose or use. I guess in the way a classic car can be beautiful but for me it isn’t art. Art for the… Read more »
agreed mate
I thought that this episode was one of the better discourses, and hope that the comments carry this torch to new areas. I would have enjoyed if there was even another hour tacked on to discuss the esoteric nature of “what is a game.” In most ways I feel that Art is ineffable. A private experience that can not be spoken or written about truthfully and be correct in a blanketing statement beyond that “Art is”. It is the want/need to have definition that causes the problem. Game as a defined experience is almost nearly as bad. I feel that… Read more »
Excellent points.
Does make me wonder about the definition of a game… hmmmm
DID SOMEONE ASK FOR THE DEFINITION OF A GAME?!? 😀
*assembles chapters upon chapters of information*
Congrats. for being brave enough to have the discussion. It’s a change to the usual light hearted Sunday mornings and I’m on the fence about whether I think this is what I want from XLBS, however, it must have done something right as I feel the need to comment even though I was planning to make my first post to the site with a Burrows and Badgers project. Overall the discussion was interesting and it brought several games to my attention that I hadn’t heard of. I would be concerned about a situation where backstage becomes an area with a… Read more »
Excellent points @redcalx 🙂 You are ofcourse correct there is no plan on backstage becoming an x rated area 🙂 however it could potentially be an area to look deeper at all things gaming. I wonder if a platform highlights a game that has a ‘darker side’ and proceeds to open discussions on it (is that necessarily promoting the darker side or is it raising awareness and discourse around it? – obviously how its presented is crucial here) (an example game would be the one about drone strikes) Backstage is some respects is a private members club in that there… Read more »
Very true and debate is certainly being encouraged.
As a business is there a significant case for covering games/minis/topics in backstage that can’t be covered elsewhere?
That mostly depends on how much the community value the independence part of the journalism and the hopefully insightful discourse that backstage could provide.
So really like anything else it depends on the viewership 🙂
I have my stances on things, but they are not a crusade for me, ultimately it is based on more practical things.
Happy Sunday! Great discussion about the issues of de-platforming and the role of “the mob” in modern journalism. I do think the “twitter mob” is a great evil today and needs to be stood against. More so in many cases than the societal “evils” it seeks to eradicate. On the specific subject of Manitoba, it looks to me like simply poorly researched art. Whatever they call it themselves. The question to me is though whether stereotyping and poorly researching Native American history and culture deserves any greater opprobrium than any other culture. Why does it create greater offence than a… Read more »
excellent points and we plan to return to the topics you raise here in the near future. I’ll be keeping copies of this post to discuss them.
Good points. I think the main difference with horned helmets on vikings is that that is such a well known mistake whereas things related to Native Americans aren’t so well known; so when a horny Viking appears it’s met with an eye roll and an exasperated sigh, but when something like the issues in Manitoba appears it goes unnoticed by the majority because they don’t realise it’s a mistake. And the comparison isn’t a perfect one; a better one would be having a game about Ancient Greeks where everyone was covered in blue woad and dressed like matadors simply because… Read more »
Good points. I’m all for a pedantic debate about “authenticity”. As long as it is done politely and with tolerance, we are all benefit from the increased knowledge. The point about debate is to try and seek out the truth, not to eliminate from public discourse ideas that the opponent considers false by force. That latter is simply fascism. It seems all too often the so-called “progressive” element in our society are hugely intolerant and repressive in their actions whilst claiming the moral high ground for themselves, and so justifying very intolerant and nasty behaviour. Looking at the debate we… Read more »
Happy Sunday guys, I am interested to see how the comments pan out on these meatier subjects if this is going to be the new format. On rare occasions in the past we have seen threads closed due to content where people have took things to heart and their passion has led to things not nice to read. For me art is not easily defined and no amount of using google or other sources gave me a definition that I felt represented my own thoughts. Over the course of your discussion I came to my own opinion of what you… Read more »
ok going off to order coasters 😉
And the camera switching was not the best and that’s my fault lol as I had the box.
Well give it a little time to settle in and maybe make some changes (although your suggestion is actually simpler but I’ll see if I can do a better job first lol)
awesome format. awesome show.
i have to have my two cents and I think there are definitely artistic elements in all games not just board games.
The ‘Manatoba’ debacle is BS. The game company have shed themselves in the worst light possible. What we have is lazy game design with careless and ill-informed theme. The artistic endeavours that went into the creation of this game do not excuse the failures in oversight by the managers of the development team.
They should apologise.
Have to agree with you there buddy. As a large platform that reports on all things tabletop games, I wonder to what degree we demand a higher standard from companies. A discussion for another XLBS certainly, but my instinct is they should be doing much much better!
Games as art. Outstanding topic. As a fan of Neil Gaiman and Kevin Hearne I’ve learned that history, myth and religion warp over time to reflect popular understanding and belief of a subject based on what people read, see and hear. As a student of history I can accept that for the sake of ‘flow’ movies and games have to simplify, adjust and modify cultures. But I have the benefit in most cases of having a much deeper understanding of the history, cultures and events depicted that puts the artistic license in perspective. Think about “300” and how warped the… Read more »
excellent points
And yes we’ll come back to the boyne and troubles etc in a future episode 🙂
Has the format for the shows changed permanently so that News, Kickstarters and previous topics aren’t being revisited or is that just because Ben’s in the wilds of Wales?
no well keep it flexible. but we haven’t covered news and ks in xlbs for some months 🙂
I was writing something similar my self but lost it. Thankfully @horus500 put it far more eloquently than I was doing.
I’m minded to get you and @avernos on the boyne show…
…you up for it?
I certainly would be, as I mentioned to you at a bootcamp one time I think the Boyne is a fascinating fight.
Not really period of interest but certainly a lot of Urban myth about that campaigns
Heavens yes.
Super interesting points @horus500 ! I certainly would love to get stuck into a discussion on the show someday about what it would mean to play games and film let’s plays set in a kind of Irish Wars or Troubles type scenario. My instinct on that is that a tabletop RPG is a more suitable starting place to explore those topics through play because it allows the social dynamics around the table to inform how a GM manages that situation.
Well a good few people already play wargames set during various periods of Irish history… it’s a very rich vein to tap into.
We play both the Irish War of Independence and the Civil War and are just starting the Williamite Wars using the Donnybrook rules.
I know a few who also game skirmishes based on The Troubles in the 70s and 80s, though I have to admit, it wouldn’t be one for me.
I have a friend who has decorated a bathroom with the Monopoly game. She framed a game board, has exagerated game pieces on shelves and found a shower curtain that is Monopoly themed. This game to her is art; beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But as for the question in general, I don’t subscribe that “is art” or “it an abstraction” allows someone to get away with anything. Gladly, games thrive in a market place. If the subject is so objectionable that the vast majority find themselves offended, the game will simply die by financial starvation. Don’t… Read more »
There is a case for that, but bad ideas can spread through society just as much as good ideas.
It’s a very tricky balance 🙂
Agreed, but I prefer to use gaming as an escape from my day to day pressures. I guess I simply avoid “issues” by the choice of games I want to, and am willing to, play.
Yep and I agree with that sentiment! 🙂
Well that horse has been flogged enough. Off to paint some Blood and Plunder. Here is a topic, “now that your kickstarter has arrived, how do you motivate one self to paint that ton of minis?” Really enjoying the new web format. Thanks for everything you and your team are doing.
I’ll pop that on the list 🙂
So engaged forgot to say, Happy Sunday! Thanks for the show.
And happy Sunday to you too mate
You guys get major kudos for using the legendary Brian Sewell for the graphic. 🙂
lol yeah I’m pretty sure Brian would have approved 😉
He probably would have complained about the font you used
Yes we fucked that up 😉
I like that you go touch on some of the more serious subjects about hobby and games and the underlying points that are not that obvious at a first glance. I don’t think you can just stick a label on things like this. There are so many things that influence the view of “is something art or not”. It is not even easy to say that something is offensive or not in the big picture, this can depend on the time and community you are from. You and your community might find something offensive but 20 years ago or in… Read more »
Mornign all – Happy Sunday folks.
bout ye big lad
Cheeky Sunday morniing. Cannae bloody paint as no glasses till monday so prep and conversion work it is with a filthy big cup of ….’weekended’ coffee in hand 😉
I’m having a day of drinking and watching substandard “professional wrestling” ^^
Start as you mean to continue. If my potato internet drops out one more time, I’m nicking a satellite ><
People are often keen to shut down institutions and individuals they are not invested in in any way. This is why backstage will always act more responsibly(?) over provocative and challenging issues on this platform. We are all invested to some degree. Casual commenters aren’t.
That is along my line of thinking 🙂
Happy Sunday @warzan, well done, well done, I am highly impressed this time, I have a much deeper appreciation of you, why we do not have these great discussions more often, a complete new and high level side of you I never knew you had and I really like to hear about more. I really appreciate more the mature and composed Warren than the funny one, please do not feel that I try to restrict you on how you behave and interact, but it was a twist I did not expect to see and I am happily surprised to have… Read more »
I’m not just a pretty face eh? 😉
No, not just a pretty face and deeply appreciating it.
Ah, but it’s OK to mock and abuse Western Cultures and history because reasons.
Very interesting. How about this as a counter/parallel to your Trains to Auschwitz Scenario. I come to OTT and we play a Historical War-game based in the Sudan in 1885. I play the British and you play the Mahdists, you win the game and we start to wrap it all up. W: “Right so what actually happened at the end of the war” E: “Well the guys you’re playing took over the Sudan for the next half decade and slaughtered/enslaved hundreds of thousands of people” Would you consider that in the same vein as the shock Holocaust reveal? If so… Read more »
That is along my thoughts, selectively shutting down ‘expressions’ is dangerous on the longer term.
The alternative (educating folk) is harder that is obvious, but leads to a more secure society in the long term.
IMHO Anyway
First I want to state an upfront caveat: None of my points below regard censorship. I also land squarely on the side of Freedom. And I agree that nothing should ever be censored or banned. Contrasting the two games mentioned above – I suppose the difference for me between your example and the Train ‘game’ is that in the game in the Sudan that you describe, the forces we control are actively shooting at each other and openly trying to kill each other. I know that my objective is the annihilation of the opposing side and that this game represents,… Read more »
I think his point is, because everybody assumes the British are the invaders here and the Mahdists are the locals a victory for the locals would be a “good thing” because the invaders were defeated.
The point of shock value would be that the assumed “good guys” and “bad guys”are reversed when the context of both sides and their future actions gets nuanced.
There were several components of his post. Some that I don’t feel qualified to speak to, some that I misread or outright missed. I may not have addressed his key point, but I also was not attempting to refute any part of it. I was trying to enlarge on a part of it. I read one of his questions as “Given the Sudan game example and the Train game example, do you consider them to be “in the same vein”? “If so why and if not why?” I took it to be phrased as an academic question. After some consideration… Read more »
It is a logical reaction and assumption in my opinion.
To wider the discussion how do you feel about the key component of the “twist” in the train game? personally I would have issue with the game designer forcing a dark theme, later in the game just to produce “shock” instead of been upfront and create a proper game for it.
Indeed. That is what I intended when I said I would feel betrayed. The ‘host’ offered up a fun game which I had worked at, laughed and joked and then the reveal comes that we were participating in something horrible rather than harmless.
I would feel that was a breach of the social contract that was established at the outset of the game.
@ludicryan If I’m misusing the term or concept of the “social contract”, please let me know.
I would call it a true bait and switch situation.