Weekender XLBS: Can We Banish The Meta From Wargaming?
September 2, 2018 by crew
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Happy Sunday
Just home from playing D&D, so time to relax
Happy Sunday @rasmus!
Happy Sunday all
Happy Sunday to you too @higgy!
Happy Sunday !!!!!1
Happy Sunday @beardragon14 🙂
*sniff* Thanks mate …. *chokes up* … that somehow makesv it all worthwhile …
Happy Sunday!! If we’re using the term ‘meta’ to mean anything (and strictly the term on its own is meaningless, it needs to be ‘meta-something’; like ‘meta-model’, ‘meta-language’ etc.) then you can’t banish it otherwise the word that follows it that you’re omitting can’t exist… Probably ‘game’ and ‘meta-game’ in this case – or even ‘rules’ and ‘meta-rules’. Let’s go with either of these as the basis for what you’re calling ‘the meta’. The games we play are abstractions of reality or fantasy that need artificial constructs we’ll collectively call the ‘static and dynamic models’ which needs to operate according… Read more »
Great Points 🙂
Looking forward to this one! Great morning so far. I have four Pork Butts on the Smoker (go ahead @warzan I know there’s already a joke spinning up in your head on that one!) going for dinner tonight. But while they are cooking i’m chilling with the guys on XLBS!!!!
Happy Sunday @silverfox8 🙂 And your butts sound delicious 😉
If the Essen Spiel team comes over early they can taste them themselves! I’m only 90 mins south of Essen Spiel!
Happy Sunday! So on the topic of a randomly generated miniature game. What happens if I get a character I don’t like or get terrible abilities like Justin brought up? I have to buy another miniature to get another random chance to get a card that suits my game play? That sounds horrific! I might as well buy blind bags of clix models. Either that or the game would be so generic as not to be a game that would be fun. If every model is balanced you might as well play chess. It’s the different combinations of imbalanced models… Read more »
What I were trying to say below – but I did end up doing it in a much more long winded way 😉
My defence is that it is 2:30am
Yeah, it would certainly be a very very different feel of game, in that you basically play what you are given and you have to place complete trust in the system that balance exists.
I’m very reluctant these days to describe anything as ‘impossible’ but certainly, the underlying challenge to create a system like that seems enormous. 🙂
Okay @warzan I will bite at this Your idea of getting an unique add on unit, while at first intriguing, become very hard at least with the resolution that we use in gaming today, move any value on a d6 and you move it 17% (roughly) on the success/failure scale so balance would be very hard to do even with 1billion play throughs by a computer. This could be mitigated by going to d100 or something, but aside from the mess of using d100s on the table top. Your unique unit loose some of the glam if it is just… Read more »
I agree on all counts mate 🙂 The chances of taking any existing system of play we know of and doing this is probably very very slim, we are most likely looking at something conceived from scratch with the resolution at a higher degree to facilitate the subtlety you would imagine it would need. If the game is going to facilitate choice to any degree then you automatically reintroduce meta (as you say above) but you could have a fixed force org perhaps where you must fill the available slots. I’m not sure (even now after sleeping on this) what… Read more »
Three desirable gains might be to avoid/prevent:
1) Pay to win
2) Cheese
3) Lore-breaking
I have to admit to having never heard the term meta gaming before.
Happy Sunday people. Well that’s 2 new games on my family play list thanks to Ben. Interesting main subject… Meta is a variable thing in many games so I’m not sure it’s such a big thing to be honest. For me balance is very important but this doesn’t have to be within the models this could be victory conditions. I see nothing wrong with games with no meta or very little meta as long as you have fun. I know people I won’t play because with meta a force that breaks the balance.
On the topic of Fighting Fantasy have you picked up Steve Jacksons introductory RPG book called Fighting Fantasy with it’s add on Riddling Reaver? Run the same way as a solo book but each room has a GM description and then the players deal with it. Really simple progression for Fighting Fantasy Solo books back in the day. They later did Advanced Fighting Fantasy with a book called Dungeoneer. It’s a fantastic intro to RPG.
I remember Dungeoneer… not a lot … but I remember seeing it and thinking .. this could be cool
It was. :-]
Didn’t they do a magazine for FF and some large 54mm figures as well
For solo gaming the old Tunnels and Trolls by Flying Buffalo has lots of solo modules written for it a lot of which are available as downloads
http://www.flyingbuffalo.com/solo.htm
funnily enough the minute @warzan talked about it I thought of that, I should have 2 or 3 to throw up to him as well
Radio killed the video star?! ?
Interestingly X-Wing 2nd Edition introduces “quick build” cards. Essentially a ship with mandatory upgrades, balanced to a “threat level” for that build. I reckon FFG could procedurally generate those for some interesting tournaments.
Hmmm… I wonder if Miremarsh and Goblin Quest met and compared notes over a few drinks late one night?
Talk about impulse…. I stopped the fire Bens chat about goblin quest & Four against Darkness. Goblin quest now bought PDF) and the other coming on Tuesday. Thanks Ben, good call 🙂
Ok so on the topic of removing the Meta, if I have the understanding of this right to some extent has not Guild Ball gone down this route. The only thing you do is pick a team all the models are pretty determined and all the stats are already determined.
It’s only when you start getting into the game at a deeper level and don’t play a basic starter team you can start to choose which players play but Guild Ball kick-off starter is meta free play straight from the box.
You could then call all 2 player starter boxes “meta-free” -but you can get in to the game via other routes as well and by them self the masons and brewers are the start of a meta
Some people enjoy playing games out of their normal style of play. It prevents each game starting to feel the same especially if you play against the same group of people. I’m enjoying in Gangs of Rome at the moment randomly selecting fighters and equipment to fixed point cost. It makes me have to think about how I’m going to make the best use of what I’ve got. In terms of doing this I think you can’t think of it in terms of I’ll change this stat by one and this other stat by one to balance such that an… Read more »
Happy Sunday guys, Great job to all those who won themselves a Golden Button for their awesome work. Have to admit the meta term threw me for a second as I had associated it with the background and backstory and not with meta gaming. I think banishing the meta would not work for most people. In KeyForge cards played out on a table will have a set rule in association with that specific card. That won’t change. By seeing the image of the card you will understand what it is and with it being placed on the table, you can… Read more »
@noyjatat the meta in Mythos will probably lie in the fact that faction a is strong vs faction b but weak vs faction c and so forth.
I am afraid @warzan you cannot escape the meta, Keyforge will eventually, if t succeeds, acquire its own meta, even if all decks will be theoretically balanced and it is up to the player to get good with it, the skill sets required (and playing preferences) required to play the deck will differentiate the decks in meta categories and will generate both a secondary market for decks and meta for what decks with some variance players will gravitate towards.
I would agree that the likelihood is where that game is likely to progress to 🙂
However… if it doesn’t and this ‘meta-less’ approach is somthing they have commuted to it’s an interesting thing to watch 🙂
I definitely agree from a designer’s perspective, even an amateur one, it is a vastly interesting topic, especially since it is not a theoretical but a practical appliance.
Even if it fails to deliver a meta-less environment, I believe the information the wider gaming community especially at designer and developer level will vastly benefit from such experiments.
They indeed break new grounds, for all of us.
But that could be a different type of meta. It wouldn’t necessarily be I want to play with a deck with house 1, 2 and 3 because that’s the overall most efficient but that’s the way I like to play and is most efficient for me. Whereas what we have today in some games is you need army list x.
Gym done, now its time to watch beasts…
Happy Sunday folks I would love to remove meta from wargames, I hate facing armies that have been so finely tuned via the meta that they sap all the fun out of the game. I enjoy games where “rule of cool” is at the forefront, e.g. “yes this unit is crap in terms of efficiency, but it look awesome!” In reference to unit meta and going back to @warzan ‘s choice of example today, I think 8th ed 40k is a perfect example for this – The humble Tactical marine is now somewhat redundant when compared to his new shiny… Read more »
I don’t think that specific example is a good one, although I don’t disagree with your position itself.
In the current meta, I think that Primaris Marines are generally regarded as inefficient and uncompetitive, and competitive players are more likely to run tactical or scouts for troop choices
In my experience it has been the complete opposite, pure primaris armies trouncing my “classic” marine army, whereas play against another classic army and it’s a fight to the the death.
An Intercessor gives you an extra wound, 6″ longer range and -1 AP on their main weapon for only a few points more when compared to a classic Tac marine… and then there’s the Hellblasters….
Happy Sunday everyone! With regard to banishing the meta, personally I think it would be a terrible idea for the war games I care about and would push me away from them. I have no interest in competitive games or tournaments, however every model and unit i have purchased has been for a specific reason based on the story behind my army(s). The idea of having what the unit is and how i can use it pre determined would mean i could never collect the force I want or tell the story I want to tell.
I think the aim should be to change the meta in our games. How we put together our armies should be dictated more by: Flexibility – lists that feel like real forces, because they have the flexibility to deal with lots of different threats, rather than hard counters for whatever is hot at the moment in the meta. Fluff or historical accuracy- forces that look like something likely to find it’s way onto the battlefield in the setting, rather than spamming the most efficient unit. Fun – forces that are built to create a fun challenge for your opponent, not… Read more »
In regards to banishing the Meta (on the table top), I believe that there is a game that if it doesn’t banish the meta, it severely restricts it. (Tell @dignity to reach behind him and grab the MERCs 2.0 rule book). No I m not going to get into the MegaCon Games KS crap, I’m only discussing the MERCs game-play here in regards to the Meta, or the lack/limitation of it. MERCs in a very small sci-fi skirmish game that can play on a game area of 2ft x 2ft or 3ftx 3ft. Games I’ve seen and played can last… Read more »
Happy Sunday! I think the meta-gaming debate has to recognise that players of a wargame will fall somewhere on a 3 way spectrum when picking an army. 1) Motivated by lore / setting (including a lot of historical gaming) where the priority is to have a force that matches the setting even at the expense of competitivness. 2) Motivated by the army-building as a hobby in its own right. Banishing the ‘meta-game’ would by definition be working against what these players find fun. 3) Motivated by an elegant, balanced game as an end in itself. This would include those who… Read more »
Ok I think I understand better what meta means. I presume it’s another ‘in’ word like narrative and organised play but that’s another story
In the past games like DBA gave you fixed armies that you couldn’t deviate from and Basic Impetus and Armati give you fixed armies that you can maybe swap out one unit for two lesser ones. For WW2 we always play scenario games so you have what was there in real life which seems the most logical way to go
DBA?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bellis_Antiquitatis
Just play games that don’t have ‘meta’, like most historical games, though Im not really sure what it means…
Guess I don’t have it in wargaming then and thus no need to remove it?
I think from what the guys said if you choose your units that would be meta.
But how does that work with scenarios based on real world engagements? I guess as those are designed by the scenario and reality then no ‘meta’?
yes, meta only really comes in when you have a list build with no specifics in mind. Although if you want you can think of meta in real world armies. Republican Romans changing how they fought in response to Dacians, or the AFV and weapon race within the world wars. People develop something and the current army is ill equipped to deal with it, so changes occur
I suppose if you take into account that a lot of the historical games that are based on real world engagements are rarely correct due to the sheer numbers of units people would have to field, the meta in these cases is what you pick and choose to field. Squad level games such as spectre could be more easily adapted within a meta less game as you could individualize each miniature with a pre-determined skill set and stat line from the company.
not exactly, meta gaming is the overall selection, just choosing units wouldn’t be meta gaming. But only choosing the optimal units is meta gaming. Say playing a german list and ignoring the historical accuracy in favour of selecting only the best units for your points. When everyone does this within a game the overall “meta” of the game changes, so only using flying units in fantasy game means infantry are at a disadvantage, you either compete with more fliers or gun lines. By the end of year of play seeing cav and infantry blocks is a rarity. These shifts seem… Read more »
@avernos Warren clarified for Justin that what they meant by meta for the purposes of this video was “The meta of a game is what happens before you play a game”, following that they talked about force selection, army selection, the ability to change stat and equipment within the unit. So I agree yes the overall but also the small stuff as well, hence we got the tactical squad example. I will be honest though buddy I struggled to fully understand what was being discussed today as the milling gloves came out early on so I probably don’t have a… Read more »
No problemo @noyjatat and @avernos it kinda tallies with what I thought it means… kinda like optimal list choosing? Power gaming so to speak and that then changing how a game is played.
I can safely say it doesn’t happen in our historical games as even our points based pick up games don’t suffer from this due to the lists restrictions forcing you down a historical path. Also a lot to do with the players too I suspect.
that’s how I how view it, it’s been a long time since I worried about optimal builds when I went to tournaments and I suspect I wasn’t much fun to play with then as the objective was to ruin someone elses day.
You might be the only person here who remembers or knows of this @avernos but at one of Joe’s game days at central hall in Belfast in a very early edition of WFB on the competitors entire army was a high elf champion on a dragon.
I remember that, I know that there was another player who had something undead and filthy, his opponent spent an age putting his army out and then the (f)undead player placed one mini. His opponent looked at it and started putting everything away.
Those games days were fun
By this argument and definition, Wellington choosing his position before the Battle of Waterloo began was ‘meta’ in the real world – exploiting the circumstances to his benefit. 😉
Yep right up until he rolled for first turn 😀