Chapterhouse vs GW: The Human Story
February 7, 2011 by beerogre
So... the can of worms is officially open... Chapterhouse Studios have found legal representation, in order to take on GW in court (or out of it... which ever transpires first) and finally settle this whole affair.
This could be the beginning of the beginning, or the beginning of the end for so-called "GW aftermarket parts"... or it may all splutter out like a damp... er... squig! (poor humour I know).
But, let's put all that aside and look at the human story... you know... the bit thats just too easy to forget, when your dealing with that whole corporate hatred thing.
... and what about the great minds we're forgetting?
As each day goes by, Games Workshop are becoming more the faceless corporation, the pantomine villain. This is in part, because they ARE acting more like a corporation... professional... business-like and profit driven. But lets take a moment to remind ourselves of the induviduals who helped define (or redefine) an entire industry, in this case Jes Goodwin.
Jes is a man who has basically dedicated his life to the development of the artistic direction of 40K. Dedicating your life to something in the creative industries, is an almost impossible task and Jes is one of the few (like Jervis Johnson, Rick Priestly, Alan and Michael Perry et al) who have poured an entire lifetime into creating the fictional world that we fans enjoy so much.. and that many take a little too seriously at times.
GW is not FORD or BP, where production is spread among enormous teams of 9-5, talented empolyees. The beating heart of projects in GW is undertaken by one or two individuals, before moving into the wider production process.
You see... in the creative industries, with every design you create and every sculpt you produce, you're putting a little bit of yourself into it and you take it to heart, because in this kind of business... it's never really "just business"...
Now, I'm sure Jes could have clubbed me over the head with a Storm Raven, after I labeled it a "Storm-Toaster"... because yes... even gentle banter can wound the ego (and I use the word ego here in the most respectful way, as without it we would have no designers), but criticism is part-and-parcel of the industry and most likely, I'll lavish the next model with praise.
But what about being inspired by... what about copying... what about theft?
Here's what I mean. You spend your life creating something, only to see others coming along and at best making money of your hard work, but at worst abusing it with bad design and miserable quality.
How does it feel, I wonder, when you have your future ideas lifted and executed, before you ever get the chance to tackle them yourself?
I don't believe you can dedicate a life to something and not feel a real pang of hurt, when you see your concept, your design, your creation... hell your baby... lifted and profited on by others!
Of course, these people may be doing what they do out of their love of the concept, but when they start to profit from it (or at least try too) it's always going to leave a bitter taste.
You can make bundles of cash from your designs and it doesn't matter one iota, because I'm pretty certain that individuals like Jes, don't do what they do for the money, because when you're that creative, you have to deeply love something to dedicate an entire life to it.
So what about aftermarket parts?
Well, I wonder could we see some kind of official endorsement for some of the talented companies who could produce them. I mean a situtation, where GW get a licence fee and Jes (and the team) can get the proper recognition... or even give an input into the designs.
These talented individuals won't be around forever, but I hope their creations are. At some point (and it's already been happening in GW for a long time) others will pick the concepts up and run with them. Perhaps this could happen in other very talented and officially endorsed studios and we end up with an even bigger and fuller 40k universe.
However, I'm certain that the legacy of Jes and the other pioneers of the industry... those who made it all happen... will continue to inspire generations to come... ad who knows... maybe even into the 41st millennium.
BoW Warren
“I’m sure Jes could have clubbed me over the head with a Storm Raven, after I labeled it a “Storm-Toaster”” Yeah he probably calls it a Thunder Budgie too. The problem I have with GW shutting this sort of thing down is most of the things these companies do are stuff GW and even Forge World don’t. If Forge World was run properly and spent more of their time filling in the gaps in the main Codex based army lists -instead of 10 million slight variants of things that have plastic kits and stuff that can only be used in… Read more »
It’s a really interesting argument but sadly I don’t think you can separate the effort that Jes puts into his creations to where they become another product put forward by a faceless corporation. Even so do we assume he is hurt by someone else adding to something he has made. I can’t pretend to know what he really feels but, I’d feel more impact from the name Storm-Turkey than from someone making a set of new heads to go on a body I had sculpted. If I didn’t do it for the cash then I’ve done it for the creativity… Read more »
It seems to me that if Chapterhouse had simply not used the GW names, then would there be a case to answer? Alien parts, sci tank door. We all know what they are for. Does seem a little like GW had to say no to using the same IP names/concepts. Love them or hate them GW do spend a lot of time and money on creating the worlds we play in. That may makes the models more expensive, but I love being able to read in more detail about my army for painting schemes, making rare units or terrain. I’m… Read more »
Two rhetorical questions:
1) Is it right to make stuff and profit from a system you didn’t create, obvioulsy the entire industry has grey areas – so where do you draw the line?
2) If you have the talent to sculpt some amazing stuff why not step up and create you own system?
No easy answers, but the questions are valid 🙂
Damed rhetorical questions. We need to reply……..
Well even though rhetorical means you’re not supposed to answer: 1) On the Warm and fuzzy morality side, no its probably not, cold hard legality flip-side, we don’t get a vote but I suspect the ruling will be a “yes, but only if…” that comes down on the side of GW. 2) When you actually look at some of the stuff chapter house do its not really as clean as GW stuff, it works as parts and you don’t notice the cartoonish feel some of the bits have because they’re hidden by the pseudo-realistic sculpts of the models you put… Read more »
Good points Warren. 1) no – as a designer I don’t like copying others work, however in the grey area of growing the hobby, you would think that it would make more sense for GW to approach chapterhouse to make it work for both of them. License deal?? 2) hanging off GW coat tails would appear to be the easy option. Especially when it comes to reproducing rhino doors, just like forgeworld, NOT good. But I also like the idea of having more options to customise my models. If someone could make parts that took the basic gw stuff and… Read more »
1) Yes, I believe so. Nobody asks about the ethics of after market parts for automobiles, nor even models of automobiles.
2) Because they too, love the universe Jes created. They really aren’t far off from converters that went professional.
Some of the best converters in the hobby have the skill and imagination to make their own models but chose to make space marines, tau, tyranids, etc. and nobody questions them, just because they chose not to make resin casts of their additions for others to use?
There’s a difference between me sculpting an Ork Warboss that towers over Gazguhl without armour on cos I think Warbosses should be bigger than they are or plating over skeleton arms to make bionics for a master of the forge to get a decent pose to hold his C-beamer, and someone who does it to cast many duplicates and sells them for profit, both morally and legally.
When I saw the link from Facebook, I thought I was going to read about big bad GW stomping on the little guy. I was heartened to read the opposite. I don’t think licensing would work unless we were willing to pay even more for out plastic aliens. It’s no small thing to walk the licensing tightrope of your own core business in terms of quality control over third parties. And the knee jerk reactions regarding this subject on both sides would be laughable if it wasn’t coming from what used to be a close knit community. Obviously, Chapterhouse wouldn’t… Read more »
I’m thinking something along the lines of the old d20 license would work for GW. for those not familiar, from the Wikipedia entry: “…many third party publishers produce products designed to be compatible with that game (Dungeons & Dragons) and its cousin, d20 Modern. Wizards of the Coast provides a separate license allowing publishers to use some of its trademarked terms and a distinctive logo to help consumers identify these products. This is known as the d20 System Trademark License. The d20 System Trademark License (D20STL) requires publishers to exclude character creation and advancement rules, apply certain notices and adhere… Read more »
I’m sure the GW people, artists and all, care about what they do… Even the creator of Hello Kitty cares about that little turd she drew once… Not to draw a comparison, here, but even as they do care, they still design the products to be sold, and sometimes nothing more. And they sell it well. Granted, many a GW miniature is artfully done, but there’s a hefty majority (so much, so VERY much…) of them that are (pardon my bluntness) crappily made, and so many that are only simple variations on an easily reproduced design… Flashing, sprue marks, loss… Read more »
Thing is with GW, they seem indomitable, with all the shops and what not. However not so long ago the BBC reported profit loss and many a heart sank at the slightest hint GW might be in trouble. Just goes to show they aren’t untouchable, they can fold just like any other company. I remember the days when white dwarf was full of characters , rick priestly, that crazy guy who used to pull his best Ork face in every photo (Andy) and it all had some charm. Now it all seems very processed and we get Mat Ward, who… Read more »
I’ve had a problem with Jes as a creator ever since he decided to axe the Squats (and brought in Dark Eldar, ecchh). It’s one of the biggest reasons why I left the game of 40k (well that and and 15 million Space Marine armies). Fantasy is all I do play from GW, how long will it be before they start going after the companies that make beasts that aren’t represented in the current catalogue?
Aftermarket is just that – AFTER-market. Carol Shelby put his heart and soul into making the Shelby Cobra – Every aftermarket shop in the industry makes a spare part for it – not a penny of their profits go back to Ford or Carol. Go to any AutoZone in the country and you’ll find a catalog of aftermarket oil filters to fit your car – Do you think GM/Ford/Chrysler makes a dime off of them? No, they make money selling the whole car, their overpriced aftermarket parts are found in their captive shops. The buyer has the choice to go… Read more »
You’re comparing the auto industry to copyright infringement. It’s apples and oranges. Regardless of how much heart and soul went into the making of Shelby’s cars, he did not own the idea of the car, nor the internal combustion engine, the windshield wiper, or the tire. Games Workshop makes miniatures to support their game, that they own all rights to. It’s a closed system. Something more analogous would be toys and merchandise for the Star Wars franchise. You cannot, for instance, buy a cheaper x-wing fighter pilot for your x-wing fighter. Not a legal one, at any rate. Lucas holds… Read more »
What, you think GW owns orks, space soldiers, elves or demons ?
When prices on models go up and the profits of GW go down there is nothing I like more than a satisfying moan and a grumble. However, in this instance I have to side with GW. Charterhouse are next to stupid making space marine models etc for their own profit and then using GW established names to label and market them. I love the creativity and imagination at GW; the designer, artists, sculptures and writers are superb. If anything I argue they need to do something brand new to the hobby to keep it fresh. Anyway, for a rival company… Read more »
Also it is worth mentioning the issue of customer loyalty. Would Charterhouse be as successful if GW customers weren’t so encouraged as to look elsewhere for models? The reputation of GW as the evil corporation, together with prices, only fuels this kind of thing.
The simple fact is Chapterhouse wouldn’t exist is GW still had its bits service, or if Forge World wasn’t such a Charlie-Foxtrot with the pointless re-iteration and do-overs and repeats and rehashes and same dame new dress models. Forge World occasionally makes a new vehicle or unit, then has to chase after itself with rules to use it in game, then more often than not these rules get grouped together in an imperial armour book that cost as much if not more than the model. Its not just Forge World’s fault there though GW, when it was writing the Dark… Read more »
Possible scenario – GW hit yet another company with a legal threat, this time the target doesn’t back down and finds legal representation to fight the threat – before the case hits the courts GW work out that Chapter house is selling something they don’t make and therefore they have little to from a court case while the costs would be considerable especially if they lose and have to pay Chapter House’e costs as well – result is a meeting outside the court where a “licence deal” is made – GW’s IP is protected, Chapter House is now licenced to… Read more »
Last yer GW lost sales but increased profits. As a shareholder, that’s good, but, long term, bad. If sales are dropping fewer people are buying. That means, long term fewer people are growing into the hobby. OK, Chapterhouse are riding on the coat tales of a successful story but then have GW paid Michael Moorcock for Elric with chaos and law, Haldeman, Lovecraft, Tolkien? OK, the slant is oftimes different and a massive amount of work has gone into creating a unique universe but there is still a lot of derivative work in there. Should they protect that IP? Yes,… Read more »
GW has every right to protect its interests and copyright. But imho their attitude shows a lack of good judgement. As has been said elsewhere by others, to buy some shoulder pads from a company like CH means that there will have been some GW marines sold to put them on. Coming from a modelmaking hobby I find the way aftermarket companies are treated in the gaming hobby industry rather appalling. I realise the analogy has some limitations, but one never hears of Airfix or Hasegawa trying to prevent some cottage industry from stating on the item that it is… Read more »
Here’s some questions for ya!
I’ve written some stuff… games I mean… some of which are held in the BoW archives awating a premier.
You guys (sorta) know me. Would it be OK if we here at BoW produced some stuff, on a small scale, but because we’re BoW (and have a big profile) others decide to produce similar stuff that can be used with our games.
Would that be OK?
Would it be OK for them to make money on it without crediting us?
Would it be OK if they were small scale too?
Is it a matter of scale?
BoW Andy
My initial response would be yes as long as the extenders credited you as the source of the original work.
If I had a company manking kinis out of my writing characters then I’d hope they would credit me with the original ideas, hopefully driving sales toward the original work. If someone were to start making an absolute fortune out of it I’d expect a part of that to come to me – it was my idea, after all.
Surely that’s the intent – to grow the base diversify the market and flipping well sell things?
Well said Warren! Apologies for any ramblings, I have a shitty cold and my brain feels as though it’s in the vice like grip of a giant’s fist! As an illustrator (part-time or a whenever-the-hell-I-get-hired-illustrator!), I have been in a similar situation to Chapter House, where in my case, I was asked to create character images that were based on films, TV or cartoons. I would have to create them so as they were recognisable as the original but were obviously a spoof of them, and not an exact copy. It wasn’t something that I particularly enjoyed, since I like… Read more »
I have to say that honestly I have not followed this with much interest as it is GW policy to quash the lil guy at every turn…or has everyone forgotten what happened to Armorcast? GW has been moving towards a corporation for some time and IMHO has forgotten all about the hobby…I have seen the games change for almost 30 years and have seen the company change along with them…they have forgotten their loyal followers in favor of profits and in doing so have some where decided that creativity is solely exclusive to them when it comes to the realm… Read more »
I hope chapterhouse wins.
I can’t see that happening, but more importantly I don’t actually think it would be a good thing for us for CH to win. As much as GW is the corporate big bad, grown too big too fast and made poor choices for us, do we really want then to look at 40k as an unenforceable copyright and start fresh?
To be fair to GW they have been round a long time 🙂
I don’t see anything fair about GW anymore to be fair about. I despise them. And sure start fresh, 40k is getting old and not really going anywhere.
i agree it will be a great day if chapterhouse win gw dont care for the hobby just the money i have been in the hobby for about 12 years and gw has gone down hill so much.
Agreed, the GW now is not the GW of my childhood back in the 90’s, has fallen very very far. Like Old Republic to Empire fall.
i really like what Warren said here. And i can sympathise from the designers point of view whole heartedly. Chapterhouse has never really been a producer of high end quality work, and has been dipping closer and closer to GW IP for a while now. Now, MaxMini and Scibor are two out-of-GW companies that do it right, they keep their noses clean by steering clear of directly copying GW products and run with their own naming conventions. Plus having thier own style of design and production helps them stay out of GW’s way. Basically you will know a Scibor product… Read more »
Well said John. If GW actually put forth an effort to provide a healthy after market for their products, this wouldn’t be an issue. Forge World is nice, if a bit pricey, but when was the last bits pack that GW released? Crimson Fist stuff, if memory serves well?
I think, at this stage, GW is capable of providing more products to their customers, but they have such a monopoly on their corner of the market, they have no competition to keep them on their toes and diligent.
I always get a kick of nostalgia when I read through my old White Dwarfs, some dating back to the late 1980’s. Games Workshop used to promote the hobby across the board, but it seems that over the years they’ve turned more towards the business side of the industry than the hobby side. If Games Workshop actively promoted their product, supplied affordable bits, released product more often than once every 4-6 weeks, and encouraged the hobby as a whole, instead of creating a monopoly on the market and then sitting back and riding it out, I think you’d see less… Read more »
I have no idea how this will turn out or what the specifics are. I do think chapterhouse foolishly walked a very thin line and that paulson walked a wider one (look out MR DANDY) Having said that I feel like GWs position concerining ip is akin to James Cameron taking GW to court over Tyranids.
Games Workshop is a lot like Daphne at the moment. It’s put on a lot of weight and it’s incredibly unattractive but Niles can’t see this because all he looks at her and sees the trim women that he fell in love with. It’ll take his neurotic brother (here represented by other gaming companies) to make hi see what his bride’s become and make him take affirmative action! What I’m trying to imply is that Games Workshop is not the same company I bonded with many moons ago, it’s done some pretty ugly things in order to survive but that’s… Read more »
AND YET they won’t go affter blizzard.
say what you will but gw is trying to get a monoply IF they where pissed about “product infringment” why are they not taking on blizzard for starcraf? beacuse blizz will pound there face in to the ground through court. there picking smart battles.
that seems more of what jes would be pissed about his law being plagorized and yet if you don’t take it as faltoury you are a prick in this day and age.
god forbid gw trys to take out the other companys by making better kits at lower prices.
being stagnant doesn’t make you the best choice. “Here’s what I mean. You spend your life creating something, only to see others coming along and at best making money of your hard work, but at worst abusing it with bad design and miserable quality.” Your quote Warren. First, if it is of poor design, it should be our choice to apply poor parts or high price parts onto our models. If I want to buy the cheap crap to put on my car (going with the Shelby post line above) then my car will look cheap and that is my… Read more »
I don’t think GW is particularly stagnant, they just don’t move the way we want them too. You’d have a hard time finding multi-part plastic kits with a better level of detail than GW get out of new kits, a lot of companies come close and a fair bit cheaper but nothing beats it, even some resin stuff isn’t quite there, chapter house being the ur-example(as in Uuur that head sculpt is horrible and the combi bolter looks like a shoebox ). If you want to look at release schedules the Super Perrio Brothers do a new plastic historical kit… Read more »
I don’t think it has anything to do with the artisitic side of GW – I thinks it’s exactly the non-creative, business people who are frightened by the drop in performance of the company and think the only way to drive to sales is an almost homicidal reaction to anything that directs attention away from the companys own products. If Chapter House were making box sets of tactical marines that looked almost identical to GW’s stuff and marketing them as a 40k product then fair enough but if it was legal to make the products and describe them as “sci-fi… Read more »