VLOG: Anatomy Of A Kickstarter With Hawk Wargames’ Dave
December 9, 2016 by warzan
We're talking with Dave from Hawk Wargames about the way in which a Kickstarter project comes together and the trials and tribulations of running a fundraiser.
As well as looking at the actual running of it we'll also be discussing what it's like after the fact too when companies look towards delivering on their projects.
Follow along with the discussion and let us know your thoughts on the comments.
Get commenting below!
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well I’m happy for hawk that the game came to live and that the kickstarter is such a success, but I would be a liar if I wouldn’t say I’m very very upset that the BoW bootcamp starts and I don’t even have my pledge yet nor do I have any word when it might be shipped to me. Christmas is coming and I have better things to do, the family is about to arrive and I need to prepare a lot so I don’t have time anyway. Glad our pledges made all this possible! I wish everyone a ton… Read more »
Did you watch the video?
honestly, not yet, but I’m watching it now. I have to apologise my first comment is more sarcastic than it was meant to be. For me its amazing what Hawk accomplished with DZC, and Dave’s passion and attention for detail are impressive so its great to see the whole kickstarter was such a success for them.
But the gamer in me is twitching what is not really important in the end, I don’t have much time right now anyway and it will be in my hands sooner or later. So no hard feelings here. 😉
Fair play to Dave for talking about the KS. I think releasing to retail before pledges were out was the right decision, the game needs retail to thrive. It was a brave decision as Hawk knew that this would cause a lot of grief but they have to look to the future. I feel for the backers who haven’t got their pledges yet but it’s the nature of the KS beast. I’m yet to back one that hit its target and been on a couple that are 18 months overdue. Hawk will certainly have learned some valuable lessons and I… Read more »
When Reaper did their first Bones Kickstarter, they had similar space issues. They ended up renting storage trailers and extra warehouse space just to be able to receive the shipments from the factory. Logistics were just a nightmare.
You’d think someone would have learned from that… no?
Good video. I learned a lot about the things I had missed in my assessments
Jesus Christ Hawk Dave. You seem pretty shattered mate. Hardly surprising. I’m pretty damned glad I backed this. Looks like a solid game. My pledge is gonna be used to corrupt my club to Dropfleet! Frankly, you guys did a hell of a job with this Kickstarter and being late by a month or two or three ain’t huge. I know of KSs that are years out with friends expecting nothing from their money. I ain’t there. I’m super happy with what I got (missing a Leonidas but I already emailed about that) and he’ll, I actually wish I’d spent… Read more »
Thanking backers for bringing the game to life, there is the problem. As a backer i helped fund the game and to date i have nothing not a single bloody dice to show for it. Hope all goes well for the bootcamp and hopefully maybe even one day i can enjoy dropfleet as well.
I just got all my stuff so maybe it’s easier for me to say this, but I have supported far too many Kickstarters. Looking back through the stats, 4-6 months late is pretty much the norm. Some have been as much as 12-18 months late and I have even had two that have folded and absconded with my pledge. Only the smaller product campaigns managed to ship roughly on time. So to me Hawk has done an admirable, if not even a good, job on their first Kickstarter. The product they produced is fantastic and it was shipped well. More… Read more »
Hell, my order of Double Six Dice ( which is just 12 sided dice with 1-6 pips printed twice on the dice) was over a year late.
I was never concerned about the delays until retailers started receiving and selling out of stock not once but twice and here I just recieved my shipping notificaturn a few days ago.
Thank you for putting this out. It answers several questions. I just wish you had put this info out earlier. It might have saved a lot of the anger issues form happening. Communication, or lack there of, has been many peoples main point of anger. Going to retail was a smart business decision. I don’t think anyone can logically argue that. People calling for the delay of the boot camp, which I have been accused of but have never said, I don’t think realize how much work you guys really put into and what kind of good it will do… Read more »
Interested to get some of the nuts and bolts behind why KS’ take so long to fulfill. If I could wave a magic wand and change one thing about KS, it would be the expectation that backers get the product first. Not just amongst backers, but amongst the project creators as well. Whilst a situation like AvP has experienced is obviously not desirable, and you don’t want long delays between retail and fulfilment, there are benefits to making sure retail receive the product when its ready. It benefits the company, obviously, who can start generating revenue, but that in turn… Read more »
thanks for this video Dave, you’ve done a great job through all this.
Thx for the info….
im a lt pledge and havent recieved anything yet. I have emaild.
Im gonna sit back and relax an njoy the vlog of the bootkamp:)
I kind of suspected they were using their ‘standard’ webshop method of shipping for a lot of the pledges. That part definitely felt like something that didn’t scale for the amount of stuff that had to be shipped within a relatively short amount of time.
I definitely appreciate the info.
“We didn’t know how to calculate pallet space for 180 pallets”
“We didn’t know how to pre-print international labels”
“Retailer fulfillment was done magically with no time and no effort”
“We will avoid mentioning how crappy we packed everything and no boxes”
“Non backers at retail stores are more important than backers. They are our lifeblood, not you loyal backers””
Anything else?
Yep you got the gist of it. My jaw dropped when they got to the retail before KS part…
Hi Dave,
What has kept you guys going? Except for will power and a clear goal?
Cheers,
Michel
I think I can answer that 🙂
These guys just have deep love of the world and games they have created around it.
They are not big corporate players, but rather guys who love making toy soldiers 🙂 (or amazing hulking battleships of doom!) 😉
You keep pushing when you love something 🙂
That is all well and good but fact is I am still waiting for stuff that had been out for over a month.
Compared to a lot of KSs, this is nothing. You WILL get your stufff. I have friends who’ve backed a Kickstarters and have NOTHING to show for it!
Delays were not the problem of this KS mate. The problem was the product hit retail long before the majority of backers had it, and it’s still not done. Also we were lied to and/or kept in the dark on the real status of things for several months.
What retail ?
Haven’t seen anything Dropfleet related in any shops I’ve been to.
Heck, if it hadn’t been for this Kickstarter I wouldn’t know where to order this stuff, except from Hawk themselves …
Wayland have got plenty in stock so it seems like it is at retail. Poor communication is a KS cardinal sin, but as should be clear from comment on this thread I think hitting retail before all pledges are fulfilled is not a bad thing.
Contrary to other comments, it’s frustrating as hell to me that I still haven’t gotten a thing yet. It’s not the time, I backed the first run of Kingdom Death: Monsters, so I’m well aware and familiar with hiccups in production of games. What would have made me happy would have been a simple, “hey, we’ve had some snags, but would you prefer if we shipped the core game and got the add-ons and stretch goals out when we can?” Because right now I can’t help but feel that if I would have played it safe, not risked it on… Read more »
From the video the delay originally happened because of all the extra work that went into the rule book – the main component of the starter set.
That held the process up to the point it clashed with retail release.
All the additional delay is down to the very tedious process of managing international shipping.
Packing it seems was not much of an issue, so holding back addons etc would have made no difference.
That is my understanding of the conversation. 🙂
So there’s really no reason that they couldn’t have sent a starter to backers if they wanted when they shipped retail orders. 😉
It still stings a bit to get “thanks for making this happen, but we need to make money before we send off your product that you already gave us money for.” Especially when most backers at the same level as you do have product.
Yes the “All the additional delay is down to the very tedious process of managing international shipping.” reason (which has been the main source of delay – would very much have been in play.
Plus you could well bankrupt a small business making them pay shipping (which has increased by 30% since June) multiple times.
Seriously if there had been a way that the guys could have solved this fast that they could have thought of or done at the time, I have no doubt they would have. 🙂
As I mentioned though, the fact that I’m sitting here seeing people post pictures of painted little ships they bought at the local shop, while I wait, is a slap in the face. I don’t care if it comes across as selfish (and I admit it is a little,) it still reeks of kicking the original supporters to the curb in the name of profits. Set backs are set backs, but the way it’s been handled has been mediocre at best. Hell, at this point at least answer my email if you want to seem like you care. Considering my… Read more »
It’s not as much in the name of profit – you are misunderstanding that profit is along way off, the decision was made to try and give the game (that you helped create) it’s best chance at success on the long term. (Which I would imagine you would want to see)
And again, it didn’t matter what was in your pledge, the delay had nothing to do with the contents, but rather issues with the process unfortunately 🙁
I do hope it has some long term staying power, it’ll make it easier to sell the stuff if I ever get it.
I understand that it wasn’t done “for the profits,” but it sure feels that way when you don’t get replies to emails, and everyone else has their toys and you dont. Again, the simple fact that I could have played it safe, not risked a thing, and been playing this game a month ago sucks.
It does suck 🙁 for you (and other backers) and for hawk too. Unfortunately it’s not uncommon on kickstarter… but those seem to be the risks in being one of the special few who help fund the creation of new games… Anyway, a word of thanks from me personally to you and the others, I’m quite enamoured with what you all have created and hope it has a long future of story and game updates to see what happens in the world. And I really hope when you do finally get your stuff that perhaps you might consider diving into… Read more »
I really would love to “dive right in” to a spaceship mini game, but I’m in it for the long haul, and with the broken promises and unanswered emails, I can’t in good confidence expect the support for the game.
I’m not in your shoes @fred83 as I have recently received my pledge but I think you’d be doing yourself a favour if you separated a couple of things. The first is the nature of Kickstarters. You really shouldn’t back one and expect everything to go as planned. You _ought_ to be able to expect good communications, but experience tells us that you can’t even expect this from a large number of them. If you’re not prepared for delays, poor communications and for product hitting shelves before you’ve got it then you shouldn’t back. Perhaps you’ve not participated in others… Read more »
This wasn’t my first rodeo by a long shot. For example, I backed Kingdom Death: Monsters back in 2013. If you want an example of a game that ended up being backed way more than expected, and had every imaginable hiccup come up in production (they shafted by one plastics company, and the second messed the molds up so bad they had to rebuild them from scratch, plus print issues with the rulebook, and a dock worker strike holding up the containers for months… it goes on.) I didn’t receive my copy of the game until earlier this year. However,… Read more »
“All the additional delay is down to the very tedious process of managing international shipping.” Not sure I buy that excuse. Nov 15th, they claim to be nearly done, “entering the final days”. Nov 26th, they have 310 pledges left (160 commodore + 150 late/other) Dec 6th, they have 285 pledges left to ship. Dec 9th, they have “140 + late backers”, where there are between 1 and 145 late backers. Between Nov 26th and Dec 6th, that’s 25 pledges shipped in 7 business days. 3.5 pledges/day. So tedious it takes 2+ hours/day per package? People aren’t so angry about… Read more »
Exactly. I backed this in the first 48 hours, at a very modest “Commander” level (ie, just the starter set that is already in shops,) and now they’re “getting ready to ship late backer” packages. :-/
C’mon man. It’s fairly obvious this is hard work!
Hawk could have managed expectations much earlier – Mythic Games/Monolith are the best example I can think of in that regard. Constant, open communication is so much better even when you have to say NO to something – as long as you make the reasons clear. It might have reduced the email tide to a trickle.
Dave – I can proofread for you. I’ll see your 50,000 words of narrative and raise you 40-fold and I have managed that in about 4 years in my spare time 🙂
Remember Mythic Games have the benefit of hindsight on their side with a hard-fought kickstarter already under their belt. 🙂
One could argue that Hawk & co could have learned from the post mortems posted by Mantic and others though.
Then again … sometimes the only way to really learn your lessons is to fall and trip yourself.
Because no matter how many times someone tells you that you the stove is hot you won’t grok that until you’ve been burned yourself.
Unless you’ve been through it before or hire a consultant who can guide you through it, I don’t think there’s any preparing you for it. On the Mythic Battles KS the question was often asked as to why it was going to take one year to fulfill if so much work had already been done, and the answer is because it takes a lot longer than you’d think unless you’d been through it already like Monolith has. And until you go through it you can’t identify where the bottlenecks in your business are. One of the Conan bottlenecks was 3D… Read more »
I can say though, this is the first time Hawk have dealt with this.
This level of interest.
This level of engagement! And FAR beyond their expectations!
Thank you Dave for taking time out to talk about this. I am looking forward to receiving my pledge, this video has put some of my concerns to ease
Very interesting video. Top marks for addressing the KS problems at the top of the boot camp.
I am a backer still waiting on my pledge; and in New Zealand. Has Dave got any photos of the warehouse at the beginning of the packing process. Have a great weekend all .
Thanks for the clarification Dave. It confirmed some of my suspicions, and added more to my understanding of the complications that Hawk faced.
Will be watching the Boot Camp with interest.
As an aside – my pledge arrived over a week ago, but have not had time to unpack & check it – though it seems to be in good shape.
Thanks Dave and Warren for this video. I am a Commodore pledger from Australia do I don’t have my pledge yet. While it is frustrating I go into every KS assuming this may happen. Most importantly I have played the game with one of my mates who was in a smaller pledge … and I bloody loved it. It is a beautiful book, a sweet set of rule mechanics and the miniatures are everything I could have hoped for from Hawk. I am glad you are putting it out to retail and going ahead with the boot camp as it… Read more »
We’d love to have you over – actually there are a number of amazing members from down there we want to meet, we should get you all on a long cruise over to us 😉 just don’t eat the anzac bikkies on the way over 😉
You could always fly down here warzan… no, wait, take a cruise. The 14 odd hour flight will make you twitch. I agree pturner, I now assume that will happen with every KS I back. Especially when we live in Australia, it takes so long for pretty much every product to get to us – there are so many steps to get product from A to B, every single step which can get delayed (including the simple possibility of a traffic jam meaning a truck arrives so that it misses the send out time for a transport company). God forbid… Read more »
Mate I will bring you a bucket of ANZAC biscuits if I ever make a boot camp! Of course with your flying issues I asssume an Aussie BOW road trip is out of the question? Imagine a whole country full of ANZAC biscuits….
While I understand the frustration of the people who’ve yet to receive their pledges, and I’d likely feel angrier if my stuff hadn’t shown up, I think a lot of people view Kickstarter as pre-ordering with bonuses, when it’s really small-scale venture capitalism. You’re not guaranteed a return on your investment, and you’re not guaranteed your stuff arrive before a commercial product ships. That’s harsh, but it’s the truth of the matter. The perception of kickstarter, especially in the gaming community is at odds with the reality, and there’s a huge dose of caveat emptor that should be front and… Read more »
Venture capatalism implies a return on investment.
Not in the slightest. Venture Capitalism is literally gambling that the product you back will be a success. It’s why in Ireland at least, ads for any investment company or product is legally required to state that the value of your investment may go down as well as up.
And the campaign was “successful,” yet here I am…
The campaign was the fundraising part of venture capitalism, not the delivery part. And you are going to get your return.
Venture Capitalists with a 1 in 10 success ratio are considered to be very successful. They throw lots of money into “dry holes” looking for eventual statistical success that might help them make a profit.
I’m sitting here in southern Maine waiting for my Commodore level pledge and I’m watching all of the Boot Camp fun enviously. But it’s the usual Boot Camp envy because I don’t have any money and I have to study for final exams.
That may be true, but the way the vast majority of kickstarters are presented is also at odds with that angle. There’s always this push to buy into a higher tier for the ‘extra stuff’ you get. There’s tons of add-ons to ‘buy’ especially in the gaming kickstarters. In essence it is a store by all definitions, except the legal one. It’s a technicality that annoys me to be honest, because as much as I understand the reality it does not match the impressions I get. If Kickstarter was to be honest about the intent then it wouldn’t have allowed… Read more »
There is a fundamental difference, and that is the product wouldn’t exist or would not exist in the same form without the funding raised on KS. A store is selling you product which exists. It is, like I say, a fundamental difference. and is exactly what KS exists for.
I know my boss has chatted the Hawk. Wish I’d been there! One of my personal goals is to work in one of the universes I hold so dear!
Thanks for the insight. Still, I am torn between exitement and disappointment. I hope you learned the lesson that with KS communication is key. I would be much more forgiving, if I had known stuff.
But right now, I am where I am, so let’s see how I feel once the big shiny parcel arrives.
Best of luck for the Boot Camp. I wish I could have come.
From my profesional perspective I can say that every single small buisnes make the same mistake when their start growing – lack of logistics manager / consultant / advisor and their getting stuck under the pile of logistics issues. Fortunately in most such situations such companies makes this mistake once. This is not self advertising at all but if Hawk might have something intersting to offer I might be interested in lstening. 😀 Have a nice bootcamp.