Weekender XLBS: Mennes’ Amazing Khador & Wargame Masters?

Beige/taupe/camel… Yellow Ochre – whatever – never looked so good!

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Happy Sunday!

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I don’t now what codec you’re using for these backstage videos, but they won’t even consider playing on my Android tablet and even on my laptop I keep hitting ‘the buffers’ at various points (14:42 the first).

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I’m loving Warren’s euphamisms flying over Justin’s head and hitting Ben in the funnybone 😉

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But is Ben the omnipresent GM – or a floating Beholder?

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brennon

I like to think I’m a bit of both 😉

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Ben’s right about my comment. It was the Strategies and Schemes mechanism in Malifaux forefront in my mind, although other games have similar. For thosewho don’t know this game: – a single Strategy is flipped (cards not dice remember) which is open and shared by both sides. These vary from – a pool of 5 schemes (1 option always included) are then generated from which each player secretly selects two. Again a wide variety to pool and select from. Some involve territorial activity (usually involving dropping Scheme tokens) while others include: > assassinating the leader or certain types of models,… Read more »

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To defend Justin (gasp) about augmented reality, maybe he was referring to an AI driven GM which has various scenario routings through a game. For example, “The first to discover three clues from those on the table is told of a richer reward at another point that they have to hold until the end of the game. The opponent doesn’t have to know this yet (Fog of war) so also has to continue uncovering clues – or is set a different objective.”

If you haven’t played Mansions of Madness yet – do. Then imagine that on the tabletop.

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I’ll be your “Big In The Centre Host” for a threesome… I’ll even bring the batteries!

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basilard99

@warzan: To continue the discussion around the zombie apocalypse games. One you also may want to check out is Outbreak: Undead from Hunters Books. re: Playing zombie apocalypse games as yourself and dealing with your loved ones. To be honest, that’s one of the great strengths of RPGs – to put yourself into situations and explore them from a “safe” place. For example, a lot of people like to play Vampire as the “I’m a badass/suave/powerful vampire”. And that’s fine. But you can also play it with the emphasis on dealing with the personal horror of being a monster. In… Read more »

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dawfydd

Another cracking show chaps 🙂 And ref the Army Painter method I gotta say a variant of that has become my go-to technique for my minis now. (Almost) all of my Infinity use a colour primer (that I try to keep faction specific), block in some details then hit with a wash of some sort. Not nessecarily one of AP’s dips or tones but something to give the model a specific shade. It’s given me some great results, especially once I’ve gone back over “resetting” the base colours. I do need to breakout the dip method for some of my… Read more »

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dynarod1164

Happy Sunday! Must admit that I swear by the army painter dips still. Before I discovered them I had got into that mind set where it was taking weeks to paint a figure. Still do that with character minis, but for the rank and file its block paint and brushed on dip.

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Warzan sitting on the sofa..”Oooo….Ahh ………..”

@warzan You let a great opportunity slip you by to become the countries finest Frankie Howerd impersonator

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The AP dip is a nice product though it does tend to darken everything down if your not careful. If your going over white I would recommend a clesn brush and some white spirit to gently remove the excess For tanks etc I would recommend thinning it down slightly My best advice is to always brush it on and only do 3 or 4 models at a time as the products pools quickly and is hard to get rid of the excess after 4 or 5 mins. Also for tanks etc it works nicely if you do any highlighting before… Read more »

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I think the thing GW need to be careful of with Kill Team is given it’s a different game to 40K, that people don’t start playing it instead of 40K. If they’re smart they’ll incorporate Kill Team into the next edition of the game as a small model-count version of the same game, which you start with and build up to a full army from there. Also, if we don’t start seeing 6×4 mats from GW, then a shrinking of the model count in the next edition of 40K is a real possibility. 4×4 still gives a lot of space… Read more »

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I have friends attending the Kill Team weekend next month. Some are even taking two different forces so they can essentially get two tourneys in one weekend. It seems like they are already trying to cater for it.

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You misunderstand :). I don’t mean they’re not trying to cater for both games, I mean Kill Team is a separate game to 40K, and therefore it is has the double risk of not serving as an entry point for new players to 40K, and of creating its own scene of people who do not play 40K. By contrast, Warmachine has its small model-coint version in its starter boxes, but it is not a different game, and it is structured in such a way as to attract new players and lead them up to full-sized games. No-one sticks at playing… Read more »

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I see what you are saying buddy. Do you think 40k has an entry point for new players?

Also it would be good to hear why you think they are different games as to me it is 40k with a different force organisation chart. I have only played a couple of games of Warmachine so am not sure how it does scaling up to a 40+ aside model game.

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The question I would put to you is if Kill Team really should be a gateway into 40k? As it stands now, other than historicals, I believe 40k is the largest game on the market in terms of scale. At this point, it has no hope of being balanced out as there are too many characters,races,war gear,vehicles ex. existing in the 40k universe. The only option is to break it down and build it back again. If they are going to bother to do that then why not just make it smaller. Older gamers will still have their mini collections… Read more »

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I think there’s a very good argument to make for breaking 40K down and building it back up in the next edition as a lower model count game. At the other end of scale, Warmachine is probably the best example of how you keep your customer base buying models without also requiring them to field massive armies. For the record, I don’t play Warmachine or 40K and have no inherent personal bias to either. From a business point of view it absolutely makes sense for GW to have a low entry point to 40K, especially one which does not compete… Read more »

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“Also it would be good to hear why you think they are different games as to me it is 40k with a different force organisation chart. I have only played a couple of games of Warmachine so am not sure how it does scaling up to a 40+ aside model game.” My understanding of Kill Team is that the models activate individually. Also, it is sold as a separate game to 40K. As today’s show demonstrates, a customer can just decide to play Kill Team. A Warmachine customer does not decide to just play starter box games. Rather, they are… Read more »

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X-Wing is an example of another way you incentivise purchases without making the game bigger. Its model is different to Warmachine’s, and in many ways is informed by card gaming rather than mini-gaming. Here, a mini is packaged with cards which can be used with a variety of minis in the range. If you want the card to use with a different ship, you have to buy two products, one for the ship and one for the card. X-Wing has had power builds which required buying three copies of a ship you wouldn’t use just to get three copies of… Read more »

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@redben your right buddy each model does activate individually. Once the game starts each model is considered to be its own unit. I am not sure how else you would do a low model entry for 40K.
Disappointingly I rarely have the free time to hobby at all anymore and would love to be more diverse in the forces I could field and games I could play.

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“your right buddy each model does activate individually. Once the game starts each model is considered to be its own unit. I am not sure how else you would do a low model entry for 40K” 40K as it stands doesn’t lend itself well to scaling down in this way. A Warmachine starter is giving you models which activate individually at any size of game, and it works at any size of game. It’s very easy to then add squads to it as you build. The next edition of 40K can be designed in such a way as to allow… Read more »

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Then I am left wondering if GW will ultimately survive at all. No matter how big you get nature and evolution always has her say. Many an industry giant, thought unstoppable, has gone or been swallowed up by others over the years. And the gaming landscape seems to be shifting faster than most these days. While I don’t wish failure on anybody, perhaps this is the start of what was always coming.

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It’s certainly a concern (even for me as a non-GW customer). I think they have to evolve, and they look like they are trying to evolve. Where it ends up remains to be seen.

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@redben. As to the X-wing comment I hear things might be getting tough there as well. Friends say that in the beginning, it was about how good a pilot you were. as more and more card expansions and special abilities have been released, The strategy has been mitigated to nothing. Now a specific set of abilities, upgrades, and ships can make a player almost unbeatable. In an attempt to expand the game, and make more money, the game has delivered unto us the instruments of its own destruction.

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It’s a game I’ve only played casually. I play some of the FFG LCGs competitively and consequently find myself on the periphery of its tournament scene. It seemed to have balance issues in the early days, which I’m told were addressed. I can well believe what you say is an issue for the game. As you pile more stuff in you get bloat which can suffocate a game. FFG have been very happy in the past to make significant erratas to their card games to keep them fresh. I wonder if they’ll do the same to X-Wing.

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http://philhendry.me.uk/Phil_Wargaming_Website/third_century_roman_photo_a/index.html

Dr Phil Hendry has got the AP dip down to a fine art

You can have a look here

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panzerkaput

Oh my, Tomas’s Khador stuff is amazing and I love the movement that he has created into the model.

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I was interested to hear you talk about streamlining 40K. I for one have come away from 40K due to a couple of reasons, one of them being how convoluted it has gotten. I feel like many companies GW have to keep moving forward and release products. We have seen rules and units in the past that we thought were spot on and perfect as they were but were adjusted in the next edition or on a new release without gaining anything and often falling foul of becoming cheesy as you guys put it. We have seen armies stagnate for… Read more »

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There’s a difference between streamlined and simple. To give some examples – 1) You roll to hit, then roll to wound, then your opponent rolls to save. 2) You roll to hit, then your opponent rolls to save. 3) You roll to hit, and then compare the result to a hit chart. These progressively remove one set of dice rolls from combat, and hence streamline the system, but they are not simpler. The first one is obviously the Warhammer system, the middle one is used by Kings of War and God of Battles, and it is literally the same thing… Read more »

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When Rogue Trader came out I remember people saying the combat system was out of date and in a sense ‘old school’ and need to be streamlined Looking from the outside in and watching a few games at the club it seems the only way 40k adds new rules for new creatures/tanks etc is to add yet another save 40k for sometime seems to have been trying to get away from being a skirmish game Personally I would go to firepoints and units firing as a whole but I guess that would take away from the individuality that it gets… Read more »

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Thanks for the breakdown, i do appreciate you taking the time I guess I should of used ‘streamline’ instead of the word ‘simple’ which you seem to have focussed in on. Any opinions on the question buddy?

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I probably should have quoted this section in my reply – “I would like to know what the games you mentioned as having a very good rule system are as I am interested to see if there are many that have the character cards with the rules on them as part of the game. Essentially if its the core rules in these games that is simple, due to a lot of the complicated rules not being in them but specified on character/unit cards.” as it’s specifically what I was replying to 🙂 It is a problem for games that for… Read more »

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Thats cool. GW have dipped their toes in doing campaigns in decades gone by including large events at Warhammer World as well as others pitched nationally and internationally. With a rise through games like Frostgrave and a wealth of background both pre and post heresy maybe a step in this direction would be a good way to stop them needing to replace codexes on regular basis. It would allow them to stabilise the game and force mechanics while keeping people interested in making purchases and expanding the variety of their forces.

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Yep, that would be another good way. It’s downside is that campaigns tend to only be played by a section of the overall playerbase. Many players either don’t have the time or the inclination to invest in a campaign. For those who do, though, it keeps the game fresh without bloating it.

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warbossd

Some great points. The other factor that is often overlooked is game pacing. GW’s habit of adding another dice roll step into already an already complex daisy chain really slows game pace.
The dramatic speed differences between Kings of War and Warhammer Fantasy 8th are largely due to reduced dice rolling. Not having players roll close combat attacks in each others turns and removing armour saves is huge.
This is not to suggest endless table reference is any quicker as anyone who played Deadzone version 1 with its constant looking up of doubling and tripling results will attest.

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Set up time is another. As WFB used individual casualty removal, large units (with models that can be difficult to rank up), and large armies, setting up and packing away could take a lot of time. A friend of mine played an O&G into 8th ed and eventually gave up because of this.

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davidbosch

Happy Sunday gunstig. Great episode. Loven Mennes Khador models. The paintwork is amazing. They have aan Anime feel to them. There you’ll allways see big mechs jumping and kicking.

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