Alessio on Combat, Shooting and Special Rules in KoW
August 1, 2010 by warzan
In this final part of the interview with Alessio Cavatore, I get to ask him about his thoughts on the rest of the game mechanics (at least the ones he had started to solidify at this stage).
Its an interesting chat and really does give a fascinating insight into the inner thoughts of a game developer as he wrestles with the (often competing) demands of servicing a model range and servicing the community that adopts them.
By the end of our time with Alessio (having looked into the planned rules in some depth) we were left with a clear sense of excitement and anticipation that this game will be both fun to play, and will start to add what the Mantic range has been missing; 'character' to the models, because while they are just models they can feel static and un-alive, what Mantic and Alessio are embarking on now is the process that will take the model range and start to bring it to life.
Good times we are living in eh?
We have seen a bit of debate over the chess clock, and i suppose it should be stated that the chess clock is optional, but the interesting thing about the debates we have seen raging is the push back seems to be coming from those people who have never played (any game) with a chess clock before. Those that have seem to understand the great (optional) layer of fun having one can actually bring - even to a beer and pretzels game.
This is an interesting thing we see in the wargaming community quite a lot (at least within the vocal minority), a clear reluctance to try anything new, and just discount it without taking the time to even experiment with the idea. Now of course these attitudes exist in every industry, but seem to be some how more prevalent in the wargaming community - is this attitude the last bastion of defence to try and protect our industry from changing beyond recognition, or is it a poison that even turns the very young into stubborn traditionalists who fear scorn (or being flamed) for trying anything innovative?
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Can’t wait for the beta…
Just wondering about the size of that rulebook though… without twenty years of fluff and fifteen races, that’s gotta be tiny (compared to that GW monster)
To all the guys hating on rules that aren’t even in beta form let alone released, just stop and think about the opportunity we are being given. We have the chance to play in a new way, people complain about GW but then when something like this comes along it seems they fail to see how exciting it could be. I for one wholeheartedly back the guys at Mantic for trying a different approach. I’m still taking a wait and see approach. But until we get our hands on the final rules, lets encourage guys who are taking on the… Read more »
My thoughts exactly!
Not sure if I’ll end up getting into Kings of War, but I certainly enjoyed watching the coverage over the week. As an owner of an RPG Company (http://www.icirclegames.com) who was publishing a new take on fantasy and a non-traditional fantasy IP, I can definitely agree on people being reluctant to try anything different. It’s a shame really and partly why I’m not so crazy about Mantic Games. I understand they need to publish what will sell, but I get bored of the whole High Elves, Dwarves, and Undead theme. I wish other people would feel the same so we… Read more »
Maybe you are right harrower, but it is the basics that are appealing to a lot of people. Familiarity goes a long way in determining whether or not someone will gravitate to a new product. I know you want something different, but I do not think it was ever Mantic’s intention to make something different in the first place. I believe their intention all along has been to provide war gamers with an alternative to the over priced models they have been spoon fed for several decades. For example, Ten Grave Guard for $33.00 or 20 Undead Revenant $24.99, thats… Read more »
Hi Scythican. I totally understand that Mantic isn’t trying to do something different with this product. I respect that, but for someone like myself who has been playing RPGs and Wargamers for years, there really is no draw for me to get into their game because I’m already playing Warhammer and 40K. If they brought something new to the table so to speak, then I would be interested. Their High Elf range for example is very similar to GWs. Spear Elves? Check. Archers? Check. Bolt Thrower? Check. Prince on Dragon? Check. There is nothing wrong with this approach and it… Read more »
When will the Beta be released, and how will choice of weapon affect the unit for example with dwarves you get a giant two handed hammer and you get hammer and shield what will be the difference in what the unit can do.
i imagine it will just be a bonus to breaking the defence.
Bring on the beta…… some ideas I think could work others not…the proof is in the eating.
It seems like Morale is becoming another ressource to watch and manage rather than just a stat you roll against. So, if I understood things correctly, it’s not only the casualties you gotta worry about – but also the mental state your troops are in (with growing casualties troops become less reliable and tend to flee). I think this is a layer of complexity not yet explored in many fantasy systems. This could add some fresh air to things like fear and terror. I am not too keen on TLOS, I would prefer something along the lines of how Warmachine… Read more »
True Line of Sight is interesting as really it is a games terrain rules that create how it really works in a game. TLoS is a perfectly good system, but some companies then add the wrong type of terrain rules for the scale of their game. In small skirmish games terrain which is exactly represented by the piece on the table can often work but for larger battles more abstract and representative terrain is needed simply to allow units to move into and through such obstacles. Of course different people will prefer different styles and the above is just my… Read more »
Well, as you say, games were terrain matters are perfectly fine with TLOS. A cityfight in a ruined factory complex with just a five man strong force is great with TLOS. However, as we are talking MASSIVE clashes of Armies here… LOS should be kind of obvious. To give an example, I have really a hard time hiding my 40 men strong Barbarian horde in Warhammer. And I think in battles of such proportions were you have some hundreds of figures per side TLOS is a bit silly. But then again, maybe I have played too much Warmaster. It might… Read more »
I think I mixed up TLoS and LoS a bit when typing the bigger battle part of my reply, I should have mentioned LoS alongside the “more abstract and representative terrain” bit. I’m totally in agreement with you, TLoS was something that really put me off 8th edition Fantasy, I was a bit sad about that as I was hoping to get some enthusiasm back for the game I’d played on and off since 4th ed. The simplest problem with TLoS is how do you make terrain (woods/forests being the prime example) which can keep a unit hidden while also… Read more »
I have to say, I’m very excited about the beta. To actually have the chance to be involved with the development of the rules in this way is a boon, especially given the years of ‘this is what you’ve got, if you don’t like it, tough’ approach from GW. My only concern from this discussion is that damage won’t affect the combat ability of a unit – again, I can see why that route has been chosen, but it irks me to think that those casualties (even though not all damage is casualties) won’t affect the guys swinging swords/firing bows/etc… Read more »
Regarding “no affect despite casualties”. I think it’s just a matter of how they explain things, if they say “wouldn’t you fight harder if your mate has just been killed – either for revenge or not to share his fate”. Also, when did casualties affect the fighting abilities in most other wargames? In Warhammer as the closest thing to Kings of War it doesn’t matter if you have 10 or 100 guys in a unit – it’s only the first (and sometimes the second) rank fighting anyways and they fight with max-stats till the bitter end (I know there are… Read more »
i want in on the beta…why not have damage give you a -1 mod, rally before you break but once you break remove from the table etc etc
This video was much better than the others…or should i say i liked what i heard a lot more in this one 😉
maybe a mechanic that the larger units are easier to hit (bigger target) but are modified less by the wound counters for nerve checks than smaller units.
Well I hope to try out these rules, as it looks like we may see GW trying to compete with a company made from some experienced (former staff) people.
I would like an idea of how soon the beta is going to be. This may be some good stuff to balance out the game, and hopefully they dont fall into the same situation where you get an Army creeping out of balance.
Mantic better get the Beta out right quickly! There’s only 12 weeks till their announced release date and some of us have limited time to play and organize a game with others.
Although it’s likely this version of the rules will likely be little more than a pamphlet, I would think it would still take a few games to wrap ones head around the new system.
Just another comment on the chess clock in response to the introduction of the video. I do feel that there is a conservatism to wargaming and I felt that till I thought over the idea, though in the majority of my beer and pretzel games I would not use the clock. I would try it a few times and see how it goes though in theory I don’t think I’d enjoy it in a casual setting. Though I would be open to trying it for a 1-2 hour quick game. Though yeah I’m loving the direction Alessio is taking the… Read more »
issue now is what to buy from mantic……undead for sure. Dwarves or wait for orcs?? Fishmen from aliens attack?? 😉 I love the vblogs on the mantic site.
BTW fishmen could be good…think CofC and a small town near the sea
So PDF before midnight then guys?? that would be good for what ill do on Wednesday games night…one can hope
I second Fishmen.
Third. Even if it does just become World of Warcraft III, tabletop edition.
Forth.
And to think fish men were simply an April fool’s joke.
So in the new year Orcs come out. Part way through 2011 Humans arrive. And for January 2012 FISHMEN!!
With any luck I’ll be able to sub in my Lizard men.
Fishmen while naturally a bit of an injoke in wargaming circles could be done in very sinister fashion or like a neutral elemental force.
As trebormills says there are the various lovecraftian creations to draw from, and also numerous water-spirits and such, of both good and malevolent natures, in Scottish, Irish and many other countries folklore a fair few of which can come onto land.
I think my personal preference would be along the lines of atlantean/sea elf/water-spirits as opposed to full on half fish half men.
I can’t wait for the beta either. I am looking forward to a new way to play. Not to mention a chance to shape the rules to some degree, and as I think Ronnie mentioned to shape the story of the world as well via offcial tournies and events.
Large battles where the dead and dying are strewn across the field in a mad rush for victory sounds fun to me.
Just rolling twice to cause damage sounds really nice to me compared to the sometimes up to 6 rolls in WHFB. The thing Warren said about the cross refenerncing of tables is so true and I absolutely like the idea of simply rolling to a fix value. For the morale thing: On the one hand I like the idea that fleeing units are off the board instead of moving them toward the table edge every round until they are gone anyway. On the other hand i hope that we wont see fleeing units too often, because the game should still… Read more »
Me too want that beta and I want it now!
I am interested in introducing youngsters to fantasy gaming and I reckon this is the way to go
Hopefully they will see there is more to gaming than space marines lol
Thanks for the vids this weekend BoW, has been interesting and jolly good fun
Combat resolution sounds a lot like the ancient ruleset “Impetus.” And they are a top set of rules. So what we seem to have is a combining of Black Powder, a bit of Impetus and bit of new stuff. Looks promising and I can’t wait to see what comes out.
Big thumbs up Alessio and thanks Bow.
I’m realy likeing the sound of how this game will work. And I’m looking forward to the beta testing of the rules.
Great set of vid guys. Keep up the great work.
A thought about the “all inclusive turn” and I can’t help but think this will allow players to gang up on units. Bob have an elite unit. I will keep attacking it until it runs. And Bob is helpless to do anything about it. Plus in a big game, and I have done this in 40k Apocalypse games, the player who’s waiting for their turn goes off to do something else. Sitting around for 20 minutes before you have to come back to remove casualties gets boring. Personally I would like to see both players acting in each phase. You… Read more »
That was a thought I’d had myself after the first video. While I am perfectly happy with the idea of only one player rolling all the dice for an action their unit is doing to just be sitting there twiddling your thumbs while the other player goes would be a tad boring. Each player doing a phase each or perhaps even a unit each would keep that unopposed rolling style but also keep the game moving back and forth faster. I’ve not played many system that uses an “I activate a unit/model, you activate a unit/model” system but it does… Read more »
Classic Battletech worked this way and I found it quite stimulating.
OK. I have said this on every other Mantic vid and I’m going to say it again. Alessio please, please, please, put something into the rules that will allow people to bring in non-mantic armies into the game. Mantic at this time only has 3 armies. Plus I would like to point out that right now is the perfect time to steal Warhammer players away from GW. In my part of the world Warhammer 8th ed. goes for $100.80. Not everyone can afford that kind of money. So your game could let us use are armies in a different and… Read more »
Of course in Warhammer they do have the advantage of carrying on the army books from a previous edition with some minor changes to make them work. I could very well see a wee booklet similar to Ravening Hordes from when the armybooks were completely wiped and redone for 6th edition Warhammer being a nice addition though. It would depend of course on the rulesset, the kind of stats needed and if Mantic wanted to release a “get you by” set of army lists which wouldn’t be based on the character of their models, something which seems to be a… Read more »
I for one am very excited about this. As a long time 40K player and someone who is getting into Warhammer Fantasy I am very excited about a new game coming on the scene which is preaching simplicity. I am the chairman of a wargaming group and one of the hardest things I find is getting people interested in other gaming systems. Biggest two reasons people give for sticking with what they have are: 1) Cost of take up – £40 for the rules then all the models! Massive investment for something you may not get on with 2) Complexity… Read more »
Zombie unit that regains damage for dealing it out to the enemy in close combat? The ability to turn opponents casualties into your troops but it takes away their damage counters? That would be a fun strategic decision, choosing between routing the enemy or bolstering your ranks.
Hi BoW and Allesio, I really enjoyed the Kings of War weekend. The rules so far seem pretty nice and really simple. No charts to compare and the simple rules will hopefully make the game very accessable for newcomers. But beware: a simple game can get boring soon. You may reply:”But chess is a simple game too, and it doesn’t get boring”. Well, what makes chess interesting is that you have a lot of options during your turn, but you can only move a single piece. And then, there is no luck involved. You can (up to a certain point)… Read more »
Mostly agree, though instead of two rulesets it would be just as easy to use KoW to entice new players, then let the players move on to existing wargames using mantics models. Seems that not many people really bother going to GW stores and tournaments to actually play wargames so mantics KoW appeals to the garage players at homes and friends places: which then allows people to agree to new rules between themseves anywaywhen they feel ready to move up a notch into the complex world of wargaming.
I am looking forward to the beta and I think it’s going to be a good and nice game system, but what I would like to see for once (as mentioned above) were new races that aren’t set in a medieval fantasy world (what I mean with that are things like elves, orcs, drawes and humans you know the classic races) I think a races which doesn’t fall in that category would be quiet nice, and even if it were just humans with an eastern, middle eastern or indian air around them, like giant war-elepahnts, warriros on camels, samurais, things… Read more »
It seems that to simplify things, wounds and leadership/courage/will type things have been cleverly and ridiculously logically (ridiculous in that it’s not been done before) into Morale “points” or somesuch. It’s so obvious and simple to have done it tjat way. People may compare it to HP or hitpoints in things like MMORPGs, which I guess it sort of is, but it’s representing more than those that are left alive and instead shows their will to fight, the mettle of those left, how many are left, etc. Magic: I love the thought that magic will be as simple as demoralise… Read more »