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Kickstarter rising costs, the end to big box games What will the future be ?

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This topic contains 19 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  onlyonepinman 2 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #1746390

    redscope
    Participant
    2718xp

    Personally I am not someone that follows kickstarters developments to any large degree. However it is difficult to ignore the current set of problems a number of kickstarter are having. This is not just one or two issues but a wider problem across the hobby industry.

    That is one of rising prices and namely of shipping costs. People who recently backed cmon zombicide marvel found out the true cost as expected shipping costs have almost doubled. To what degree you blame the company for this I difficult to say but when you post shipping is expecetd to be 45 dollars and it is 72 dollars for a 240 dollar game you can understand why customers are upset.

    It is not just a single game oathsworn creater put out an almost heartbreak video to explain how shipping costs had risen from 500,000 to 800,000 and left the company broke. He had to beg people who backed it for more money to complete the project this on a 6 million dollar launch.

    They are not alone a number of companies have quit kickerstarter completely only doing retails others have just closed. We are seeing even the big companies Monolith, Mythic down scaling staff and looking at small projects. The real impact is on these massive kickstarters that offer a ton of models which have these very large overheads in shipping costs.

    The real question is does the kickstart method really have a future? Did we just get the point where companies are offering where just crazy and margins so low they made just not really making any business sense ? What does the future hold for games designs on kickerstarter ? Is the golden age of Kickstarter at an end ?

     

    #1746394

    danlee
    22443xp
    Cult of Games Member

    I think kickstarter depended on a stable global economy which allowed for predictable costs. Those days are gone and I’m not confident they’ll be back anytime soon. Companies will need to switch to more locally sourced materials and services which they can depend on.

     

    It depends on the specifics of course. All digital kickstarters aren’t affected while large board games with complex international supply and distribution chains are being hammered.

    #1746425

    darthcheese
    Participant
    4436xp

    Not sure it does for the big boxed stuff. For small niche lines, Spectre Minis for example started on KS or STL’s I think it’s still got a life. But I wonder if a Kickstarter fatgiue might be starting to set in. I can’t be the only one to back a project and then when it arrives 6 months to a year later all enthusiasm for it has gone. And that’s assuming it doesn’t arrive late (looking at you Stargate RPG 8 months late and still no sign). I wonder if people are no just happy to wait or buy something else, not like there’s a shortage of new toys out there.

    #1746427

    onlyonepinman
    18060xp
    Cult of Games Member

    Shipping costs are absolutely crippling right now – Battle Systems said in a recent video that their quarterly shipping costs had risen from £15000 to something like £80000.  I honestly can’t see any end to it either.  Not only is there still a backlog, China are still pissing about trying to get to a zero COVID state and so there’s still bottle necks there.  And then of course, just as we thought we were getting out of the woods Putin thought, “I know, let’s have a war”.  Cheers for that, dick head.

    So I think lots of things currently face an uncertain and likely expensive future and certainly the old massive pile of boxes is perhaps not quite as viable any more.  Then again, I wonder if that is such a bad thing?

    #1746428

    sundancer
    42976xp
    Cult of Games Member

    The ones that are really suffering are projects who really counted on “producing cheap outside their own country” and then importing it to send out. That’s currently a very expensive method. And it takes longer because China is still very much shutting places down once C-19 comes around.

    Smaller, more local projects (or pure digital ones) still work out fine. Yes, even locally produced stuff may end up being more expensive (or lessen the profit margin for the producers) due to over all rising shipping costs but not to that degree.

    There will be a shift to “produce in house” again for the foreseeable future I think. After that we’ll shift back to “on demand from cheap-land”.

    #1746493

    angelicdespot
    4689xp
    Cult of Games Member

    I think this combination of events will reduce the number and scope of larger kickstarters for some considerable period of time. If the global situation stabilises, it won’t be soon. And in that time, lots of companies will struggle, especially those trying to work out how to pay for projects already under way.

    One further factor though is that I get the sense that the number of massive kickstarters over the years has meant that at least part of the market is saturated due to people running out of storage space. This doesn’t mean that no one was buying them any more, but I think at least some were buying fewer of these games and/or were more likely to sell them on. No one has room for an endless number of these huge games with boxfulls of expansions. I think this combines with increased prices and unpredictability to tip people over the edge of ‘no more’…

    Though the adjustment will be painful for parts of the industry, I guess we have to hope that there will be a shift to more local production as well as to a focus on quality over mass.

    #1746567

    captainventanus
    Participant
    4936xp

    Depends what you think the Golden Age was about?

    If it’s about designers or small companies being able to take an idea to market and raise the capital to realise something that otherwise would not have been possible then no it’s not over.

    If it’s about getting a tower of boxes filled with masses of plastic for a few 100 $/€ and a shipping cost more akin to something ordered off the internet when in fact its more a freight item then yes that’s over.

    The relative low cost high ‘value’ of the early years of the big box games came from low labour and material costs in China along with cheap freight and companies (not all, but many) glossing over the game design in favour of pushing mass material. The novelty of getting these impressively large looking games that would not be possible to sell in general retail owing to their size, coast etc.. – perfectly good reasons – was powerful. In addition the Kickstarter process side-stepped the VAT issue for a significant part of the market and thus made games look cheaper than they should have been.

     

     

     

     

     

    #1746586

    onlyonepinman
    18060xp
    Cult of Games Member

    One thing that the world, not just the games manufacturers, really, really needs to learn from all this:

    1. Don’t centralise all of the world’s manufacturing capability in a single country

    2. Especially don centralise all of the world’s manufacturing capability in China

     

     

     

     

    #1746623

    pagan8th
    Participant
    10863xp

    If the last few years have taught us anything… it’s don’t rely on Russia and China to supply things.

    Ukraine and Covid proved that.

    It may cost a bit more for the manufacturing, but reduced shipping costs and speedier delivery would make kickstarter a more pleasant experience. It tend to go for UK companies now that make their produce in house, or at least locally.

    #1746643

    ced1106
    Participant
    6224xp

    KS has a fundamental problem that you commit to funds, during the campaign, before knowing shipping costs, when the pledge manager is opened. As another poster said, that’s fine when prices are stable. Prices aren’t stable. Reaper miniatures said they weren’t even attempting estimates, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that was part of the reason why its last Bones KS made 1/3 as much as their previous ones (I’d say their lackluster variety of sculpts contributed, not that a smaller scope KS is a bad idea nowadays).

    Some backers think shipping costs should be paid closer to actual shipping times. Pledge managers don’t seem to have this capability, not that they shouldn’t. But, then, you’ll still have backers upset when one company’s shipping costs are higher than another (because companies don’t tell you nor do they necessarily know how much they will subsidize shipping costs).

    > Smaller, more local projects (or pure digital ones) still work out fine.

    Especially with Siocast! Juegorama’s switched from China’s injection molding to Siocast, possibly in-house. Metal and resin, of course, is not cast in China, and made locally as well (although both cost more per mini than plastic, and resin has its own problems). I also got a CamelCamelCamel alert that the “ELEGOO 3D Resin Printer” has dropped in price, although China still supplies the resin. 😛 Domestic shipping can still be a pain. I doubt it’s an easy decision to set up another hub for FedEx, and fuel prices affect shipping domestically as well.

    With VAT, international backers look to be getting hit the hardest. I didn’t check the location of everyone in the Mythic Anastyr KS who paid high costs for shipping, but I suspect they’re mostly international. In the USA we have free shipping thresholds with online retailers (eg. Amazon, Miniature Market, Noble Knight), but I don’t know what alternatives hobbyists overseas have to KS. I know that imported boardgames there are expensive.

    3D printing projects on KS are on the rise, so I guess as 3D printers are becoming better, KS will again improve. Maybe China — or another country — will return to being a source of cheap plastics. Or maybe some other major change will happen that happens to affect KS. I’m looking forward to British police boxes that you can put three room’s of plastic miniatures in, myself. 😛

    #1746654

    limburger
    21706xp
    Cult of Games Member

    ‘free’ shipping thresholds tend to rely on volume … and it is factored into the price you pay (there is no ‘free’ anything).

    VAT is pretty much the same story.
    It’s not like we suddenly have to pay that.
    It’s more that they’ve also become more transparent as to what goes were, so the ‘hidden’ costs become more obvious.
    I’m not sure if laws have changed that much since Kickstarter to be honest, although Brexit is an exception … .

    Tell someone an item costs “100$” or “60$ + 20$ in shipping + 20$ in VAT” …
    The latter only looks worse.
    That usually is the difference between a project that is  EU/UK friendly and one where the owner didn’t factor in the overhead.

    Kickstarter/Crowdfunding is and always will be just another tool for companies to use to fund their projects.
    The only change I’ve seen is that a lot of boardgaming/tabletop projects have shifted from ‘Kickstarter’ to ‘Gamefound’, which is a bit more boardgame focused (and probably has other benefits as well). Kickstarter itself has become a bit more activist, which has definitely resulted in some companies jumping ship.

    #1746655

    slayerofworlds
    Participant
    3449xp

     

    https://www.freightwaves.com/news/us-import-demand-drops-off-a-cliff

     

    Things with freight and shipping are starting to normalize.   Which means shipping prices may begin to fall, most likely not overnight.  But things are beginning to work themselves out.

    #1746669

    ced1106
    Participant
    6224xp

    As long as things don’t include China, right? 😛

    China COVID jitters flare up as parts of Shanghai resume lockdown: “Shanghai and Beijing went back on fresh COVID-19 alert on Thursday after parts of China’s largest economic hub imposed new lockdown restriction and the city announced a round of mass testing for millions of residents.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/china/shanghais-minhang-district-announces-new-lockdown-2022-06-09/

    BTW, Considering you can’t exactly file corruption charges against CoVid and throw a virus into jail…

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-xi-jinping-cannot-back-down-coronavirus-202810

    #1746671

    slayerofworlds
    Participant
    3449xp

    Well if you read the article.

    “The “container surge” that many have been expecting from Shanghai (thought to be building during the lockdowns) appears to have mostly already been rerouted through the Port of Ningbo (yellow). With access to the Port of Shanghai being largely blocked due to landside restrictions (i.e., road closures), shippers were quick to reroute volumes through the closest alternate major port to the Port of Shanghai (red). ”

     

    Why does anyone thing companies are just going to halt everything and wait for China to lift restrictions.   They arent.  They have been working hard the last few years doing nothing but setting up alternative routes for their products.  They learn.  They adapt.   Lol.

    In fact most companies have now developed more rebust shipping procedures during these trying times, back up plans and back up back up plans.

    All I am saying is the more things change, the more the stay the same.   Big box games may see a drop for awhile, but they will come back.  Where there is money there are ways.

     

     

    #1746709

    tankkommander
    Participant
    6423xp

    If the KS bubble bursts it will take down a few well known companies who rely of the constant stream of projects to fund the company (a business model that looks very much like a pyramid scheme in terms of financial stability). I expect to see more KS failures and more unhappy people who lose money and then wake up to the fact that KS offers zero consumer protection.

    Personally there are maybe 2 or 3 companies who I trust with my KS cash. And these days I have no interest in a ‘pay now get a product in 12 months time’.

    A lot of costs can rise in that time, and coming back and asking for more cash is a real possibility. What do you do? Throw more cash at a failing project, or just write off your loss?

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