The Weekender XLBS: The Future Of Gaming Stores & Inclusivity
September 7, 2014 by lloyd
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Happy Sunday everyone.
Regarding 3D printing and DRM, our range is being designed with this in mind to future proof our range, As you said, its just a matter of time 🙂
Glad to heard some took the torch! Be sure to discuss your DRM system with the community, things similar to what Steam made for DRM are fine for most of us, while old Microsoft DRM was pretty bad!
Also the main reason why we would love to use your system rather than 3DScan+3DPrint will be things like being able to easily pose the miniatures, change outfits and gear in general… even hairstyles! All that service makes us want to use that environment rather than go ARRR way :P, same happens with Spotify and Hulu.
I want one of those codes.
Hasbro is actually in an interesting position relative to GW here:whilst there are many (many) companies now selling kits & bits compatible with GW kits, there are WAAAAY more groups putting out their own 3rd party transforming robots intending to fill gaps that Hasbro have seemingly no interest in filling, And if you type “Transformers” into Shapeways you get an equally huge list of conversion & upgrade parts and even complete figures. Yes you pay more than you would for a toy off the shelf, but people are buying into the 3rd party in a way that lets it sustain… Read more »
So someone made a remark about GW being a white straight man’s game because they only have white space marines and guard (conveniently forgetting about the Sisters of Battle now) and now we’re seeing all kinds of problems in the hobby about race and inclusivity of minorities??? Sigh… If any game has to be “all white” shouldn’t it be 40K? Come on you know the fluff, it’s all about racial purity, killing the mutant and the abhuman within humanity even before looking at aliens. It’s the grimdark background. Look at “Beyond the Gates of Antares” and read the fluff. No… Read more »
You know, I clearly said in the video a couple of things. 1) we are coming to the community for guidance on this and want help to create a position (or form of words) 2) we asked for the topic to be treated with some sensitivity So how about toning it down just a notch My thoughts on your thoughts Regardless of how or why we got here, in 25 years the world has changed and right now we need to do a health check on the industry to see if it has the potential to grow and diversify its… Read more »
First about toning it down: trying to discuss through rather short written messages in what is not my native language may make me sound blunt or insensitive. So be it. As the problem seems to come from GW and their all white 40K human line, there might be another reason why so few non whites play… We as working middle class whites bitch and moan about GW prices. A part of those swats of society you refer to, will turn up in every social survey as being overrepresented in unemployment and low wages statistics. No amount of sculpting or painting… Read more »
Indeed
But this surely is not a GW issue but one for the wider industry to slowly take on board (that includes board games, card games etc)
Some already are, more could and should.
If we are thinking only in the short term, your correct there is absolutely no solution… But this is not a short term issue but a long term one.
And every journey has to start with a single step. And I would rather be part of an industry that is opening it’s arms, rather than shutting its eyes and ears.
I would like to add that no matter what you both have said, there are other ways… The game Eden features main factions of very diverse cultural backgrounds in a post-apoc setting. The Bamaka are african tribesmen, there are japanese-inspired robots, an arabic-like faction, another very culturally diverse faction of survivors… different ages and body types as well… the sexism issue is dealt with the Matriarchy, too… The game was created, among others, by a frenchman of north-african descent : Mohand Ait Mehdi. He has said before that he wanted to create a skirmish game that would be of easy… Read more »
@elromanozo Thanks for drawing my attention to Eden, it’s a game I wasn’t really aware of before. I’ve taken a good look at their full range and I have to say, there are some great miniatures there. I especially like the resistance. The diversity of miniatures in that faction is fantastic, with several races, both genders and a range of ages represented. One miniature in particular “Alice” stands out for me as a brilliant portrayal of a strong, black woman. However, I get to the Bamaka faction and … oh dear! Why are the black African faction primitive, spear wielding,… Read more »
@erastus, I know for a fact that there are guys from African descent playing and influencing the game at the highest level. They don’t think it’s a problem to have an african faction in a post apocalyptic world where EVERYONE uses primitive weapons, except the robots… Bamaka are quite adapted, actually. It’s a fictitious, yet proud culture. Real african terms are used. It has the trappings of a partly rediscovered and partly invented pseudo-african culture in a world where Africa doesn’t exist. I too would like GW to have a more open policy towards inclusiveness in its games. Or any… Read more »
I’d love to be able to have a discussion about this with you @elromanozo but honestly, what would be the point? You’re not interested in anyone else’s opinion, just proving that you are correct. I find you arrogant and patronising in the extreme.
The point I was trying to make @elromanozo is that if my first reaction at seeing Taban’s African faction is that they look a bit like negative stereotypes of Africans, then whether that is justified or not, it’s probably not the best example of something which might appeal to potential black players. Also, this whole sh*tstorm kicked off because you started throwing around words like “racism” and “homophobia”. Not helpful. Not fecking helpful when we are trying to have a serious debate. Stop trying to win the internet, stop trying to polarise opinion, stop trying to prove you are better… Read more »
@erastus This is a very interesting strategy you take there. @elromanzo has stated that he has a different view than yours and gives a valid reason for that to be so. In this case that Eden is a post-apocalyptic game and that people who are from an African background influence the game. Then he basically shares your view, but in a bit more elaborate fashion and he even gives to the point that the portrayal of the Bamaka might have it’s own problems. Now you say that it makes no sense to argue with him, because he is arrogant. This… Read more »
@erastus tone down the name calling please. People don’t have to agree on all of this, the topic is too wide, and all of our points of reference are different when dealing with an international community.
But the end goal is still pretty much the same.
@erastus, I will not even dignify your insults with an answer… But I’m hardly surprised of them, coming from you. You have shown less than civilized behavior in many, many posts regarding GW or any game. I realize these are emotional subjects, and that you like GW’s games, but this gives you no right to treat anyone that way. Who is arrogant ? I am confident in what I state, as I have met the Eden guys many times. They live in my city and frequently visit the same game stores I do. Their influences and reasons for creating Eden… Read more »
I do not know where you come from or your age but where I am from (London) there are many asian and black middle class families and in the GW where I grew up and other west London stores I would see non white gamers and female gamers. So maybe your point is not a valid one, perhaps it is just living in a larger city than yourself but the answer is never to ignore the issue or make excuses, especially in an environment in politics and the media where race and religion is being made a unnecessarily simplistic and… Read more »
I’m not sure I’m following your point (which is my fault, not yours :)). It’s good to hear that there is more diversity in London. There’s no doubt that overall the industry doesn’t have much but that would prove that at the very least there’s no good reason why there can’t be more non-white and female gamers. Are you saying that even though you do see diversity, it’s an issue that still shouldn’t be ignored?
Hi redben, I was kind of addressing witterlidderluddlo’s views that GW’s customer base were white and middle class males due to the fact of the expensive price of their products and that society as a whole and its shortcomings were the real reason for this imbalance in the distribution of wealth across class and racial groups. This point of his I agreed with but disagreed with the fact that this is always the case and that therefore the need to address the lack of diversity in the models was unecessary (this is my understanding atleast of what he meant). Yes… Read more »
Thanks 🙂
It’s interesting looking at the games mentioned that introduce other races and create diversity. Infinity, Helldorado, Malifaux, Carnevale. They are all games where the main antagonists are other humans, with a splash of supernaturals. Malifaux had different humans using magic with different allegiances, with the original inhabitants of malifaux providing that pure supernatural enemy. So you have the Ten Thunders, mainly asian, in the vein of the rail crews and triads. Infinity, a game based around the majority of malefactors being other humans. Not just other humans but other humans from different countries and continents. This means, just by pure… Read more »
I don’t want to sound like I’m speaking out in favour of all white armies, I’m not and anyone who checks out some of my armies will know that. However, the world hasn’t changed that much in the last 25 years. Britain is still 87% White British, which means that the biggest area for growth for any wargames company in the UK is white people because, well, there are far more white people who don’t play wargames than there are playing them. Peronally I paint armies with skin tones that I think will make the army look its best. This… Read more »
Hi Warren and BOW comunity, I am relatively new to this forum and I am actually a scale modeler and have just recently got into Dust Tactics because of the models. This led me to your forum which I find a great source of info and enthusiasm, wel done to you guys. I see all this going on about “white” racism in GW, and perhaps gaming in general, wel I am a white male living in South Africa. Perhaps I might know thing or two about racial tensions, however I think that as a nation with immense cultural divesaties (we… Read more »
Interesting topic about the future of game stores. Warren, check this kickstarted I heard about on a podcast called “The Independent Characters”.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/endgameoakland/endgame-cafe-coffee-games-community?ref=card
You can say that the fluff justifies an all-white cast, but the fluff wasn’t something immutably planned out for GW with no input of their own. They made the conscious choice to write the fluff such that it it would justify their current lineup. They wrote the fluff. They could have just as easily written different fluff, and it’s fair to ask why companies today don’t do so more often. It could still be the grimdark future of only war without being all-white. The whiteness is not essential to the core of the story (and I would argue that a… Read more »
Infinity does a great job on racial issue, i mean all my chinese/jap/korean friends own yu jing armies since they can related to them much more. Imagine if this hobby could extend into asia, the industry would be multiple of its size.
Great show, guys! I have to say that as far as I am concerned, being female, Beasts of War has always made me feel welcome as a gamer. I do think you’re spot on with the industry as a whole needing to do better broad targetting for getting gamers of all kinds into the hobby and keeping them there.
I want one of those codes!
I want one of those codes.
Most pubs in the eastend that shut down either become tescos , Polska schlepski or African churches . None of these are bad things . Venues need to be at a place that are accessible, places like dark sphere , that takes an industrial space , lots of tables , lots of retail space, but not a foodspace , yes it sells cans , but that’s all. It’s dedicated to gaming , they aggresivly market competitions , tournaments and the sales come from the magic players that come in, the infinity players that come in , the 40k players that… Read more »
Great show, a pair of really insightful discussions. Wait a second, did someone say donuts?! Don’t do yourself down, Warren, you’re an elegant and articulate voice. The discussion on the future of game stores began to wander into this but it simply is good business sense to widen the appeal of gaming as much as possible. Interesting comments on the comic book industry. As well as gender, Marvel and DC have struggled since the 1980s with an aging demographic and whatever they’ve tried to get kids reading their books again hasn’t worked. Kids are reading comics in increasing numbers, they’re… Read more »
Talking about RPGs, has anybody else seen the latest D&D PHB? Wizards did a really good job with the art there. It feels very diverse, but in a casual way. It doesn’t feel forced or contrived. There’s just a lot of great art that also just happens to depict a wide variety of people. I think they’re really doing a good job there, and they are one of the big companies in hobby gaming. That’s a good sign, and we should promote that. Another good RPG from the 90s, Shadowrun, has always tried to depict a more racially diverse world.… Read more »
It’s mentioned on the fluff on multiple occasions about female Guard.
I understand the difficulties of game stores, and have sympathy with owners who are trying to make a living in a difficult environment. But from a gamers pov, I have zero anxiety for the future of the hobby if they become extinct. No one sits agonising about the future of fishing or model railways or lawnmower racing because of their dwindling retail chains! Hobbies endure because of the enthusiasm of their participants, not the strength of the commercial entities whith sre supported by them. I don’t rely on wargaming stores, my 2 geeky sons don’t, nor do either of the… Read more »
Could well be the case, but both fishing and model rail are ‘solo’ hobbies and don’t require opponents of groups of individuals (they have them sure, but technically don’t need them)
Well, lawnmower racing ( seriously, it’s a thing – there are leagues and everything!) is a group hobby with no attached, dedicated retail sector. Perhaps I’m being facetious though. I would challenge the notion that the future of the hobby lies in the hands of retail interests. My contention is that reailers (in the UK at least) play only a minor part in the wider hobby. I would contend that perhaps 15 years ago it was the case that their stores were the main driver. I suspect that is not the case any more – simply because gw have become… Read more »
Exactly, I think this is the point we’re making, retail itself doesn’t really have a future, you have to start thinking about what the alternatives could be if you want to stay in business 🙂
I want one of those codes.
I take my hat off to you gents. You are not only brave to put it out there but you’re right.
Keep up the amazing work.
The issue is that the gaming market is growing a “Long Tail”… a lot of different products/SKUs frm multiple providers thata physical store will never be able to stock. Even GW stores can’t stock all GW items. In the book world Amazon exists to service this kind of market. The ‘venue’ model is right – and that’s what GW got right for a while. The store I used to visit had a cafe next door that did good business off the gamers – they stayed open for gaming nights and opened early for bacon rolls etc. when the masses assembled… Read more »
I agree click and collect could be great. 🙂
Regarding Tolkien etc I really don’t want to make this about GW, this is something the industry as a whole will have to take small steps in. The reaction at the start will likely be mixed, the financial gains and incentives very low, but with every small step hopefully years from now we will be creating a rich and diverse (race, gender, age etc) marketplace that dwarfs what we have today and encourages growth of our companies and many many new games and ranges.
It’s not just GW – lots of fluff (fantasy) is based on Tolkein.
BTW – checkout
http://www.thirstymeeples.co.uk/ in Oxford with 1500 board games you can play
and was it https://www.facebook.com/MeltdownLondon Lloyd was referring to?
Or probably the “Loading Bar” which moved from Soho to Hackney this year…drinkrelaxplay.co.uk not working all seems to be on Twitter (https://twitter.com/drinkrelaxplay)
“that dwarfs what we have today”
Refuting the dominance of Tolkein by using “dwarfs”. I like what you did there lol
lol well spotted 😉
wish it was intentional lol
I don’t want one of those codes because I impulse bought it while watching the Weekender yesterday. In regards to the more sensitive topic, I recently decided after finishing the Wheel of Time series of books to make an Army of the Dragon for Kings of War. For those of you that haven’t read it the final army that the Dragon Reborn leads is pretty ethnically and gender diverse. The first units I wanted to make were the Maidens of the Spear as a bodyguard horde unit for the Dragon Reborn which originate from a desert and wear veils when… Read more »
In terms of game stores however there’s a place in Glasgow (not really a game store) that is a cafe with space for small games. There’s also a proper gaming cafe opened in Hamilton just the other day there called Settlers if anyone in the neighbourhood wants to check that out 😉
Table Top Nation went down this route, if it was a little closer to me I would go there much more ofter, I know that London prices are way to expencive, but would love to see somthing like TTN in London
Have you been to dark sphere?
FYI the London games pub , 500 pound out 160000 and seven days to go!
I am fairly sure there are no rules on the skin colour you can paint your figures. Why not show your view on this by painting a mixed race force? Warzan how many of your new imperial navy troops are not white males? I know a good portion of my imperial guard (troopers and officers) are not white. You are in a position where people will see your miniatures in the videos and pictures posted here. Show the way, start doing it and I am sure people will take notice.
This is a great point, but it runs deeper than the colours you paint your minis (although I’m sure that is an important and practical step)
One step at a time, the little things do matter 🙂 you have to start somewhere right?
this brings up a really interesting point about studio paint jobs I think … … being a professional miniatures sculptor, I’ve tried to embrace the idea of sculpting with more racial diversity in my sculpts 🙂 I think it’s a really positive message to push forward for the hobby 🙂 and as a designer, I feel it’s my responsibility to help promote this diversity to help improve our hobby 🙂 and also, it’s simply just more interesting for me as a sculptor too, to have that extra variety 😉 … now … saying that, I’ve sculpted minis that are quite… Read more »
An enlightening perspective ! Thanks !
always happy to help with the discussion if I can 🙂
… it’s a difficult issue to talk about sometimes,
but it’s really good to see people thinking about it 🙂
… I just hope I can help out a bit, and improve the situation in my own little way 🙂
on the sculpting side of things 🙂
… well, I try to anyway 😉
When I developed my first Space Marine chapter I went for a ‘Large Cat’ theme (Units’ ingsinia based on Lions, Tigers, etc.) and those models that weren’t wearing helmets were of various skin types. Was good fun…
I can think of Mercs Sefadu as an overtly African force, but am I right in thinking that they were effectively ‘dropped’ as a force from future campaigns as an outcome of another?
Brilliant show as always guys. Always a difficult subject to talk about. I really hope you all appreciate that I too now am just talking frankly and don’t mean to cause any offence. A point not raised, which may appear unsavoury, is that like attracts like and it is not a problem that is restricted to our gaming community. For people in the UK we are still feeling the repercussions of the Steven Lawerence case, where it highlighted a lack of diversity within the police force. An advert which highlights this like attracting like is the Hellmans Mayonnaise advert https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yrq6sdFAyj0… Read more »
Charity shops qualify for an 80% Business Rates Discount and some Councils offer a ‘discretionary relief’ up to 100% and this is the only realistic way to achieve the essential High Street location. Charity shops often have coffee bars with snacks and cakes as an add on to raise funds. Why not approach an existing charity with failing stores in prime locations and find out how you can work something out as symbiosis exists on a ‘store within a store’ principle. People would come to the Cafe to play games and the Charity would raise funds through the sale of… Read more »
I want codes please. About “racist” industry I disagree with you @warzan there is plenty of diversity in our hobby and nothing has to be done because nothing have to be done. All games are doing fine. The only game that has “white” focus 40k has plenty of diversity as well. Elfs/eldars/dark eldars and slanesh are female based, tau – you are all welcome – type of approach. sisters of battle – great army. One of best s/m armies in my opinion salamanders and white scars are not white and quite popular. if you don’t like it you can create… Read more »
Hi I am new to the BoW site been watching on the youtube channel for a while but was interested in this weekender talking about future FLGS so bought myself a backstage pass….. Funnily enough it was voicing what I have been thinking to myself for a while now…hence my slightly tongue in cheek log in name….I ran a FLGS/PC repair centre as I thought the cross over and diversification might help both businesses survive the downturn….What I did learn though was that in the gaming events that were held it was the local corner shops/takeaways that earned more money… Read more »
I’m a huge warzone fan and part of that is the diversity of the miniatures. Big bob, Iron Lady, the whole Mishima faction, the point of warzone is that humanity has diversified. As a father of three girls I’m always looking at games for us to play together as they get older. I heavily backed Wolsung for that reason. Had carnevale been available/promoted at the same time I may have chosen differently. The biggest trouble I find, in a house where I’m outnumbered 4 to 1, is finding enough female characters in any game that the girls can all play… Read more »