Pointless Views: Puzzling Dungeon Crawls
October 4, 2019 by warzan
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I am unbelievably pissed at Joan of Arc and I didn’t even back them. The f*cking nerve of them to just say “Hey guys we sold you a steaming pile of dog turds lol soz bro I know you paid for a hardcopy of the book but here’s what you paid for only it’s digital and very late if you want what you actually paid for give us more money and we promise this time to actually give it to you”. And yet people have just handed over almost 3/4 of a Million dollars for single pose plastic 15mm minis… Read more »
you know what I got all of the Battlefront free copies and never even thought about them, although in that case that was a completely new edition which you would think would be the time that people would willingly pay for them
@avernos A company that came to mind with regard to kickstarters and coming out with the next edition is Mantic with Deadzone. The first edition wasn’t perfect and had a few issues out of the box but they took time, took feedback and they really tighten it up for the second editions. I think their timing was quite good in terms of bringing out a second edition.
Exactly Battlefront were able to give away books when there was zero expectation for them to do it (not only did they suffer the loss of giving away free books but they also lost any income from people buying those books) so any excuse the JoA guys come up with won’t mean much to me especially with the money they’re bringing in from kickstarter.
@avernos would possibly have backed 1.5 , mainly as didn’t do it 1st time round, and did fancy Tuetonics so for me the quick re-release didnt’ flag anything. Do see your point of view, and had I not had my goodies or even just had my goodies, would probably feel as passionate about as you where. one of the reasons pre you points in show, I didn’t when looking at it on monday after your fun lets play. 1) already in ks for Reichbusters and would like that delivered before parting with more pennies 2) May be wrong but looks… Read more »
Please show me where in the first KS did they state that the rulebook and ALL the scenarios you would receive would be in hardcover? Did they have issues in the first rule set, yes, and they would not be the first to offered errata in PDF format so again, I do not see the issue. You can play the game today without issue. There are 40 scenarios to keep you occupied. Second, the 1.5 KS is compilation of all the rules, all the scenarios including ALL the ones that were going to be PDF in the first KS. The… Read more »
They stated the Rulebook would be Hardcover by selling you a hardcover Rulebook. If they wanted to make a Living PDF Rulebook then they should have done that instead. Before they even mailed it out they had made it no longer current and produced an updated version. Remember they’re selling you a Rules System and part of that is a Hard Cover Rulebook. So someone backs the kickstarter because they’re promised a working game with a Hard Cover Rulebook. Now what they get is a choice between a broken game with a Hard Cover Rulebook or a fixed game with… Read more »
I get where you are coming from, I really do. But I have backed 1.0 all-in and I don’t have a hardcover rulebook, there wasn’t one in the first KS campaign. They were standard flimsy rule books like in most board games. Only now in the 1.5 version when you are a returning backer and spend $20 you get a rule update pack for every maiden pledge you have. Do I like it no. I don’t even no why the rules are already changing. I played only a couple of games and I haven’t seen anything wrong yet. Maybe it… Read more »
I should have said “Hard Copy” not “Hard Cover” that’s my mistake. I would be fine with them giving you a Hard Cover in the Kickstarter (which they didn’t but for arguments sake) then a Soft Cover 1.5 Update it’s the fact that the book is physical that matters. Absolutely it’s not just JoA. There’s a difference between a Day One FAQ with one or two little things in it, that happens and yeah it might be annoying but it’s just an honest mistake corrected in good faith. Bringing out an entirely new book before even mailing out the first… Read more »
Considering the logistics of releasing a game like JoA world wide … I kind of doubt they’d have achieved 100% fullfillment if they had waited a year. There simply are more than a few countries on this planet with terrible logistics (and corruption) I think part of the problem for JoA may have been that they hit stretchgoals so fast during their first run that they might have added ones that may have been planned for v1.5 … Even within 1.5 there is a ton of content unlocking that makes me wonder why the heck they’re not limiting the scope… Read more »
The battlefront angle was the first to come to my mind.
Im very much with Gerry on this and i didnt even back the kickstarter, i wouldnt want an outdated hardcopy rulebook in my brand new set. I was annoyed at SPQR making the rulebook redundant as i dont have time to bolt faqs onto my rulebook during games. I have other gaming options that do work so i find myself with a brand new game system i dont play now, and im the one that suffers for that not Warlord. Im with @elessar2590 a pdf so soon after the last kickstarter is not good enough. Is this the equivalent to… Read more »
I am not expert here but for me Joan of Arc it is just too soon, the thing came with 8ft of content so I am not bashing the content but the one thing it does not need is more of the same. I have played it once and it took 2 hours to set up and 45 minutes to play, it was fun but I think it probably needs a serious streamline… If the rules already months later needs a 1.5 then probably lacked beta testing but I think the right thing to do here is admitting that it… Read more »
I’m of the opinion (my asshole smells of roses and is always right) that customers and companies should be free to do whatever they want within the confines of the law, and crowdfunding is a financial market, not a shop, but I would agree it is fairly shitty to start a new fund raising campaign for an updated version of a game when many of the investors have not even seen the benefits of the the first campaign. Yes, it is nice that they providing a free update for the first KS backers, but it is also a bit of… Read more »
You’re right that they didn’t break any laws and the laws shouldn’t be changed but we as a community need to stop supporting this kind of nonsense or we’ll turn into the Video Gaming market where half finished games and day one patches are just part of the deal. I’m not sure if a Kickstarter Backer is legally recognised as a proper investor but maybe doing that would solve some issues.
Warlord are right up there so are many others.
Do crowd funding websites even fall under any specific legislation yet? Or are they in a big legal gap they are that “new”. Not something I would know anything about.
What about consumer rights protection laws along the lines of something is “fit for purpose”?
Do crowdfunded projects exist outside of that legislation?
And if they are, should they be brought in?
@hobbyhub to address your 3rd question, crowd funding platforms currently provide cheap, risk free finance, which it could be argued is beneficial to an economy as it can encourage innovation. If you place the risk on the producer rather than the investor, well, crowd funding may not exist anymore.
We also only really focus on the bad stories about crowd funding. I would say the upside of crowd funding is definitely on the consumers side.
Thanks @robert, had forgotten why crowdfunding existed in the first place.… I think others might need a reminder from time to time.
The problem is that it is very difficult to define ‘fit for purpose’ in legal terms. With every day objects it can be done, because there are rules and regulations regarding product safety that need to be met. The line between a buggy game and one that was designed to be broken is impossible to define. And I’d argue it’s even harder to prove that they did it on purpose (you’d need documented proof and whistle blowers for that). I kind of doubt that with the exception of the few fraudsters out there that’s next to impossible. In the end… Read more »
Paradox Games are the developers of EU4. They also have a range of other computer games like Crusader Kings, Victoria that really go into the resources, development side of things as well as moving armies around and fighting. Like Gerry I have never been able to get my head around them either. I need simple computer games when I ever play them – though I do have too many hours in Civ.
The whole Paradox range is amazing, Victoria II is one of the best although EU4 and Crusader Kings II are very close behind.
is EU that Miss Europa Disco Dancer ones?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCKhj1r6kgM
Yes – but it is easier to type EU4 as I don’t know what the U stands for!
EU = Europa Universalis
= ‘Hearts of Iron’ = WW 2 grand strategy scale (some would argue that HoI 4 is ‘too casual’
= Crusader Kings = medieval era grand strategy
= EU = everything from early medieval (discovery of the Americas) to American war of independence …
HoI is probably the ‘easiest’ of the set to get into, but it is a beast of a game.
AvP was the same, 2nd Ed was released before KS backers had recieved their 1st Ed (I traded some of my non-existent kits in for the v2 upgrade set in order to finally get my stuff)
Lloyd is a treasure
I’m still waiting for my birthday kiss, and Gerry gets cuddles… not jealous at all 🙁
He certainly is.Just for a moment i thought he’d had enough and was leaving the studio…
Was I getting passionate about the subject?
You did seem a little more than your normal laid back self, you may have raised an eyebrow!
I thought i saw an eyebrow or two go up in captain alpha strikes direction…
It would have to be more of a gentleman’s agreement but a good showing for a games company would surely be if you had originally backed a game (thus it exists because of you taking a bet on it) and within a 6 month period of it landing there is a significant rules update those original backers should get a new version of the book covering shipping costs. This would cost the business but I would argue these updates did not pop out of the blue they must have known about this for weeks/months even before, so protect your reputation… Read more »
I do agree with @warzan in that this is all on us as the consumer and thus I reflect on myself and lack of self-control in backing KS instead of spending more time on is this filling hole I am interested in and by interested I mean genuinely beyond just it looks nice and you get a lot of it.. do I believe in years to come this will still be valued proposition(lets face in a lot of KS that would be a no if we were honest). Not sure of my points here but more for myself and I… Read more »
I’d personally recommend looking less into miniature games and more into board games for playability, the ones I’ve backed have always had return value whereas the Bones IV has been untouched.
It’s board games that are the problem. Miniature games are beautiful things
And I haven’t even got you into Battletech yet!
Wait till I persuade them to do Bootcamp!
And BT can be a miniatures game, personally I think it plays better that way as you can’t number crunch which can be the case with hex version
This is my current stand point @laughingboy, I have a garage full of stuff and decided months back that I would focus on my key hobby interests and then see what I can do around the edges (different rule sets and the like) where I can use the same models but in a different way. The only time I do KS now is if I see something that would support this, therefore I recently backed the battle systems one so I can expand on my terrain and I backed Mel’s one so I have a book of tips to make… Read more »
Well listened to todays show, rather than watch, this one is ideal for that. Interesting show guys! passed a very frustrating hour of phaffing at work. Do see Gerry’s points of view, though as not involved in this KS it hadnt flagged any question from myself. I had jumped into Monoliths re-release of Mythic Battles, but that had been out some time, had played some games(kevins played a fair amount of scenarios till he got Mythic outed) so basically we both thought of it as chance to get bits we didnt go for 1st time, and had no problem with… Read more »
Just to be clear I hadn’t backed JoA so I’m not pissed off and arguing from my own outlay.
This was just something that a few community members had mentioned so I was discussing from their point of view.
@avernos kudo’s to you for that, it was a point that needed raising as I said hadnt crossed my mind.
The voice of the people!
You are right though.
This v1.5 is too soon so this response from backers is not exactly coming out of left field.
However … I also kind of doubt that there is an ideal moment, because with a game this big there’s always going to be people who haven’t played it all before the ‘next version’.
Who called is a bathroom magazine rack and not a Loo Read?
Errata has always been a thing. In providing a free PDF I think they’ve fulfilled their obligations to the letter…that can be disappointing because we’re a community giving over a hell of a lot of money to companies. Being able to get the printed update pack for $20 I think is reasonable, it shouldn’t have to exist but hey ho. My main issue is that 1st edition was sooo broken it makes me wonder did they actually play test it?
I heard an new expression a few weeks ago in work. “Sprint” making/developing things at a fast pace and giving it to the consumers, it doesn’t have to be finished, it doesn’t have to be perfect but is has to sell and then it will be worked on the make it better because consumers are demanding things now and don’t want to wait for a year on you to make a finished product. If they can’t get it from you they will go somewhere else even if it is worse than what you want to offer because they can get… Read more »
The word “Sprint”, in that context, comes from the “Agile” software development methodology – don’t know if it is used elsewhere. It is used to get product in the hands of users as quickly as possible, a block at a time. Iteration is one of its features… Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development A good example in the gaming industry of this might be “Godtear” from Steamforged Games (https://steamforged.com/godtear). I don’t know how many iterations of the rules were released to the community. but there were a few. I know that Team Covenant were really deep into the game….. And it started with… Read more »
It does read very similar to how “sprint” was explained to us. It was used bye someone in higher management and it seems that they are starting to use the term “sprint” in other branches. The talk of the guys made me think of it. I do think it isn’t easy as a developer/publisher of games these days, especially if you have to go through kickstarter. Being only able to test so much with the resources and people you might have before going to kickstarter. Then all the people who back your project with exceptions that they get a perfect… Read more »
How do we know if Joan of Arc 1.5 isnt another rushed product? Is Mythics business model strongly reliant on constant kickstarter? If not, why not just wait a bit longer and produce 2.0 instead?
I dont know the answer to these questions. Although, I do think that Gerry has some solid arguments about Mythics choice. I do wonder what the driver behind Mythics choices is.
Feeling a bit conservative I’d rather put my money on Pendrakens minis than Mythics.
@warzan I found a bunch of Bathroom Magazine Holders on Amazon! The only problem is that they are all metal wire and not the classic style.
I am with Gerry on this. I would want what I paid for. A scenario; If you went into a retail store and bought a game. When paying, the clerk tells you he is up-charging you 20$ because the correct rulebook is in the box. You would never let that happen. The company owes what they promised. If an update happens in the future, sure pdf’s.
@warzan if you want magazine racks go to car boot sales. Every kid in NI probably made one in woodwork class over a period of 30 years. There must be thousands of them out there that people are trying to get rid of
If only he knew a joiner who could make him one…
Yeah but he would probably need 6 more people to help him build it
@warzan if you need magazine rack go to the nearest collage and see if you can bye one off a joinery student for a tenner?
The issue for Mythic is not just one of games design quality and timings. Are they needing to bring games to market in order to keep their income stream running? They have a high profile and I’m sure that isn’t cheap. Their model means they can only use KS to generate income, they have zero income off the platform. The fact that they need to bring a reboot to market so soon may suggest that they need this money to keep lights on. I hope not but when you are trying to build a business and need to keep expanding… Read more »
back in the day people thought the devil and god real an watching so angles and beasts why not.
@avernos I am going to come at this from a slightly different viewpoint as many are already on your bandwagon. Firstly getting real beta testing done is tough and is normally done in house by the designers who are generally too close to their product and have already gone through so many rules changes and tweaks they get lost in their own versions. Community testing generally is a mixed bag of people who play a game or two and give feedback which shows they haven’t fully got down the rules, scenarios or the game/character synergies or those who have played… Read more »
A very balanced and unbiased argument @noyjatat. The self perpetuating business model of using funds from one to start the next really has me concerned Steamforged are one company that seems (certainly from the outside looking in) to follow that model. So many companies in the construction industry, multimillion pound ones have gone bust following that process of using funds that should be ring fenced to finish of a promised project to start another. And little by little they need more funds until they cannot finish the previous one, get found out and all falls down. As you say, some… Read more »
New games being offered before old ones are delivered will obviously cause resentment and there have been lots of threads where Kickstarter completion has been debated and decried. I haven’t played Joan of Arch so i don’t know to what degree it was considered broken. I think that if there’s a hefty FAQ required and you felt a corrected 1.5 rule set was a more effective and attractive way of sharing those changes then this new expansion and ruleset ideas seems ok as long as any updates are available free. I think my red line would be a game that… Read more »
While agree with what Gerry is saying about this and other rulesets its sadly hardly a new thing. For some of you older gamers out there I will just mention GDW and there endless errata
G’day folks! Joanne of Arc… ah, I admit that during the first kickstarter I was heavily thinking about getting it. Because I wanted to relive the glorious days of 15mm goodness that was in DBM. So I wanted historical stuff for the most, and LOTS of it as I wanted mass battles. And if was a one off (yes they said maybe in the retail. but would you go half of what you want on only a maybe?)… and if was a game not spreaded so of course I would have to have two equaly sized armies. I tried the… Read more »
I’ve spent some time now trying to put my thoughts together on the ToL:JoA v1.5 thing for a while and i’m finding it difficult. As long as i’ve been using KS,i’m not a part of one of the vocal minorities that spring up and ask ” give me more stuff / change this it’s rubbish / change that it offends me “.I simply want whatever game i’ve backed to succeed and fund ( big or small ) and deliver ( late or otherwise ). I do think Mythic should have had a pledge level ( $10,$15,$20,whatever ) in v1.5 purely… Read more »