VLOG: Bolt Action Desert Trenches
August 23, 2018 by johnlyons
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I only have experience with looking at WW1 trench systems but there seem to be far to many curves in your trench system.Again in WW1 they tend to be more in look and more right angles to restrict fields of fire. But if yours gives a good game then go for it
apparently ww2 trenches were a lot more ad hoc at the front lines and massively less engineered when compares to ww1 trenches.
So the design is deliberate. (John went into quite some depth on this with me lol)
torros is right in the reliance on sharp right angles to restrict fire, but in the case of north African trench networks around strategic centres they could be occupied and reoccupied several times, each time the orientation of the network having to be altered 180 degrees. This constant building, rebuilding and re-purposing changed the appearance beyond anything you’d find in a normal field manual. Chuck in the rapidity of movement, a lot of primitive defensive positions (later developed into full trench networks where the situation demanded) would be hastily dug as simple slit trenches wherever the terrain was conducive before… Read more »
The table looks great so far, guys! Thanks very much for the mention, @warzan – indeed we covered this topic in some depth in the spring early summer. @neves1789 helped write that series, and of course there’s the “Top Five Tips for Great War Gaming” interview video, where we spent about half the time talking about trenches and how to bring them to the table top. I actually like the curves. This isn’t Belgian or French clay, earth, and peat they’re digging in, but Egyptian sand. Also, as the guys say correctly, the WW2 trench systems seem to be less… Read more »
And, as a matter of preemptive defense, in case anyone else mentions it, most positional defenses in the desert were actually box-shaped. However, I feel that what the guys have going here is perfect given the scale they’re working with. Box fortifications like those seen at Bir el Harmat, Bir Hacheim, or the 150th Brigade Box (above) along the Galaza Line are yes … always shaped in some kind of enclosed “box” shape, BUT each side of that perimeter is at least a few hundred meters or even kilometers long. Ergo, zooming into 28mm on a 6′ table (only 336… Read more »
Shame my Uncle Sid’s not around, he was at 1st seige of Tobruk, mind whether he’d remember anything as he was suffering with malaria.
Any free time he had he was in the pub, if the family visited you wouldnt see him till closed, reckoned he could never get rid of the taste of sand from his mouth.
Sounds intense, @bobcockayne – do you know which unit he was with? 70th Infantry? 32nd Tank Brigade? I suppose I shouldn’t automatically assume a British unit, there were also 9th Australian, elements of Cyrenaica Command Corps Troops, and a Carpathian rifle brigade including Poles and Czechs.
Have’nt a clue @oriskany most of family were thin lipped about war experiences,
That only came out when mom was watching ‘Ice cold from Alex’ , she wasn’t even sure what seige, but as not captured assume was 1st. he wasnt in either staff infantry regs or 16/5th lancers as non of them served in desert. So he may have been a specialist such as Royal Engineers or Signals which would make him hard to trace.
So I was looking at photos of trenches etc in the desert and they were a lot more shallow than I realised and only seem to be present in the rockier areas. Carry on chaps
Hubba hubba
Is it worth using some of the plucked bits to glue into the bottom corners of some of the trenches to break up the flatness of them and maybe round the bottom corners a little?
Looking awesome guys!
we are going to experiment with a sand and cork mix for that I believe mate 🙂
this looks awesome… I find the kids poster paint – big 1 litre bottles from any good pound shop are great for this type of foam. The drawback is the drying time of water based paint
ooh … that is looking like a lot of pluckin’ work.
I do wonder if this sort of style limits the armies a bit too much in their placement of heavy weapons.
Unless it is pure infantry and the weapons are more like objectives as opposed to actual part of the force.
Something to simulate an attack on a flak battery perhaps ?
Ok! So I have to manœuvre a platoon aprox with a supporting mmg through that lot!
I hate you already!!!!!!
@oriskany can we have a crash course on German/Infantry platoon tactics ?
Seriosly guys awesome !
Think I’ve got some reading on a certain action!
One I’d never thought of, and one with a certain family history.
This being bolt-action those guns might not get a command die to use.
So I’m guessing we need to shell the heck out of them when we can or run like heck to the nearest trench.
@absolutely no worries, @bobcockayne – and thanks for asking.
There’s a Weekender interview being aired soon that goes ofver all the media we’ll hope to produce over the ramp up toward … and during the boot camp.
Long story short, these is a series of interviews planned “Scorpions of the Desert” where we look very specifically at squad, platoon, and company INFANTRY tactics particular to the Commonwealth and Axis in the Desert, circa 1941-42.
In other words, we have you covered. 😀
Just been looking at the plastic infantry sets, nice for Brits that 2″ mortar and boyes added.
Notice the German 60mm and their AT rifle are options, I’m not saying they weren’t used, but were they part of normal Afrika Korps squads?
Got the impression they had been phased out though not sure when.
Okay @bobcockayne – pretty sure I knew the answer to this but did some quick research just to be certain. Historically … 1941 German Schützen OOBs (KStN 131c and e … dated 01.02.1941) specify that … Each platoon in the schützenkompanie has a light mortar section, 5.0 cm Granatwerfer 36 (not 60mm). This section has 1 5.0 cm mortar, an NCO, and two assistant gunners. Each schützenkompanie has, in its HQ platoon, a HQ section, small baggage and ration sections, and finally an antitank section, made up of 1 NCO, 3 AT gunners, and 3 AT assistant gunners (7 men… Read more »
@oriskany , seriously thanks, yup they did use them but not,at platoon level, but may be avail as support in Bolt Action. Phew! more worried dementia was kicking in and I miss rembered something, based on an old MOD report I read on why German mortars were more effective than British , which concluded it eas in operational doctine, like tanks the Germans concentrated them. Though as a perspective platoon commander a platoon morter could solve a lot of problems. Trouble is the Britih 2″ mortar was operationally more a super Grenade Launcher, with an horrific rate of fire, though… Read more »
No worries at all, @bobcockayne – I do what I can. 😀 You’re right, though about the comparison to a glorified grenade launcher. With the 1960s we saw the introduction of weapons like the M79 “Blooper” – and later in the 80s the M203 grenade launcher attached to the forward hand guards of M16A2 service rifles (and all the NATO and Soviet equivalents). These pretty much spelled the end of all these platoon and company-grade mortars. The only real survivor was the American 60mm company mortar, just because it was a little bigger than German 5.0 cm and British 2-inch… Read more »
Its the anti-tank rifle in this image @oriskany
https://store.warlordgames.com/collections/new-releases/products/afrika-korps though you have now answered what the gun was in the ancient airfix ho/oo Afrika Korps infantry set was!!
Gotcha, @bobcockayne . Looks like you (and Warlord) are talking about the Panzerbüchse 38/39. This makes a lot more sense than the sPzB 41 I was talking about. I was scratching my head trying to figure out how two men were supposed to carry that thing around the battlefield (or more importantly, BETWEEN battlefields). Yeah, they stop making these in 1941. By 1942 they were converting them to a shorter-barreled version for launching grenades. The same 7.92mm German rifle caliber, interesting, just a VERY long cartridge for increased muzzle velocity, thus armour penetration (at least compared to usual rifles). Looks… Read more »
This is looking really cool. This is going to be a great table to play on. A good way to play the fog of war in a trench battle is to start with a mixed up deployment. First, deploy half your units as normal. For the other half, get a pack of cards; reds for one player, blacks for the other. Allocate a card to each remaining unit not yet deployed and then choose half of these cards to give to your opponent, they do the same. Shuffle your remaining cards with the ones from your opponent face down and… Read more »
Could be fun trying that out, as if the tables didn’t have enough problems @damon.
Lots of really great historical information on trenches in the comments. Where were you when I was making my little ones! Nothing clever to say. I like trenches and these look great. 🙂
Note from Historical Editor: Okay, the table is definitely great, as I’ve said above. All I would add as a note or suggestion (and maybe you guys already have this planned) … IF YOU WANT THIS TABLE TO BE WW2 DESERT TRENCH accurate, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE add: 1) Barbed wire – out in front of your machine guns, “light-to-medium,” nothing like what you see in WW1. 2) Minefields. Not kidding on this one. I realize minefields may be a rules addendum we don’t want to get into for the boot camp. Then at least have some of the classic “signs”… Read more »
I have 8″x2″ minefield and barbed wire sections I can bring down if you don’t want them to be a permanent feature.
Of course I don’t speak for the team, @avernos , but I think that would be great as that way the wire and mines could be modular and movable or removable. I don’t want to create rules complications (i.e., will we be incorporating BA rules for minefields, I know boot camps are usually “entry level” for new players) so we can easily remove them – or just leave on for cosmetic / historical value only, not rules mechanics. Might also be interesting to try “channelizing” – using mines and wire placed by defensive player to block off certain sections of… Read more »
And dummy minefields
That’s a nice historical addition, too. 😀
Not that he needs agreeing with but @oriskany is completely on the ball with above, there were extensive minefields at Tobruk (in fact they show Stukas bombing them to make a path in the film @Ice Cold from Alex’) and were a major factor at Alamien, the 1st flail tanks on Matildas appeared for that battle.
Yeah, there’s a reason they keep me around. 😀
this looks great! the amount of thought and work put into this is amazing. I would’ve just used a torch and followed the lines but that wouldn’t have match up with being able to switch the ends…strong work guys, strong work.
*Intetesting fact number 5695* Talking of minefields. The classic photo of mine detector you see being used in the desert ie long pole,flat dish on the end being swept over the ground by men in shorts was a Polish invention. I didn’t know this until a few days ago
Awwww yes. Thi is going to be incredible!!! Great work so far fellas 😀
This looks like a lot of fun, you built a board I can safely use my 25lbr ?
Great! got to worry about belt fed artillery and the mad minute!
Awesome project @johnlyons and @dignity (long time no speak mate by the way, how are you?).
Has inspired me to do something similar for a 40k board. Where do you get (and whats it known as) the foam for this project?
Great to see you on the site again, @davebpg ! 😀 😀 😀
Yes, apologies for my hiatus.
@davebpg – hope all is well. 😀
Surely there is only one question here…. can I take it home with me? 😀
Cannot wait to play on these.
You’d have to hire a plane, ship etc , not sure it would fit in you luggage Allowance.
call dibs on the cool trench table!!!! that looks really cool, great work lads
Great stuff Guy’s the table’s are going to be fantastic for playing on have you seen the mythbusters on trenches about blast wave’s if you want an up to date look on trenches.
Its episode 191 Guy’s.
Just a question, I believe you used scissors and or blade knife, would not a hot knife have been easier and faster to cut the foam?
Very awesome work on those trenches, i’ve always fancied doing a trench system myself. I’m really looking forward to seeing the end result but awesome walk through so far ?
Great stuff!!
Looking for the Tutoring, Skill and Idea buttons I can hit!